Worth it to switch from Republic to Democracy?

[jkp1187]

Here's the situation...I thought I'd throw it out to the general public. I'm in a multiplayer game that I play with a two friends via LAN at my friend's house a couple of times a week. Thus, I can't provide a save file, but I'll describe the situation and see what people think.

Surviving Civs: England (me), Germany (human), Persia (human), Russia, France, Arabia, Scandinavia.

Power rankings: 1. England 2. Arabia (though declining), 3. France 4. Russia 5. Germany 6. Persia 7. Scandinavia

Score: 1. Arabs (declining) 2. England 3. France 4. Persia 5. Russia 6. Germany 7. Scandinavia

Difficulty: Monarch

Map size: Large/Continents/70%/normal

Year: ~ 1750

Geography: England has a small island off the coast of Europe all to itself; "Europe" is where France, Scandinavia, and Russia live. Germany is a mid-sized island by itself, between Europe and "Asia" (where the Persians, Arabs, and the former Zulus live).

England controls the home island, as well as a series of "stepping stone" islands leading up to the French coast, as well as Grenoble (a vital city I took from France a long time ago that has both coal AND oil), a group of islands (whimsically named the "Azores") north of Germany, 1/2 way between Europe and Asia, and a chunk of former Zululand I took from the dogpile on the Zulus. Recently, I just completed a war against the Arabs where I secured additional oil resources. I have a forbidden palace in the former Zululand, so corruption isn't too awfully bad there, especially once courthouses are built.

The problem is that I just recently entered the modern era, and need some time and money to build up the new holdings in "Asia" and to get back in the technology game. France already has Rocketry, and has built up a sizeable air force and is starting to crank out tanks. (France is also engaged in a war against Russia...I think Russia is also building tanks). Germany will get a free Modern Era tech as soon as he discovers Flight (which I believe he's going for now). I'm wondering if it'd be worth the "down time" to go to a revolution to get to Democracy. I have an empire spread out over the world, so any reduction of corruption on the fringes will be a great help.

I thought about COmmunism, but (a) the only people I'm in a position to fight are Persia and Arabia, (b) this game appears headed to a space victory or diplomatic win (and given all the fighting and backstabbing that's been going on, I doubt I'll win that), and it's likely that a quick capital-grab war against France or Germany will be necessary at some point to stop a space launch.

Opinions? Is it worth a gov't switch this late in the game (and risk a 7 turn anarchy)?

[rysingsun]

after the 7 year anarchy it will take probably about 70 turns to make up the lost gold and shields. yes 10 for 1. and democracies often fall into anarchy during long wars. so i would say stay with republic. if you had a religious civ (one turn anarchy) i would say switch to democracy.

[morchuflex]

I concur with Rysingsun.
From my XP, in most situations, switching from Rep to Dem will result in a 0 to 5% increase in your revenues, depending on the size of your empire and the number of your troops. Certainly not worth researching two optional techs! Now, if you already have these techs, it may be slightly beneficial in the long run. But very often, in a tough game, the decision is made in the early industrial age, not in the very late game. Going into anarchy now could be highly detrimental.
I personnally have come to ignore democracy completely in Civ3.

[Drakan]

I agree with the above. I just don't find it worth it in my gameplay changing over to Demo unless you're religious and therefore able to offset the social unrest. Stick to Republic.

[jkp1187]

Yeah, I was inclined to stick with Republic, too, but thought it might be worth it if I could get a short anarchy period, but was really nervous about taking the risk. I DO have Universal Suffrage, too, otherwise I wouldn't have even considered it.

Would opinions be different if I was committed to changing to COMMUNISM and an all-out military assault?

[Drakan]

Yeop. Commy is the way to go if you have a nice large Empire and you want to kick some bigtime ....

[crazyluke2001]

If your enemies are ahead in tech, and diplomacy victory seems out of the picture, then the only remaining victories are military and culturet military is more fun =D
So yea go commy and take over the tech leader by using a load of artillery.

[jkp1187]

Originally Posted by crazyluke2001

If your enemies are ahead in tech, and diplomacy victory seems out of the picture, then the only remaining victories are military and culturet military is more fun =D
So yea go commy and take over the tech leader by using a load of artillery.

See, that's the thing....France is only one tech ahead (Rocketry...I'm working on Comptuers right now, just so I can get some good defenders; I have NO RUBBER AT ALL -- an attempt to take it from France failed because France had ~ 130 Infantry running around...and he was moving ~50 of them toward my ONE CITY in Europe that had both precious oil and coal resources) but I have THREE oil resources)

Germany is one tech behind (doesn't have flight yet), but as soon as he gets flight, he'll get a freebie modern era tech, so really the three of us are neck-and-neck. I could start whomping on France, who IS ahead, but then Germany will have a clear shot at a space win while I'm fighting that war. I could hit Germany, but it's a human player, and he's now armed with Panzers and battleships, while all I have is a huge fleet of Men o' War (I didn't have time or resources to upgrade while I was busy fighting off approximately 100 Arabian swordsmen, archers, riflemen, and cavalry).

Don't forget, in this game, England is an island nation with colonies on no fewer than ten other islands and continents....and he could do me a world of hurt with BB's and Panzers (to say nothing of the fact that he's a human, not AI player!) Also -- being humans, we've all been somewhat reasonable about trading luxuries and resources.....So I think I'm locked into being peaceful for the time being....absent a last-minute nuke/lunge for a capital city to stop a space launch.

Russia (AI) and Persia (human) are wild cards....they're maybe two techs back, but Persia has a huge empire, and Russia has a well-developed one.

Unless I'm missing something....if someone can think of a better idea, let me know.

[El Loco]

Stay in rep is all ill say

[Geofflightning]

Good idea.

[rysingsun]

human players are your worst threat. only a human would sell off half his city improvements to get gpt to rush spaceship parts. humans are brutal compared to ai. death stacks of artillery dont kill off human players anywhere as easily as they kill off ai. stack 5 units with your 40 artillery at the end of your turn and the ai wont usually defeat it. stack 20 defenders with your artillery and watch a human player throw every unit in his army against it to take that stack of artillery. and he wont take heavy losses because he will commit 40 artillery to the cause of softening up the stack. human players can be evil. respect them.

so while you may keep an ai from winning the space race by attacking them if a human is neck and neck with you you need to forget about the ai and figure out how to beat the REAL players.

[Longasc]

jkp1187, I think a savegame would have been easier than to write it all down.

I know, people rarely look into other's savegames, but I do.

MY suggestion: Democracy is crap - at least in Civ3. War Weariness will be a problem, you have no unit support.

150% Workers and a bit less corruption overall are the advantages.

But only a Religious Civ should benefit from Demo, as all others would probably need 6+ turns to change to Demo. It might also crumble and cause problems under constant pressure.

No, go with Republic and later on perhaps with Communism.

[Crimso]

Yeah, one revolution is enough... btw, what percentage of your cities need to be revolting for anarchy to come about (as suggested by rysingsun)?

This would happen to me all the time in Civ II (I just got lazy after conquering 3/4 of the world), but never in III.

[TimBentley]

Originally Posted by Crimso

Yeah, one revolution is enough... btw, what percentage of your cities need to be revolting for anarchy to come about (as suggested by rysingsun)?

It is based on the amount of war weariness you have, not on unhappiness (although that's the obvious side effect of war weariness). If you want more specific information, read Oystein's article on war weariness in the War Academy.

[Trev]

Democracy is most useful when you are the clear tech leader and run 100% science and pay for all civ costs from money earned through trading, as its lowest level of corruption allows the learning of techs to be maximised, this is not your current situation, so stay with republic, run a high tax rate and steal the required techs using spies from the tech leaders so that you gain tech parity. However consider researching with maybe 40% science a tech the AI will not research early, eg Nuclear Power, Laser and the bottom row (they will prioritise Space Flight)and get Space flight with a trade or theft, this way you can take the outright tech lead

[Heavy Q]

Show us a screenshot of your world map, please.

[magritte]

I've been trying 5 city challenge and found the republican-democracy switch worthwhile. In order to maintain a strong enough military presence to avoid being attacked, I've been maintaining a lot of units/city (partly cause I built the Statue of Zeus), so the 1 gpt unit support of Democracy vs Republic helps me more than the 3 units/city free of charge but 2 gpt per unit above that.

A secondary issue--generally in late medieval/early industrial, all the A.I. civs tend to go democratic, so the A.I.'s generally like you better as a democracy. Of course, they all go fascist later... I do feel that in most cases, it's not worth the civil disorder to make the switch, but there are times.

[sandmandh]

If you're playing for score, I've seen some people even stay in monarchy as anything higher gives you very little advantage, and they didn't want the anarchy. If you're warring but want to keep up in tech or gold, republic is optimal. All-out sustained war - of course comm or monarchy. Democracy is really sub-optimal unless you reach a stage in the game where you have your little pets and you don't care about the anarchy hit.

[jkp1187]

Thanks for the interest. I've attached a few pictures here.... We're in the endgame, and it's down to whether or not I can massage enough AI civs for a diplomatic victory before Persia launches a spaceship.

I've been having trouble with warmaking, just b/c of the time constraints and (more importantly) the unit automation in multiplayer just doesn't work the way it does in single player. that cost me a whole stack of Artly, meaning it's highly unlikely I'll be able to trash Persepolis.

I sure as heck hope they fix some of this ridiculousness in Civ 4....

[Choffy]

One good tip could be Trade Embargo. Good way to stuck a player and can still allow you UN possible victory.
Invest some money to have a global AI trade embargo against the human players (be it ressources or science).