Solution discussion.

Rik Meleet

Top predator
Retired Moderator
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I am given the opportunity to come up with a fair proposal for a solution.

I would like the CFC-members to join me in this. Ask yourself: What punishment would be fair ??

Do not let emotions take over and do not forget all sides of the situation. Sides like: extent of the damage, fair continuation of the game, opinion of the other teams in the game, enjoyment of the ISDG, our position in the semi-finals, future on our shared continent, etc.

So: "What punishment / solution is fair ?"
 
A sollution/punishment derived from a clear law passed by all teams involved in ISDG games. Justice shouldn't be a lottery!
The fact that this rulling spawns so much debate shows to me the inperfections in the current laws concerning espionage.

And i don't want to hear: "there isn't enough time for that". IMO the punishment can be set later on and in the meantime the game can continue with the decission still having to be made.Such thing's shouldn't be taken lightly or be rushed.
 
Why did we start a new thread?

I already started one?
 
The law clearly says ejection. JokerDF is to be ejected from wherever possible to.

How can we suggest a punishment for the C3B team if we don't know how they have benefitted from JokerDF acts?

Solution to this might lie in the metaphysical field of assumptions which is not acceptable. Also, the C3B team has been repeatedly saying they have not shared any info with JokerDF. It is not that we can trust them or cannot trust them, we HAVE to trust them.

On the other hand JokerDF has been the turnplayer for C3B for almost the whole term.

Personally I would settle for some gpt payment for 20 turns, lets say 20 gold per turn. Or a lump sum of 400 gold. It can certainly be increased to 25 or 30 gpt but not more since it will ruin the game.

Official apology from Pggar and Master of Civ as well.

On the other hand, this means we will be stuck at peace with them for 20 turns.

Well, it might be that some penalty cannot be avoided but it should benefit US, not be neutral to US like isolation.

We can make a jesture so that C3B will suggest whatever they think might benefit us and accept anything that they would give us. That would be a beautiful jesture indeed.

If they decide nothing, so be it. If they give us something, it would be OK as well. We can make this public in the UN forum. This would probably skyrocket our reputation at the UN. However, we are risking getting nothing in return. Well, I'm willing to take these risks since I'm sure about goodwill of Pggar in this case.

Edited again: Just to summarize:

1). JokerDF has to be ejected from ISDG, UN, C3B, CFC and all other fora.

2). We belive in good will and fairness of the C3B team. Since it is evident, that CFC team has to be compensated somehow for the harm done by JokerDF to the CFC team, we would like to get some form of financial, technological or other compensation from C3B. The type and amount of compensation is to be determined by the C3B team and will be accepted in any case by the CFC team be it symbolical (like 1 gold payment, for example) or substantial to really compensate for the damage. The type and amount of the compensation is to be posted at the UN by the C3B team so that it is public.
 
I can see akots' idea holding value and symbolising the way damage is settled in (parts of) the real world; sueing. :goodjob:
It is also way easier to check / uphold than an "isolation" period. And it can be settled quickly and without hassle, so that the game can continue. And it does "undo" some of the damage.
 
I think akots idea is very good indeed. :)

Say that we feel we should be compensated for our loss by C3B, and ask C3B what they think might be a fair compensation.
 
I'd like to draw your attention to CDZ's member Darkness posting in the UN. I had no idea 30 to 40 turns of inactivity was the crime for a code red offense.

Darkness";p="1851 said:
Ok, before I expres my opinion in this matter I'd like to stress the following:
- By no means is this the opinion of the entire CDZ team, this is my PERSONAL view alone.
- Nothing in this post is meant to be taken as critisism or accusations. This is just my opinion on this issue, nothing else.

Now, to the point:
Since I have not seen any of the evidence provided by CFC or the defense provided by I can only give my opinion on the jugdement and punishment handed out by the administrators.


Judgement

JokerDF:
The admins clearly found evidence that JokerDF created a DL at CFC to enter the private forum of the CFC ISDG community. This is an act of espionage and the only possible conclusion (apart from a CFC conspiracy all up the way to the site administrator) is that JokerDF cheated and was in violation of two ISDG rules (0.2.2 - Allowed Memberships and 0.4.2 - Intentional Espionage). This seems pretty straightforward to me. I understand that C3B has a hard time believing that JokerDF did this, as he was apparently a longstanding and respected member of the community of C3B, but that does not change the fact that the evidence has led the admins to this conclusion.

C3B:
The C3B community states it had no knowledge of JokerDF cheating, some confusion to this claim is created by several C3B posts on the UN.
For example:

TheCat";p="1820 said:
No player is successfully elected for important positions if he got nothing to add.

This indicates that JokerDF became president of C3B because he had valuable insights to offer C3B. I am not saying that these insights are the information he took from the CFC forum, but this can not be ruled out immediately. What strikes me as odd in this line of though is that there is no reference to any validation effort C3B made to ascertain JokerDF did acquire his information in a public part of the CFC forum. I find it hard to believe that the C3B team would elect someone as president who has gotten 'sensitive' information from a dubious source without investigating that source.
The fact that JokerDF was president is also significant, because this indicates that he at least had 'sensitive' CFC information in the back of his head while governing CFC.
Lastly, I find it strange that C3B do not appeal to the administrator decision if 100% of their community thinks the verdict is wrong. If you think you are wronged by a deciding judge, you appeal to get the verdict overturned. To say:

Pggar said:
Anyway, what I can assure you is:
- 100% of our citizens is sure that the team did not take part on the espionage, if it indeed happen;
- from the beggining, we stated that we would accept any rulling that came from the admins;
- we don't think that the game should be delayed anymore, and the last actions from CFC is making most of us anxious since it looks like they want to delay the game even more.

That just is not logical. If you are wronged you try to get it straighted out, except if you think you can't do so and may get more punishment.
To say you won't appeal, because you want to get the game going again is simply is not a strong argument, and neither is it a strong argument to refuse to appeal because you said you wouldn't even though you believe the ruling to be wrong.
That makes me think that there's more to this than meets the eye.

Finally, I am of the very simple opinion that if one member of a team cheats (and especially if that member is team president or another high ranking official), the whole team is accountable for that team members' actions. That's why it's called a team! For example, if a member of a sprinting relay team at the Olympics is caught at using performance enhancing products, isn't that whole team punished for his actions?



The verdict

JokerDF:
He's been found guilty, so he's expelled. Simple as that!

C3B:
From the official game rules:

.2.2 - Allowed Memberships

Description: Each forum will be allowed to determine the requirements for membership of its team as it sees fit. However, a person may only be a member of one team at any given time. A double membership is automatically considered out-of-game espionage.

Purpose: To disallow the use of out-of-game espionage and prevent anything that resembles out-of-game espionage.

Verdict: Double membership is strictly prohibited and doing so is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Red (Ejection – Personal or Team)

and
0.4.2 - Intentional Espionage

Description: Any out-of-game espionage in any form is strictly prohibited.

Definition: Trying to hack the secure team forum(s), continuously logging team chat channels, inserting moles in an opponent's team, hacking screenshots or savegame upload location, or any other action considered espionage as determined by the game staff

Verdict: doing any of the above as determined by the game staff is a violation of this rule.

Punishment Level: Red (Ejection)

and again from the game rules:

A team that commits a Red Offence will forfeit an enormous amount of turns, in upwards of 30 or 40 turns, they may even be ejected from the current game. A repeat offense is easily enough for they to be expelled from the entire IDG or ever playing on CDG again.

Team Punishments include:

Skipping Turns (no actions taken, just hitting enter)

Anarchy*

Forfeiture of unfairly acquired assets (cities, units, etc.)

Ejection from the current game

Suspension From the rest of the IDG (to include the championship game)

Expulsion from ever playing on or with CDG again

So, a team member of C3B has committed two Red level offenses and he gets expelled and the team gets a 3-turn anarchy?
This is a dangerous precedent! This sets the punishment for extremely serious cheating at 3 turns of anarchy, whereas the rules specefy a much harder punishment. I can not see this as an appropriate verdict, and I suspect, neither can a lot (if not most) members of the wronged team (CFC). IMHO, a CFC appeal is the very logical next step.
But C3B claims (as is their good right) to be innocent as wel, so a C3B appeal would also seem quite logical.


The ammendment

JokerDF:
Punishment stays the same.

C3B:
No punishment??? :dknow: Why not? A C3B member spied on CFC, why shouldn't there be punishment?
Now C3B and CFC have to exchange screenshot? Why? CFC is the 'alledgedly' wronged party in this case. so why should they give information to C3B? And why would CFC want to have C3B inside information as compensation for this crime? I imagine they'll want to win the game in an honest and in-game way, so this ammendment is (and I don't mean to offend the admins with this) ridiculous!!!!


The captains poll

CDZ and CGN are not impartial in this matter and therefor their captains should not be on the ruling council in this issue. Simple as that!



My own conclusion

The judgement:
JokerDF is found guilty. He was a highranking C3B official, which makes this very delicate indeed. C3B is found not directly guilty. However, C3B behaviour is puzzling and not logical in this issue

The verdict:
JokerDF is expelled, following the game rules
C3B gets a 3-turn anarchy punishment, which means that IMHO they get of very easily and a dangerous precedent is set by the game admins.

The Ammendment:
No punishment for C3B, but an exchange of screenshots to balance the issue between C3B and CFC is not logical! The matter is not about balancing C3B and CFC, it's about deterring from further espionage and punishing those who our found guilty of cheating.

The captains' poll:
The captains are not objective in this issue, so they can not make an impartial ruling in this case.



Once more, I want to stress that this is my personal opinion, not the opinion of the entire CDZ team!

Edited for spelling...
 
Darkness is a very respectable member of the CDZ team and very skilled single-player game payer. I'm sure UN community will listen to his opinion.

As far as Lucky's finding, if you look at UKguy in google, this is the first reference that he picked up. There are over a few hundred UKguy user names all over the web probably. It is not as widely spread as Joker but not that rare and unique as well. IMO, this argument does not lead UN to some positive solution of the crisis unless there would be a testimony of the JokerDF himself on the matters. If UKguy is a third-party hacker, why he would have picked up a JokerDF's IP? By chance these things do not happen. Nobody seriously believes in these types of coincidence.
 
I took the liberty of writing our demands and thoughts about the penalty C3B should endure. If I understand 40J correctly he wants our proposal tonight.

Is this an ok proposal ?

Official CFC point of view on the punishment.

We are extremely unhappy with the situation that was forced upon us. We have not asked for a spy, nor have we invited a spy onto our forum. CFC is a big community, with over 50.000 members. Therefore our security system for the ISDG forum is nearly impossible to get watertight. If someone with the intention of spying on our forum has enough will-power (s)he can succeed. JokerDF has proven that.

We thought the spirit of the ISDG game was enough to have honesty prevent such attacks. It wasn't and that saddens us. It has removed a lot of our fun in this game.

Nevertheless the most important thing we want is to continue the game. The second most important thing we want is to continue this game with the damage that was done to us undone. In reality the first objective is easily feasible, the second objective nearly impossible. To undo the damage it has to be known what the damage was, which is in our point of view impossible to determine.

So we have to settle for a compromise; for the fairness of the game. And this fairness includes a penalty for JokerDF's team; C3B. Darkness has pointed out that disqualification of C3B as a team is fair, since members of that team have committed at least 2 Red Offenses. This solution would mean the enforcing of the rules. Knowing very well that this will not bring back the ISDG-spirit, nor the enjoyment we will not be asking for this.

Elucidus, Rik Meleet and Pggar (admins or moderators of CDG, CFC and C3B) have agreed that CFC can propose a penalty.
This proposal was discussed on the CFC-forum.

CFC came up with a penalty that mimics a real life situation. Sueing for damages. The victim getting paid for damages by the perpatraitor.

CFC sues C3B for 25 gpt (for 20 turns). This way C3B gets penalised, but not so severely their chances in the game are gone. CFC gets the means to change their shortterm goals and longterm strategy so that the knowledge of C3B gained by JokerDF is reduced in value. And most importantly; the game can continue (reasonably fairly).
 
Looks OK, but still it would be better if C3B would come up with this proposal and we won't suggest anything on our own relying on their good will and trying to preserve the spirit of the game.

Also, it does not have to come in the form of gold but can come in the form of techs or other things.
 
Not to be mean or anything rik, but could you keep the proposals of what we wanna ask for at lest 24 hours. I would have liked a chance to respond to this proposal.

I think that C3B's turn was played by a cheeter. Therefore C3B cheeted. So ejection is nessasary.
 
Rik Meleet said:
I had to post this at the CDG before a certain time, else the admins would decide without our proposal. Their ruling is scheduled in less than 1 hour from now. I gave you all the time I could, sorry if it wasn't enough, but it was out of my hands.

Next time please ask for an extenson, but whatever, it will do.

I still don't think that 3 turns is enough, it should be 10 or 20.
But with this deal, then it garentties peace with fanatica for C3B. Since we cannot decalre war while getting the money at the same time, it hurts us a lot.
 
Raze one or two of their cities, that will tell the Brazillians how we consider corruption, and would be a harsh and draconian statutory penalty for a gross trespassing of our integrity, our chances to play a fair game and so on. This will also promote a strictly fair game, as the penalty, city extermination, is sufficiently deterring to similar acts.
 
2 responses to the proposal:

Miccofl of CGN
miccofl said:
I'm impressed :goodjob:

And Pggar of C3B
Pggar said:
miccofl said:
I'm impressed :goodjob:
In what way?
I'm impressed too, but not in a good way.

The verdict was given and it says Joker is guilty.
I won't discuss this because all we had to say was written in the defense document and it doesn't matter my opnion, since that won't change the admins rulling. That's why we always said we won't go against the admins rulling.

Anarres said:
I must admit that I am a little confused by this all. C3B have not contested the admin ruling that Joker cheated, yet they don't think they should as a team be punished. The only evidence we have seen appears to be very compelling, especially the posting of stuff from within the CFC private forum.
If I ever said something remotely close to that, forgive me. I never meant it to come out that way. C3B contested the accusation in its defense. And all the things we got after the rulling were passed to 40J and Luc as well. If you mean that we should start annoying the admins over and over with the same arguments, even after they have said they took all of it into consideration, than you're right in being confused. We won't be doing this, because that's just plain disrespectfull to them.

Anarres said:
"Balancing" the game is not even what this should be about - punative punishemnt is designed to discourage others from the same action.
I couldn't agree more, but this is my opinion only.
C3B as a team is not guilty of spying, but the action of one of its members might be punished by the admins if they feel that's the way things should be done.
Moreover, even though people love to say that a light punishment would encourage acts like this to happen in the future, I must say I'm puzzled by that kind of statement because:
1. You have to know all the facts to say something like that.
2. In this case, nobody knows what a light punishment is, or so it seems.
3. This wouldn't have happened in any other forum other than CFC, and from what I've learned from Thunderfall and Rik Mellet, their forum is working properly now, and it's unlikely that this situation could be repeated at CFC as well.


That being said, the conclusion I come to is: if the admins believe that punish C3B as a team is the right way to go, them they should rule and people should stop bugging them.
But let's be straigh, if this should be a punishment of the kind you mentioned, them I don't think CFC will be happy. If we are to give them 500g, then we should give it to CGN and CDZ as well. Otherwise, this is just a way to improve CFC's position, as it seems they feel very weakened by this whole situation.

I'm not going to respond. But it is clear that C3B giving gold to CGN znd CDZ is just silly; CFC was harmed, not CGN nor CDZ.
I am just very happy 1 of the other teams likes the proposal. The more teams back us, the better chance we have in reaching the semis and the better chances we have in diplomacy in the semis.
 
Why not use a geographical IP tracker and cross-investigate players using servers in Brazil, Portugal, Macao, Angola, Mocambique, Sao Tome il Principe, East Timor amd Goa?
 
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