WW2-Global

[Civinator]

Hello Rocoteh,

I was very surprised, that you gave the multiple wonder system a chance, so a lot of playtesting is necessairy to see if it works. It seems, you had a very busy day yesterday . I will take that chance and do the testing on your new scenario with a special setup, removing the normal AI-Razing-Protection-wonders and see what happens with the multiple wonder system as the only protection against razing.

While doing this setup I had a look in the biq. The Ottawa Wonder-bombing miracle is cleared. The Ottawa wonder is set as an normal improvement, not as a wonder.

Good luck with the new version of this scenario !

[Rocoteh]

Originally Posted by Civinator

Hello Rocoteh,

I was very surprised, that you gave the multiple wonder system a chance, so a lot of playtesting is necessairy to see if it works. It seems, you had a very busy day yesterday . I will take that chance and do the testing on your new scenario with a special setup, removing the normal AI-Razing-Protection-wonders and see what happens with the multiple wonder system as the only protection against razing.

While doing this setup I had a look in the biq. The Ottawa Wonder-bombing miracle is cleared. The Ottawa wonder is set as an normal improvement, not as a wonder.

Good luck with the new version of this scenario !

Civinator,

Thank you.
The new multiple wonder system have been used for: Britain,China,
Germany, Japan and Soviet.
I really appreciate if players of version 2.0 report AI-razing of any city
that belongs to these Civs.
Thank you for the info on the Ottawa wonder.
Looking forward to reports from you. Should the new system work
its a very important achievment by you.

Note edit of this post. By a mistake "Looking forward etc" was incorporated
into the quote in the first version.


Rocoteh

[Hyperborean]

Germany - v 1.9 - Sid - Week 26, 1942

Cities conquered since week 18: Cleveland, Toronto, Timmins, Charleston, Detroit, Mexico City, Georgetown, Luanda, Cabanga and Kong.
The war in North America has turned into a war of attrition more than anything else. I make progress, but at a high price. I had to bomb both Toronto and Detroit to size 1 before I could take the cities, and I'm about to do the same thing with the American capital of Chicago. In contrast I took New York pretty much intact, and the city has already produced its first panzer. I cannot waste units as I did at Boston. Before that battle I had over 150 infantry divisions and 100 panzers, but now I'm down to 80 infantry and 60 panzers. The good news is that I can replace my losses faster than the Allies, the bad news is that I have to ship them across the Atlantic. That takes time. But at least I think I have a numerical superiority in America now since I have brought in lots of Chinese and Russian infantry to fight the resistance in the cities I conquer, and to hold my gains against any Allied counter-attacks. I have finally begun researching Land 1942, and when I can produce Panthers I'm going to make some real progress.
Reinforcements in Central America have arrived, and I have just conquered Georgetown. Within a couple of weeks I should be able to advance towards the U.S. from the south. After I had taken Mexico City the Allied counter-attacked. The British sent a couple of Matildas, and the Americans sent 8 tanks and 2 marines. I only had 2 panzers and 2 German 88 in Mexico City, but I had plenty of artillery, and I used it to pound the enemy. This proved to be enough for them to turn and escape back across the border.
Mexico has made peace both with me and the Allies. But they are still at war with Chile, and Chile sent a few ships to Mexico, and one of them ran into one of my u-boats, so now I'm at war with Chile. Unfortunately Chile is without my reach, and they are probably going to sue for peace before I have a chance to send any force there.
In Africa Japan has razed Uganda, Gimbi, Mega, Addis Abeba, Caluula, Obbia, Mogadishu and Kismayu. Perhaps it would be easier to tell what cities they have NOT razed: and that would be the city of Moyale. I have absolutely no idea why they haven't razed this city (which belonged to the British). There is little more than smoking ruins in East Africa now. The only cities left (besides Moyale) are Asmara and Djibouti, and they belonged to France.
I tried to save Nigeria from being destroyed, but the Italians got in my way. But I have decided to try and save South Africa by cutting the Japanese off. For this reason I started a war with Portugal... wait, I mean: they started a war of aggression against my peace-loving troops, and I was forced to defend myself by liberating Luanda and Cabanga.
I formed the Deutsche Afrika Korps, consisting of 8 elite infantry divisions and one elite panzer division, and they liberated Luanda and Cabanga with a minimum effort. My primary aim is not to conquer South Africa, but to prevent Japan from razing more cities. If I'm successful in reaching the east coast I will bring in additional troops to take the last British cities on the continent at my leisure.

I hope you will continue this interesting playtest even after the
release of version 2.0.

Yes, I will. I have to play this to the end. Even though the war is essentially won I still have to fight all the logistical problems of conducting a war across the seas. And that is still interesting, the enemy would be less of a challenge if I could bring my newly produced units there faster. I am very grateful for the paratrooper plane. Without it my problems would be even bigger. I have 20 planes now, and that means I can transport 20 infantry divisions to America in one week, where the reinforcements are much needed.
The disadvantage of playing it to the bitter end is that I have to move several hundred units each turn, and that is very time-consuming. I think the turns takes twice as long to play now as they did initially when the war was being fought on my door-step, so to speak.

[Rocoteh]

Hyperborean,

Thank you for the report.

"The war in North America has turned into a war of attrition more than anything else. I make progress, but at a high price. I had to bomb both Toronto and Detroit to size 1 before I could take the cities, and I'm about to do the same thing with the American capital of Chicago. In contrast I took New York pretty much intact, and the city has already produced its first panzer. I cannot waste units as I did at Boston. Before that battle I had over 150 infantry divisions and 100 panzers, but now I'm down to 80 infantry and 60 panzers." Hyperborean

It seems like US-AI have much more forces at hand than one could think.

"I have finally begun researching Land 1942, and when I can produce Panthers I'm going to make some real progress." Hyperborean

Yes that should make a difference.

"Mexico has made peace both with me and the Allies. But they are still at war with Chile, and Chile sent a few ships to Mexico, and one of them ran into one of my u-boats, so now I'm at war with Chile. Unfortunately Chile is without my reach, and they are probably going to sue for peace before I have a chance to send any force there."
Hyperborean

Probably you do not need to bother about them.

"In Africa Japan has razed Uganda, Gimbi, Mega, Addis Abeba, Caluula, Obbia, Mogadishu and Kismayu. Perhaps it would be easier to tell what cities they have NOT razed: and that would be the city of Moyale. I have absolutely no idea why they haven't razed this city (which belonged to the British). There is little more than smoking ruins in East Africa now. The only cities left (besides Moyale) are Asmara and Djibouti, and they belonged to France." Hyperborean

I hope that the new system, found out by Civinator shall solve this problem.

"The disadvantage of playing it to the bitter end is that I have to move several hundred units each turn, and that is very time-consuming. I think the turns takes twice as long to play now as they did initially when the war was being fought on my door-step, so to speak" Hyperborean

What do you say about waiting time between turns? Has it also increased
since the early turns?

Thank you and welcome back with more reports.

Rocoteh

[ComradeDavo]

I think the descion to disable conscription was a very good one, playing as the Japanese rather than my usual fast paced conquering of Chinese cities (using conscript units to garrsion those captured) I am actually having to wait intill I have built enough troops Makes me think about keeping units in reserve, far more realistic!

Played about 7 turns so far, no cities razed.

I am trying the VP idea I posted about earlier, will let you know what effects this has on the AI. I also put the points for conquest at 5 and deafeating opposing unit at 2 (with location as 15 and all others as 0, max as 1,000,000. The locations I added were in places like Britain, North Africa and cities like Berlin and Tokyo). Certainally the US seems rather keen to get it's pacific navy into the action, sending the entirety of it straight towards Japan!

[Adler17]

I think the conscription take out is a good idea. However the new model of deleting the trade flags of harbours is not that good. Also I think you should add defense fortress units in and around Ruhr, Stuttgart, Berlin and Königsberg simulating the heavy fightings to get these cities. I´ll post a few thoughts later.

Adler

[Rocoteh]

Originally Posted by ComradeDavo

I think the descion to disable conscription was a very good one, playing as the Japanese rather than my usual fast paced conquering of Chinese cities (using conscript units to garrsion those captured) I am actually having to wait intill I have built enough troops Makes me think about keeping units in reserve, far more realistic!

Played about 7 turns so far, no cities razed.

I am trying the VP idea I posted about earlier, will let you know what effects this has on the AI. I also put the points for conquest at 5 and deafeating opposing unit at 2 (with location as 15 and all others as 0, max as 1,000,000. The locations I added were in places like Britain, North Africa and cities like Berlin and Tokyo). Certainally the US seems rather keen to get it's pacific navy into the action, sending the entirety of it straight towards Japan!

ComradeDavo,

I glad to hear that. Without draft play against AI should be harder.
Very positive that no cities have been razed so far.

It will be interesting to hear how the VP idea turns out.
Welcome back with more reports.

Rocoteh

[Rocoteh]

Originally Posted by Adler17

I think the conscription take out is a good idea. However the new model of deleting the trade flags of harbours is not that good. Also I think you should add defense fortress units in and around Ruhr, Stuttgart, Berlin and Königsberg simulating the heavy fightings to get these cities. I´ll post a few thoughts later.

Adler

Adler,

The problem is that if I not delete the trade flags it will
result in waiting time between turns 45-60 minutes on the huge map.
I think not many players would accept that.

With regard to the German cities notes have been taken.
Welcome back.

Rocoteh

[ComradeDavo]

The load times are quicker in 2.0 I have observed, I think removing the trade flags is a good idea, especially for when you release the bigger map as 45-60 minutes would be far to long.

[Rocoteh]

Originally Posted by ComradeDavo

The load times are quicker in 2.0 I have observed, I think removing the trade flags is a good idea, especially for when you release the bigger map as 45-60 minutes would be far to long.

ComradeDavo,

Yes, on my own computer load time have been reduced with 90%.
Since Civ 3 does not have any system for strategic warfare I do
not think version 2.0 will be less realistic than earlier versions.

Rocoteh

[IarnGreiper]

Report for July 1940:
Kampfgruppe A hit heavy British resistance at Freetown. They even forced us to retreat to Canarky to heal our troops. However we drove their naval force of several battleships and heavy cruisers off with our Luftwaffe.
Meanwhile the Reichsmarine was seiging Malta. We are confident to make a landing there with 6 SS divisions in early August.
Kampfgruppe B hit heavy resistance and bad terrain south of Waw. However we are slowly crawling south. I hope the SS troops waiting for the assault of Malta will give our troops the edge in jungle fighting soon. We sent our Panzers towards Moyale to keep up the morale. After a long siege Madurai finally fell to our artillery.
Kampfgruppe D has taken control of Java. We are still lacking transport capacity there badly.

The Japanese are holding well in the Philipine sea. However they fail to bring in troops. Their best marines are still stumbling mindlessly through the Indian jungles.

The British show some unknown naval activity west of France. We ordered some Uboots there for surveillance.

[Rocoteh]

IarnGreiper,

Thank you for the report.

"However we drove their naval force of several battleships and heavy cruisers off with our Luftwaffe.
Meanwhile the Reichsmarine was seiging Malta. We are confident to make a landing there with 6 SS divisions in early August." IarnGreiper

Do you have any info on the current strenght of the British naval forces?

"I hope the SS troops waiting for the assault of Malta will give our troops the edge in jungle fighting soon." IarnGreiper

If you manage to conquer Malta it will be interesting to see if AI has withdrawn
its air units or if you will be able to catch them on the ground.

Thank you and welcome back with more reports.

Rocoteh

[eaglefox]

i think removing trade flags is more realistic as areas that historically couldn't support heavy industries like the remote colonies of africa can now no longer make heavy equipment like tanks and aircrafts. these weapons were only produced in the industrial centers of a nation and not all the cities it controlled. moreover, the load time is definitely less and it seems the ai times are also lower. plus because of the above mentioned side-effect, the game looks a lot more interesting unlike before when any city could produce anything as long as it was connected.

[IarnGreiper]

Hello Rocoteh, a quick preview on what happened in the following 3 turns (no pseudo historical style for clarity). Captured Malta, no plane was destroyed but 2 battleships and a single destroyer.
I destroyed 3 heavy cruisers and a battleship east of Africa with my Luftwaffe, loosing 3 planes.
The British made an amphibious assault on La Curuna, I managed to drove them back. Luckily I had encircled the Italy AI to prevent them from mindlessly running thorugh my territory. I used these troops to stop the Brits drom endangering other cities than la Curuna. Managed to land paratroopers and paratrooper planes in La Curuna. Sunk 6 destroyer flotillas and 4 transports there with U boots and airforce (loosing 5 Uboots).
Now in week 31, GB has the following Naval units left:
6 transports
7 destroyers 1939
5 battleships (at least 2 of them are operating somewhere east of Dakar atm. 2 are oparting near Timor)
3 heavy cruisers
1 battlecruiser
1 destroyer flotilla 1939
2 light cruisers of different types

My Reichsmarine has about the same surface fleet plus 3x Uboote.
The Japanese display the largest surface fleet with about 2.5 times the size of the British.
The US surface fleet is just a tiny bit smaller (lacking big gun battleships like the Yamamato) than the Japanese but they have more submarines than me and more transports than all other nations combined.

PS: It is possible to take over cities by propaganda, I was unsuccessfull so far (wanted to buy some size 1 cities for not wanting to destroy them)

[Rocoteh]

Originally Posted by eaglefox

i think removing trade flags is more realistic as areas that historically couldn't support heavy industries like the remote colonies of africa can now no longer make heavy equipment like tanks and aircrafts. these weapons were only produced in the industrial centers of a nation and not all the cities it controlled. moreover, the load time is definitely less and it seems the ai times are also lower. plus because of the above mentioned side-effect, the game looks a lot more interesting unlike before when any city could produce anything as long as it was connected.

eaglefox,

I agree.
The net effect should be increased realism.
The British and French colonies in Africa had no industrial power
1939-1945 and could not produce tanks, aircraft or ships.

Rocoteh

[IarnGreiper]

However both Canada ans Australia should be able to produce tannks and planes.

[Rocoteh]

IarnGreiper,

Thank you for the report.
It seems like the British Navy have been heavily reduced.

Its impossible to stop AI from spending its naval forces early in the scenario.
I hope the gigantic ocean areas in the huge version will make the naval aspect
more interesting.

"PS: It is possible to take over cities by propaganda, I was unsuccessfull so far (wanted to buy some size 1 cities for not wanting to destroy them)" IarnGreiper

It should be. I hope players of the scenario only will use that option to
prevent cities from being destroyed.

Rocoteh

[Rocoteh]

Originally Posted by IarnGreiper

However both Canada ans Australia should be able to produce tannks and planes.

IarnGreiper,

Yes they should.
I have placed resources so that should work.

Rocoteh

[IarnGreiper]

Originally Posted by Rocoteh

IarnGreiper,

Thank you for the report.
It seems like the British Navy have been heavily reduced.

Its impossible to stop AI from spending its naval forces early in the scenario.

The British AI did not spend much of its navy. Most ships were destroyed by German assaults on their ports (and I guess the Japanese assault on Hong Kong). More ships were destroyed by the assault on gibraltar or the Canaries than ever sunk in blue water.

Update turn 32: A British naval assault on German controlled Indonesia failed.

[Rocoteh]

Originally Posted by IarnGreiper

The British AI did not spend much of its navy. Most ships were destroyed by German assaults on their ports (and I guess the Japanese assault on Hong Kong). More ships were destroyed by the assault on gibraltar or the Canaries than ever sunk in blue water.

Update turn 32: A British naval assault on German controlled Indonesia failed.

IarnGreiper,

OK I see. Thank you for the information.
I know that AI spending its naval forces early have been a problem
in other playtests.

Rocoteh