Why does denouncing delay a DOW?

In my experience, one can predict a “surprise” DOW almost to the turn by going into the trade screen every turn, and checking if the low ball offering for a spare lux / resources is even worse than previously. But that is so tedious!

So, I got in the habit of reloading the turn before the DOW, looking for other “tells” and seeing who I could sign up for a defensive pact. Call it cheating if you like, but it leads me to a couple AI behavior questions I am hoping you might help me understand.

Much to my surprise, the DPs never prevented or even delayed a DOW. Why wouldn't the DOWing AI take this into consideration? Of course, the DPs are very weak, 9 out of 10 times, maybe more frequently, my DOF buddies declare peace as soon they can. I figure there is at least some collateral damage going on, but not enough to make the reloads worth the bother, so I stopped this habit for a long while.

Nowadays, instead of the defensive pacts, if I really need to delay the war, I reload the turn before and denounce the DOWing. The first time, this was just out of spite. But then war never came! I have tried it about a dozen times since. About half the time, denouncing has no effect (which is what I would expect). The other half the time the denouncing gets me a few turns or more to better position my always-too-few troops.

So this experience leads to my titular questions: Why does denouncing delay a DOW?

They might ask other to join war after you denounce and they say we are not ready wait for 10 turns. Just a guess

I did experiment with preventing wars a while ago. The most reliable way i found was this: Greece is about to attack you. Pay Greece to attack Morocco and denounce Morocco yourself. Even better if Greece's DOW would be a backstab, since they will have to deal with multiple denouncements from unexpected angles, shifting their attention from You to other targets.

I'll try your method and report consistent results, if any.

Oh yes, paying one or the other AI to war is much more effective. Absolutely the go-to strategy.

Reloading the turn before and then denouncing is a technique for desperate scoundrels like myself, when no one will take a war bribe.

But I am surprised it works at all, and dumbfounded that it actually seems to work pretty well.

I find denouncing actually expedites a DOW, although I cannot be sure. In my experience if I denounce a civ and I'm not ready for war(ie no units) then I get DOWed. For accurate results can Fire Tuner be used?

Yes, in general, denouncing make the AI hate you, and hate makes a DOW more likely. So yes, given sufficient turns, denouncing absolutely expedites or even causes a DOW.

However, in the very short term, my experience is that denouncing frequently delays or even prevents a DOW. This makes no sense to me, so I am asking: Why does it work?

But I understand if folks are skeptical, and want to try this for themselves. Keep in mind, it is not 100% reliable. So, before asserting that I am making this up, please try it at least three times, with three different civs, in at least two different games.

AI denounces you BECAUSE he doesn't yet have the military to beat you yet and is seeking allies. If he had enough to beat you already he'd simply DOW you and skip the denouncement.

On Defensive Pacts, I sign them when I'm 90% sure that I'm going to be attacked and simply do it to ruin the relationship between the AI that's about to DOW me and my DP partners. I don't expect the partners to actually help in the war.

Joncnunn, that is why the AI denounces the player. I am asking: Why does the player denouncing the AI frequently deter the AI from DOWing?

All I can figure is that the AI perceives the denouncement as a indication of strength. A human player might be tricked that way, but it makes little sense to me that the AI would.

I believe the denouncement removes your cap from his view because the embassy is gone or something. So I believe it has to do with him being able to see his target.

I've seen deity players denounce the moment the see a scout poking around. I have done it myself and it works sometimes.

Now it sounds like we're onto something: removing embassies. I've been doing mutual Accept Embassy/Open Borders deals with "friends" whom I knew full and well to be fake. They turn around and denounce me, goodbye embassy. But I got my Open Borders and Gershwin's doing his rock concert tour for his people.

It is my policy to deny embassy requests until my 'country' is established. IE, I already have the city spots I want and am working on a credible defense. I don't get declared on very often.

This explanation sounds very probably the right one.
I have been leaning on this method (Denounce the imminent attacker) for a while, never sure exactly why its effective.

The AI LOVES being able to see whats going on inside your turf before they DOW. Shaka constantly has 4 or 5 units floating on my borders. Sometimes he want open borders just for that purpose it seems.

The next logical question:
Does keeping a carpet of tough units around the capitol have any impact on the arrival of the DOW?

Can you move a bunch of units in there at the last minute and turn back the war before it happens and without a Denouncement?

JeSuisNapoleon said:

This explanation sounds very probably the right one.
I have been leaning on this method (Denounce the imminent attacker) for a while, never sure exactly why its effective.

The AI LOVES being able to see whats going on inside your turf before they DOW. Shaka constantly has 4 or 5 units floating on my borders. Sometimes he want open borders just for that purpose it seems.

The next logical question:
Does keeping a carpet of tough units around the capitol have any impact on the arrival of the DOW?

Can you move a bunch of units in there at the last minute and turn back the war before it happens and without a Denouncement?

Click to expand...

I doubt it. I believe they need to be there to deter the decision to strike before the decision is made. Moving them later would be too late unless perhaps it was a very strong unit, like a generation ahead. After I accept an embassy, that's when I start parking pikes outside the cap. Palace Guards.

I did experiment with preventing wars a while ago. The most reliable way i found was this: Greece is about to attack you. Pay Greece to attack Morocco and denounce Morocco yourself. Even better if Greece's DOW would be a backstab, since they will have to deal with multiple denouncements from unexpected angles, shifting their attention from You to other targets.

Click to expand...

Can i ask, why denounce morocco?

Yeah, but what you brought up is the possibility of removing embassies. All our tactics to date sound more along the lines of never having an embassy there in the first place. Accepting embassies with intent to remove them later sounds like it has potential to improve our game a little.

just like most people, I dont allow embassies until I'm "settled down".
However, later in the game I want to meet people and trade, so embassies happen.

the only mechanism I know of to remove embassies is a Denouncement or a DOW. It happens if I do it, or if its done to me.

I suppose if the embassy is accepted with a trade of GpT or similar it will disappear after X turns right?

Not that I'm aware of. A denouncement or DoW is the only way I know.

I accept embassies for gold from my neighbors all the time, knowing I'm going to DoW them later for a little "living space".

I never got any of this either. I tried denouncing an enemy that was amassing on my borders and that never did anything. Sometimes an AI is set on a course around your territory to get to a barb camp, so don't jump...

When I hand out early Embassies, most of the time I get forward settled faster than I would if I did not. In fact once the AI has an embassy it feels safe to start smacking it's cities all around my Capitol, very annoying. Although they may still do this regardless if they're close enough...

The best way to anticipate an attack is to use scouts around your opponents Capitol early which is his production and organization city and you will see him getting ready to move your way most of the time if you go around the edges of his border.

DOF/Denouncements/GG land claims only seem to make a permanent enemy. Bribing an AI works so far.. I have done it 3 times with 1 CIV and it did nothing as with a Defensive Treaty he didn't really put his heart into the War. Seems CSs fight better sometimes if they're in the direct path of the AI CIVs army. I have also watched AI toy with another AI...as if it's not really engaging it's armies due to fear of losing it's units. Really odd... Although if it were me it would go all out...


To Buy off a Civ to do something, you better see if you're getting your moneys worth...if it's not something it looks like it covets nearby or if he doesn't hate that Civ or if he's a warmonger.. I might sell off that Lux item or two and buy an Army and kill him instead... Unless I am trying to stop RAs...

Just to be clear, I have used this reload-the-turn-before-and-denounce technique early, mid, and late game; it gets me turns about half the time. It is not just for the early DOW while you are trying to get established. It is perfectly compatible with whatever else you are doing to keep the AI unbalanced.

I don't quite see how losing the embassy is the key to why this works. Embassy is site on one tile. Mid game, the AI prolly has a spy in your cap, and that's site on 7 tiles, embassy or no. I am thinking it must make the AI question its odds, double guessing that it has underestimated the player. But this guess would make more sense if denouncing always bought the player one turn at least, and sometimes it gets me nothing.

beetle said:

Nowadays, instead of the defensive pacts, if I really need to delay the war, I reload the turn before and denounce the DOWing. The first time, this was just out of spite. But then war never came! I have tried it about a dozen times since. About half the time, denouncing has no effect (which is what I would expect). The other half the time the denouncing gets me a few turns or more to better position my always-too-few troops.

Click to expand...

That seems like an overkill as the AI has a bad habit of rallying up on the border long before the DoW. If the war is unwelcomed one denouncing usually delays the evitable several turns or most likely prevents it alltogether and moreover after denouncing the attacker is much easier to bribe to go elsewhere.