Question about 15th century europe and pikeman

[kevincompton]

I was thinking about the Pikeman in Civ3 conquests AOD, and i wanted some feedback about actual military at that time.

1490

1. Were pikeman used? If so would they be a good defender for this era.
2. Were flintlock used? If so what civ3 application would be most accurate?
3. What was the main artillery? Were cannons in common use yet or was there still other bombardment in use (like trebuchet?)?

[Grogs]

Originally Posted by kevincompton

1490

I wish I had some of my really good military history books from college with me. I'll answer as best as I can with what I've got and my somewhat flaky memory. That's a tough time also, as things were changing so quickly that probably no 2 countries' armies looked the same.

1. I'd say this is a definite yes on both counts. The Swiss started using the pike in 1422. In 1499, they defeated Emperor Maximilian, who then started building his own pikes, and to quote the book I have, "The pike was to dominate battlefields for much of the next two centuries."

2. They were around (depending on where you were in the world), but I'm not sure how useful they were at the time. I'm not sure that they started developing the great squares (pikes on the outside, muskets on the inside) until the late 16th Century. If anything in Civ3, I'd say they would be an attack-type unit, although I have a hard time making them more powerful than MI. I'm thinking maybe a cheaper version of the longbowman would be appropriate (it took *so* much longer to train a longbowman than a musketman. That's probably the number one reason they went away.)

3. 1490 is probably a little early for field guns. The battle of Ravena in 1512 is supposedly the first time field artillery was ever used effectively. There was certainly artillery before that, such as the Turkish guns used to take Constantinople in 1453, but I get the impression they were either built on site, lugged there by a hundred horses, or carried on a ship. For seiges, which is what they're used for most of the time in Civ 3 anyway, I think they'd be appropriate for the time.

[Turner]

Moderator Action: Not really a Civ3 question, although it is somewhat on topic.

Thread moved to World History.

[kevincompton]

Great info!

1. So what types of units accompanied an army of Pikes? What was the attack unit (charging break through the lines type of deal).

2. Attack unit it is then although it has a hard time existing if the MI is stronger. Didn't arquebusiers also have light armour and swords that they implimented in close combat? If so then the lighter armour would have made them more maneuverable and heavy armour would have been useless against fire anyways. Just a thought...this is a tough one.

3. this is what i was hopeing, I love the trebuchet.

[kevincompton]

I'm also trying to balance my Hussar vs. dragoon. Any suggestions?

[Illustrious]

Originally Posted by kevincompton

1. So what types of units accompanied an army of Pikes? What was the attack unit (charging break through the lines type of deal).

Well, if you're talking of the Swiss, the attack unit was the pikemen! They utilised tactics not dissimilar to the old Greek phalanx, marching forward and simply pushing their way through the enemy lines. This tended to work well early on, when enemy gunpowder weapons were poor, but in later times the Swiss got themselves shot to pieces.

[Terje]

I imagined the pikemen were used earlier than 1422? Well, I have to ckeck my scources...

As for the attack tactics of pikemen, it was somewhat similar to the greek hoplite phalanx, yes.
They used the so called "porcupine" formation, which I probably don't have to explain to you haw worked... :P

The pikemen were among the first troops to beat the heavy cavalery of the middle ages. The other troop, was the English logbowmen. who at a battle in France (I think...) during the 110 years war, slaughtered the French cavalery before they even got to the first line of archers...

Funny thing: After losing to the pikemen for the first time (in Holland somewhere; the pikes drove the knights into a swamp), the nobles thought that the reason they had been beaten so easy, was that the pikes were on foot, so in the next battle (sorry about all the missing names; but I read about this in Montgomery's History of Warfare last year... my memory is beginning to fade) the cavalery got off their horses, thinking that they, who were much better armed and trained, would decimate the pikes like cattle.
Only problem was that it of course wasn't the infantry factor that was most important....

[Richard Cribb]

Originally Posted by Terje

I imagined the pikemen were used earlier than 1422? Well, I have to ckeck my scources.......

Correct. The battle of Laupen (1339) may be the first time an army of infantry, pikemen and halberdiers, defeated a complete army with cavalry and everything on a plain field. Before that successful examples of the use of polearm weapons against cavalry are Courtrai 1302, Bannockburn 1314 and Morgarten 1315.

Originally Posted by Terje

As for the attack tactics of pikemen, it was somewhat similar to the greek hoplite phalanx, yes.
They used the so called "porcupine" formation, which I probably don't have to explain to you haw worked... :P

Correct again. The pikeman is one of my favourites in military history. Common people with long sticks thrashing haughty noblemen. Sweet!

Originally Posted by Grogs

2. They were around (depending on where you were in the world), but I'm not sure how useful they were at the time.

Hmm. I thought flintlock weapons were introduced succesfully early in the 17th century? Wasn't those early firearms matchlock-based?

Originally Posted by kevincompton

2. Didn't arquebusiers also have light armour and swords that they implimented in close combat?

Below is an illustration:


In any case, arquebusiers/musketeers needed pikemen for protection, just think about what a difficult procedure it was to load such a weapon.... I think that in your mod you could consider to use two types of pikemen, one offensive and one defensive with different stats available with different techs.

[Terje]

Originally Posted by luceafarul

Correct again. The pikeman is one of my favourites in military history. Common people with long sticks thrashing haughty noblemen. Sweet!

Hehe, gotta love that!

[Grogs]

Originally Posted by luceafarul

Correct. The battle of Laupen (1339) may be the first time an army of infantry, pikemen and halberdiers, defeated a complete army with cavalry and everything on a plain field. Before that successful examples of the use of polearm weapons against cavalry are Courtrai 1302, Bannockburn 1314 and Morgarten 1315.

...

Hmm. I thought flintlock weapons were introduced succesfully early in the 17th century? Wasn't those early firearms matchlock-based?

Interesting. The book I've got says Laupen was fought primarily with halbers and the like. It goes on to say that even after the Battle of Arbedo in 1422, pikes still represented only about 1/3 of total polearms. Maybe just a case of 2 different authors drawing different conclusions with the info available? In any case, I think we can all agree that the pike would be a very appropriate weapon for a game based in 1490.

As for the flintlock/matchloock question, I think you're right about that. I wasn't paying attention to the terminology as much as just the question of 'are there guns on the battlefield?'

[Richard Cribb]

Originally Posted by Grogs

Interesting. The book I've got says Laupen was fought primarily with halbers and the like. It goes on to say that even after the Battle of Arbedo in 1422, pikes still represented only about 1/3 of total polearms. Maybe just a case of 2 different authors drawing different conclusions with the info available? In any case, I think we can all agree that the pike would be a very appropriate weapon for a game based in 1490.

You are probably right. I was just quoting from my memory and I have never seen any detailed analysis of this battle. It is some years since I studied history, and even if I specialized in the early modern epoque, I never read particulary much military history. In any case I believe there was pikemen at Laupen even if they were not the main part of the Swiss army.
And yes, the pikeman must be included.Absolutely.
By the way Kevin, I forgot to wish you good luck with your project. It sounds great and I for one look forward to try it!

[kevincompton]

By the way Kevin, I forgot to wish you good luck with your project. It sounds great and I for one look forward to try it!

Why thank you! Almost done .

Heres my conclusion and what i will impliment.

Pikeman defense
swiss pikemen equal defense and attack
arquebusiers attack

[crazyluke2001]

Someone was talking about where longbowmen dominated French knights during 100 year war.

Agincourt. A numerically superior French force of noblemen was massacred by a small force of well trained peasant longbowmen.

[kevincompton]

Anyone know anything about Hussars and Dragoons?

[pawpaw]

Originally Posted by kevincompton

Anyone know anything about Hussars and Dragoons?

hussars can be either polish heavy cavalrymen or hungarian light cavalry, the polish were nobles, the hungarians sprung up along the hungarian/ottoman border during their endless wars. real dragoons as we know started in 17th century france, but all nations at one time or another mounted infantry to gain mobility

[kevincompton]

Well in my situation I have 2 options for Calvary once you reach what would be the rennaissance (18th century - 19th century, not the other one).

Reiter(this is available earlier, precurser to the rennaissance)anim heavy armour, though not as heavy as a knight with pistol shot then sword attack: fast strong attack

Conquistador(also a precurser): basically a reiter for spain, however movement over terrain is same as roads.

Mounted Samurai: Japanese calvary

Ansar Warrior: the arab early calvary

Hussar (anim has a light calvary with a sword): This unit is faster movement, cheaper cost, but weaker attack.

Dragoon(original calvary anim from civ3, with a rifle): Slower, much more expensive, strongest.

Sipahi: Arab rennaissance calvary


Let me know what you guys think (also there will be a few more calvary for mongols and China, havn't put them in yet)

[dunk]

I love the name of the project: "Project Awesome".

[Richard Cribb]

Originally Posted by kevincompton

Well in my situation I have 2 options for Calvary once you reach what would be the rennaissance (18th century - 19th century, not the other one).

Reiter(this is available earlier, precurser to the rennaissance)anim heavy armour, though not as heavy as a knight with pistol shot then sword attack: fast strong attack

Conquistador(also a precurser): basically a reiter for spain, however movement over terrain is same as roads.

Mounted Samurai: Japanese calvary

Ansar Warrior: the arab early calvary

Hussar (anim has a light calvary with a sword): This unit is faster movement, cheaper cost, but weaker attack.

Dragoon(original calvary anim from civ3, with a rifle): Slower, much more expensive, strongest.

Sipahi: Arab rennaissance calvary


Let me know what you guys think (also there will be a few more calvary for mongols and China, havn't put them in yet)

Are you going to include Poland as one of the civs? In that case I am not so sure that they should be weaker in attack, as they were probably the cavalry in early modern times until the development of advanced infantery techniques. I would rather suggest that they would be given one extra attacking point compared to a normal knight/reiter unit or perhaps one extra movement point like the Chinese Rider in normal Civ3. However I want to emphasize that this is no special field of mine and I might be influenced by biased literature and the fact that I am married to a Polish woman, so if anybody feels that I am o a wrong track, by all means set me straight again!
In any case this is a very good link about different Polish historical topics: http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/Poli...eArtillery.htm Of special interest are the sections about the hussars and those describing famous battles.

[Khaghan]

"Well, if you're talking of the Swiss, the attack unit was the pikemen! They utilised tactics not dissimilar to the old Greek phalanx, marching forward and simply pushing their way through the enemy lines. This tended to work well early on, when enemy gunpowder weapons were poor, but in later times the Swiss got themselves shot to pieces."

The swiss pikeman is fundamentally different from the Macedonian phalanx. They had Halberd units in their army and they were much more flexible with more formations than the classical phalanx such as line, wedge, and square which they could adopt in prompt, systematic, orderly fashion. The Swiss Gewalthaufen also had an caree-like defensive formation that was not known in ancient Greece.


The swiss infantry is introduced during the mid 15th centaury, at that time the principal Swiss weapon was halberd and the battle tactic consist in the massed shock of halberdiers column charging downhill. In addition to the basic halberdiers, Swiss formations included a few crossbowmen (later also handgunners) as skirmishers.

They continued to develop this They had learned that this same principle would work on level ground if the infantry could maintain their massed formation without gaps and without faltering in the face of a cavalry charge. They eventually figured out that pike was more efficient in doing such and changed from halberd to pike, but neverthless halberds still exist for one on one combat. The halberdiers have been located in the interior files of the column and their principal task was to cut down individual horsemen in a melee, when the pikemen had stopped or repulsed a cavalry charge. Thus if the Swiss pike formation break, the result isn't fatal as were the macedonian phalanx.

[Sargon of Agade]

To the best of my knowledge, I think the quinticential unit in Civ before Pikemen were pretty much made obsolete(They were still in use during the 1600 if my memory serves me) would have to be a unit that would be a mix of a pikemen and Arquebusiers, back then they were both used in a sorta box or square formation, and would work together, not separately... So by 1490, I could see a Pikemen that eventually upgrades to a mixed arqu and pike unit(have to people in the animation?). But I am not sure the two were mixed at that time as much as they were later on.

I have a question Kevin, are you going to give different countries different infantry? For example I think Prussia should have Riflemen with either better attack(because I believe they took advantage of gun technology before others) or another move(they were famed for their discipline during battle and could march at great speeds...