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Old Aug 17, 2005, 05:21 AM   #3681
eaglefox
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Bob1475:
We have a new houserule for WWII-Global which is to not raze any cities at any time. Just wanted to let you know.
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Old Aug 17, 2005, 08:22 AM   #3682
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Since 2.0 came out, I canned my 1.9 game. I don't think I'm the only one that did this

First combat report, Germany 2.0 SID, still very early in the game, around week 46 1939.

It's the first time I achieved a really efficient blitz on the first turn: conquered Poland, Norway, Belgium and Amsterdam. Took a few turns on the defensive in order to wipe out a somewhat weak French counter-attack. Took Paris but I had to use the whole Luftwaffe to achieve that.

Overall impressions:

1) a lot of the initial Germany tanks are now conscript and regular. I agree with that design since it forces the German player to be a little more cautious with its tank offensive. I actually lost a lot more tank during my offensives because of this.

2) all the changes introduced in 2.0 in regards to cost and effectiveness of units are great. Good work there. I'm curious to see the long term impact of not being able to conscript infantry. It should make a really big difference against Russia during Barbarossa. I have a feeling I will have to build infantry, something I never did in any prior version.

3) The new higher cost for tank and 88 are better. That will really help to tone down the Germany OOB. Those units are really powerfull.

4) I like the French OOB. They now have more veteran infantry and it makes the assault against French city harder.

5) Where's the RAF? When there was an airfield in France, Germany had to deal with a lot of RAF fighters and bombers. Now, I haven't seem many air units from Britain during the French campaign. Maybe we should introduce an airfield in the south of the British isles and see if the AI will leave some air units on it.

My current house rules are:

1) All navy unit that leaves port cannot return to a port in the same turn. They have to spend at least one turn in the open sea. This gives the AI a change to attack those units. It also forces me to spend an extra turn before I can send a unit back to port in order to heal it.

2) Navy unit cannot end their move in a minefield square. That would nullify the prior rule.

3) Never give in diplomatically when a country ask me to remove one of my unit from their territory. Always answer "that's it, goodbye". That should make them more hostile against Germany.

4) No peace possible with Russia. When hostily starts, only a fight to the bitter end is acceptable

5) No city razing

Ideas/Recommendation:

1) Minefield are really powerfull. I have a feeling you introduce them in order to protect specific cities from coastal bombardment. It basically block enemy access to that square. It makes sense that your units are able to cross those square since they know the minefield layout. The thing is, crossing a minefield should take more time compare to a regular sea square. Is there a way we could increase the cost for crossing those squares? I think of cost of 3 movement point would reflect this better.
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Old Aug 17, 2005, 10:14 AM   #3683
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I'd like to know Rocoteh if you'll ever include a complete civilopedia in any of your future updates. I hate having to open up the civ editor when I want to see what a specific wonder/improvement does.
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Old Aug 17, 2005, 10:28 AM   #3684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthCycle
5) Where's the RAF? When there was an airfield in France, Germany had to deal with a lot of RAF fighters and bombers. Now, I haven't seem many air units from Britain during the French campaign. Maybe we should introduce an airfield in the south of the British isles and see if the AI will leave some air units on it.
I doubt the RAF was able to help France very much when Germany attacked. i think its better that there's no british airfield in france.
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Old Aug 17, 2005, 11:15 AM   #3685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglefox
I doubt the RAF was able to help France very much when Germany attacked. i think its better that there's no british airfield in france.
Actually, in all my games prior to 2.0, I had to deal with a lot of bombing and interception missions from the RAF. Those planes were all stationed in the airfield in France. The bombing mission were not very successfull but they did force me to protect my cities with fighters. I also had to test the area around a bombing target with fighter first to see if any defensive fighter were active. Failure to do so would mean losing a bomber since it would be intercepted by a RAF fighter.

In 2.0, the airfield is gone and so are the RAF fighters covering France.

I am not challenging the decision to remove the airfield in France, but merely pointing that the lack of any RAF air cover in France is making the Luftwaffe extremely powerfull during the France conquest.

Now if the AI would leave its fighters in London and other southern cities, a lot of those fighters could effectively intercept German bombing mission. That would be great. Unfortunately, the AI seems to relocate most (if not all) of its fighters into other areas. That creates a huge gap in air cover of northern France and the bristish isles.

Maybe putting an airfield in the south of the British isles would help solve this situation. Playtest of this is obviously required.
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Old Aug 17, 2005, 11:22 AM   #3686
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Concur with Circumpolar

Just got back from a spot of skiing (winter down here in Oz) so I have just sat down and decided that it was time to bring my German Emperor V1.9 game to a timely close.
It was a decisive victory for Germany but it was marred by the Italians constantly declaring war on me after a ROP disagreement at the bottom of Sicily. The Soviets were wiped out by me.
Unfortunately the Japanese seemed to completely collapse after conquering the Asian continental landmass. They were fought to a standstill on the Indian/Burmese border. They never challenged a single Soviet unit. Their archipelago battles were all eventually lost and the US took the two cities on Kyuushu in the home islands. The US had then island hopped onto the main island when I called it a game. I had actually begun the invasion of the Dutch east indies with 66 Pz III's spread out and attacking the islands all at once. The idea was to then gift South East Asia to the Japs and resume my plans to take the Americas. I then realised that there was no hope of the Japanese actually holding onto my gifts. My second realisation was that although I could hold them myself I no longer had the inclination.

Despite that I learnt some valuable lessons and thought I could make a few suggestions. In deciding to provide a little feedback I discovered that Circumpolar has nicely wrapped up a lot of ideas that I found in my own playtest.

- For some reason which i have not been able to determine, the Soviet AI auto-production of Soviet militia never started.

ditto for my game. At no point did any militia appear and my spies showed than none were ever produced upto the end of my game in mid 1943. In fact Soviet tech advances were very very slow. the first generation Yak didn't show up until 1942! The T-34 appeared just as the game ended which was rather disappointing.

- Give Sydney in Australia more shield boni. In reality it should be a much more important industrial center than Canberra. For the same reason, the autoproduction of ANZAC infantry should be moved there

Although a minor point I concur - Sydney was the largest city in Australia in WWII and almost all major troop convoys departed from there first. Canberra was just a minor municipal backwater back then despite being the capital.

Regarding units:

- In general, more of the early units should be made obsolete by new developments. Otherwise the production menu becomes totally cluttered later in the game. And it is somewhat unrealistic that e. g. Germany should still build Panzer IIIs when for the same cost Panzer IVs or even Panthers are available.


I found that I had 160 odd Pz III's by wars end. Not being able to upgrade them to IV's was a little frustrating. I built the other Panzers to enjoy using them and basically became reckless with my throw-away Pz III's. I am aware that the III was still produced throughout the war but perhaps an upgrade option should be available as many Panzer III units were requipped during the war.

- German Me-410 (F) should be eliminated. This plane is quite useless in stats compared to the other fighters, and in reality it was never produced in significant numbers. Since it does not have a particular unit graphic there is also no loss of "flavor" here.

Agreed. I didn't really want to use a "generic" looking unit and the stats meant that it was not enticing.

- German He-219 does have pretty strong stats, giving a much stronger role than in reality. I suggest toning these stats down or dropping the plane altogether, and instead offer a beefed up, upgraded version of Me-109 or a FW-190 with longer range.

Perhaps instead of the He-219 a Ta-152 (the high altitude interceptor version of the 190) could be introduced. Use the same stats as the 219 but slightly recolour a version of the 190.

On that note I found myself wishing that the Ju 188 wasn't the "generic" bomber image. Perhaps it could be changed to a recoloured Ju 88 image as well?

- German SS Panzer 1944 should be renamed simply "Königstiger", in order to make it easier to differentiate from SS Panzer 1943 in the build menu.

Agreed. I rather stupidly found myself wondering when the King Tiger was going to turn up for me to build. Impressed by the Panzer 43 stats I built quite a few and later on the same with the Panzer 44. I recognised the tank but dismissed it as just a damn good looking unit. It wasn't until I read the civilopedia a few turns later that I realised that I had achieved the ability to build these monsters. Perhaps renaming them with their more well recognised names? Or you could just tell me to read the pedia more completely eh?

- Combat engineer is not necessary, should be dropped.

I never built them so I support eliminating them.

- Brits always build too many Blackburn Skua, too many to reflect their actual usefulness in real life. I suggest to reduce their bombardment strength.

For the first two and a half years that seemed to be the primary bomber for the UK-AI. Even once Halifaxs/Lancasters show up I still seem to get attacked by them! Being so cheap I can't see how you could change that though so it isn't really a big issue.

Auto-production in Britain: Edinburgh should not auto-produce a British Tank brigade, as it becomes obsolete fast, but rather a Worker instead of London, which should auto-produce a Spitfire, to make the Air Battle of Britain more difficult for the Germans.

I agree with this idea. The Commonwealth forces after a while run out of air support. Noting their small size and limited use of wartime resources/manpower producing a Spit every 2 or 3 turns couldn't hurt!
I found myself stockpiling the outdated British tank units as the "Waffen SS British Free Corps" then sending them on suicide missions against impossible targets in russia to ease my sadistic tendancies.

Additionally I have found in my travels through the civilopedia that the Japanese Zero (A6M?) is annotated as a Banshee in the title of the pedia despite the text being correct. I have spotted a few other mistitles in the pedia that escape me at the moment but I will let you know when I remember them.

As strange as it may seem I am holding off on a 2.0 game. I will play 1.9 on Demi next since I am really hanging out for the expanded map version (2.1?). Good things take time so I will improve my skills on 1.9. V2.1 promises plenty of room to manoeuvre for the giant Karkhov and Kursk tank battles I dream of seeing! I suppose the aircraft range stats will be reworked for that map as well Roc?
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Old Aug 17, 2005, 12:28 PM   #3687
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Just a small clarification for the upgrade proposal on the Panzer III.

Panzer (PzKpfw) III does not upgrade to Panzer (PzKpfw) IV. When the Panzer IV became available, it did make the Panzer III obsolete since it offers superior combat performance.

However the chassis on Panzer III was used for other combat vehicule: the assault gun Stug III. It is a vehicule designed for direct fire in support of infantry.

For those curious about the difference between an assault gun vehicule and a tank destroyer: an assault gun vehicule is designed for infantry support and is effective against soft target and fortification. It lacks effective armored penetration. That's where the tank destroyer comes in, it is designed to be effective against tank. Usually, the role is dictated by the gun employed on the vehicule, not the chassis.

However, later in the war when they introduced the 75mm gun in assault gun vehicule, its armored penetration became as effective as tank destroyer. The blurr between assault gun and tank destroyer became very thin.

From a civ III perspective this would translate to:

1) When the Pz IV is researched, make the Pz III obsolete

2) Make the Pz III upgradable into Stug III, if the equivalent of that unit exist in the scenario. If it doesn't, it should then
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Old Aug 17, 2005, 02:05 PM   #3688
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Panzer upgrades

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthCycle
Panzer (PzKpfw) III does not upgrade to Panzer (PzKpfw) IV. When the Panzer IV became available, it did make the Panzer III obsolete since it offers superior combat performance.

However the chassis on Panzer III was used for other combat vehicule: the assault gun Stug III. It is a vehicule designed for direct fire in support of infantry.

From a civ III perspective this would translate to:

1) When the Pz IV is researched, make the Pz III obsolete

2) Make the Pz III upgradable into Stug III, if the equivalent of that unit exist in the scenario. If it doesn't, it should then
I can't help but agree. I built the Stug III extensively in my last game as a formidable support/defensive unit. The Soviets wouldn't come near even the smallest combo of 1 x Stug and 4 draftee inf. Having the Pz III upgradable to this unit would tie in nicely with building the newer punchier Panther and Pz IV's and not being left with a bunch of comparable lightweight panzers.

For the avid unit creators out there... has anyone seen a possible upgrade for the current "generic" mobile artillery and rocket artillery? I am thinking that they could have a facelift to look more like Wespe's or Hummel's. I think this was mentioned earlier but am not sure if there was a response.
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Old Aug 17, 2005, 02:19 PM   #3689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthCycle
1) When the Pz IV is researched, make the Pz III obsolete
Unfortunately this is impossible with the civ3 engine... Believe me, I've tried.
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Old Aug 17, 2005, 02:24 PM   #3690
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Originally Posted by Paasky
Unfortunately this is impossible with the civ3 engine... Believe me, I've tried.
The editor will allow one unit to be upgradable to another though....
A question that need not be answered: If we see units disappear from the build options list in vanilla civ when they become obsolete why not when putting a scenario together with the editor?
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Old Aug 17, 2005, 06:46 PM   #3691
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No, you don't. Just download the biq-file 2.0 in post #1.
Thanks Hyperborean. That should probably be put somewhere in the first two posts, its not exactly clear.
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Old Aug 17, 2005, 07:53 PM   #3692
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On Panzerkraftwagen III and IV:
Upgrading Panzer IIIx to IV would not make sense since they were build on two different platforms. However Panzer III should be upgradeable up to version IIIM (N was not really considerent an iprovement) while the Land 42 technology would make the Panzer III line obsolete, so only upgrades are possible. (In reality Panzer III were still build, but only to fully use established production lines). Upgrading to StuG III would be nice but hard to implement by the civ 3 technology.
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Old Aug 17, 2005, 08:20 PM   #3693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthCycle
J
Panzer (PzKpfw) III does not upgrade to Panzer (PzKpfw) IV. When the Panzer IV became available, it did make the Panzer III obsolete since it offers superior combat performance.
With all respect, you are wrong, Panzer III (originally named Sdkfz (Sonderkraftfahrzeug) 141) and Panzer IV (Sdkfz 161)were two different design concepts that existed along each other for about the first half of the war. The Panzer IV was invented before WW2 broke out and some early versions took part of the first battles of WW2. However the design turned out to be superior to the Panzer III design late (with the Panzer IV F2 version, which made the Panzer III obsolete). In early versions the Panzer IV was superior in defense but not in terms of firepower. Up to Version E the Panzer IV was compareable to the Panzer III in terms of offense. Panzer IVF2 turned out to be the strongest offense seen up to this date. However most production lines of the Panzer III platforms were used until very late in the war, however most of the late platforms were used for StuG III. The Panzer IV design was superior from the F2 design to the invention of Panzer V (Sdkfz 171).
However in this scenario both are part of tech land 1942. Maybe the panzer IV could be moved to an earlier tech, since most players avoid building them when Panthers are available (which is sensible from a historic point of view)
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Old Aug 18, 2005, 01:59 AM   #3694
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Germany - v 1.9 - Sid - Week 50, 1942

The Blitz has struck Brazil!
Not much to say. Just a few Brazilian cities in the south remains. Once Brazil is eliminated I'll concentrate on Argentina. My Panthers have easily defeated all opposition. It has been harder to take the cities in Amazonas. Since the panzer cannot go into the jungle I have been forced to rely on the infantry. But with the help of the Luftwaffe I have taken all cities in Amazonas except Acre. But that city will fall soon.

Japan has razed all cities in South Africa. I have pulled my troops out of the continent. In Asia Japan has razed Kuala Lumpur and Singapore too. They have taken Dutch Harbor, Celebes and all of Sumatra.

All of a sudden I was able to build the Forbidden Palace and a "hidden palace". Is this is a bug? I built the Forbidden Palace in Caracas, and the Hidden Palace in Alma-ata.
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Old Aug 18, 2005, 02:02 AM   #3695
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Quote:
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Thanks Hyperborean. That should probably be put somewhere in the first two posts, its not exactly clear.
Yeah, I know. Hopefully Rocoteh will do something about it when he returns.
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Apollonios [of Tyana] speaks and acts as a reformer and a lover of humanity everywhere... He had no narrow notions of nationality, no local clique to serve; he came to no chosen people, but to all of mankind.
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Old Aug 18, 2005, 02:15 AM   #3696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornblower
The editor will allow one unit to be upgradable to another though....
A question that need not be answered: If we see units disappear from the build options list in vanilla civ when they become obsolete why not when putting a scenario together with the editor?
See there are these ways of doing it, but non will work:

1) Make the Pz3 upgrade straight into the Stug. Won't make it obsolete until you can build Stugs.
2) Make the Pz3 upgrade into some unbuildable unit which then upgrades into the Stug. Won't work because you can always build an unit if you have the resources/tech.
3) Take away the Upgrade button from the Pz3. Won't work because then you can't uprade it (duh?)
4) Make it upgrade into *insert generic unit*. Won't work because then you could upgrade the *insert generic unit*into the Stug.

There is no work-around for this, hopefully one will come in civ4.

And in a normal civ game the units, even if they can't be upgraded, disappear because in the editor they upgrade into another unit but they do not have the upgrade button, therefor making the upgrade impossible.
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Old Aug 18, 2005, 03:07 AM   #3697
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Concerning the Pz III issue: The Pz III was indeed a good medium tank at the beginning but then turned out to be inferior because the tank was not really upgradeable as tank and only served as StuG or as self propelled artillery later. The Pz IV was upgradeable from the short guns on the D version to the long barreled F2 and up versions. It proved to be a tank IMO slightly better than the M 4 Sherman and perhaps also T 34. It is unfair to compare it with the Panther as the Panther was indeed a heavy tank.
So I propose to build this tanks until the N version and then upgradeable to the StuG.
To the He 219 Uhu (Owl): The Uhu was the German equivalent of the Mosquito, designed as fast bomber, reconnaissance plane, torpedo bomber and heavy fighter, including night fighter ability. As latter it was introduced and was one of the few German planes to cope with the Mosquitos. In fact these planes were the first to shoot down this fast bomber. Both were also developed by private enterprises and not military decisions. As so both had the problem of being accepted. But in contrast to the Mosquito, Feldmarschall Milch did not hear on General Kammhuber to introduce the He 219 as night fighter because he was the opinion Germany couldn´t afford another special plane. So only 268 He 219 were built. Despite this low number I think the abilities of this plane speak for a staying in the game. Indeed the Ta 152 C and H variants were not build in much more exemplars. Why not introducing both?
Here is a list of German fighters and upgrade possibilities:

Me 110 Zerstörer --> Me 110 Nachtjäger
Ju 88 --> Ju 188
Me 109 E --> Me 109 F --> Me 109 G --> Me 109 K
FW 190 A --> FW 190 D
He 219


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Old Aug 18, 2005, 05:23 AM   #3698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthCycle
Actually, in all my games prior to 2.0, I had to deal with a lot of bombing and interception missions from the RAF. Those planes were all stationed in the airfield in France. The bombing mission were not very successfull but they did force me to protect my cities with fighters. I also had to test the area around a bombing target with fighter first to see if any defensive fighter were active. Failure to do so would mean losing a bomber since it would be intercepted by a RAF fighter.

In 2.0, the airfield is gone and so are the RAF fighters covering France.

I am not challenging the decision to remove the airfield in France, but merely pointing that the lack of any RAF air cover in France is making the Luftwaffe extremely powerfull during the France conquest.

Now if the AI would leave its fighters in London and other southern cities, a lot of those fighters could effectively intercept German bombing mission. That would be great. Unfortunately, the AI seems to relocate most (if not all) of its fighters into other areas. That creates a huge gap in air cover of northern France and the bristish isles.

Maybe putting an airfield in the south of the British isles would help solve this situation. Playtest of this is obviously required.
i was actually talking about the real war. i don't think britain had enough planes to put in france back in WWII
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Old Aug 18, 2005, 07:47 AM   #3699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adler17
To the He 219 Uhu (Owl): The Uhu was the German equivalent of the Mosquito, designed as fast bomber, reconnaissance plane, torpedo bomber and heavy fighter, including night fighter ability. As latter it was introduced and was one of the few German planes to cope with the Mosquitos. In fact these planes were the first to shoot down this fast bomber. Both were also developed by private enterprises and not military decisions. As so both had the problem of being accepted. But in contrast to the Mosquito, Feldmarschall Milch did not hear on General Kammhuber to introduce the He 219 as night fighter because he was the opinion Germany couldn´t afford another special plane. So only 268 He 219 were built. Despite this low number I think the abilities of this plane speak for a staying in the game. Indeed the Ta 152 C and H variants were not build in much more exemplars. Why not introducing both?
Here is a list of German fighters and upgrade possibilities:

Me 110 Zerstörer --> Me 110 Nachtjäger
Ju 88 --> Ju 188
Me 109 E --> Me 109 F --> Me 109 G --> Me 109 K
FW 190 A --> FW 190 D
He 219
Adler
There is no doubt that the 219 was a truly great aircraft. The record speaks for itself. The Ta 152 development was hampered by similar rivalries and politics I think... In any event I only built two examples of the 219 for my game. I try to limit building units that weren't produced in any great numbers. Just a personal preference. That said... It was fun to fly air superiority missions but unfortunately the Russian airforces in my game were largely inadequate. My FW 190 and Bf 109 squadrons advanced to at elite levels very quickly. I had soon rotated all my fighter and bomber squadrons through the Russian front to gain elite experience. By games end it was a rare occurrence to see any of my aircraft shot down by anything other than a city AA.
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Old Aug 18, 2005, 09:46 AM   #3700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IarnGreiper
With all respect, you are wrong, Panzer III (originally named Sdkfz (Sonderkraftfahrzeug) 141) and Panzer IV (Sdkfz 161)were two different design concepts that existed along each other for about the first half of the war. The Panzer IV was invented before WW2 broke out and some early versions took part of the first battles of WW2. However the design turned out to be superior to the Panzer III design late (with the Panzer IV F2 version, which made the Panzer III obsolete). In early versions the Panzer IV was superior in defense but not in terms of firepower. Up to Version E the Panzer IV was compareable to the Panzer III in terms of offense. Panzer IVF2 turned out to be the strongest offense seen up to this date. However most production lines of the Panzer III platforms were used until very late in the war, however most of the late platforms were used for StuG III. The Panzer IV design was superior from the F2 design to the invention of Panzer V (Sdkfz 171).
However in this scenario both are part of tech land 1942. Maybe the panzer IV could be moved to an earlier tech, since most players avoid building them when Panthers are available (which is sensible from a historic point of view)

Good post. From a historical point of view, you are correct. These two armored unit were originally designed for different purpose: Panzer III against armored target, Panzer IV against infantry and fortification. Both had numerous version in order to deal with the ever changing war situation. Later in the war, the need for a good anti-tank tank was felt and they started experimenting with bigger gun (75mm) on the Panzer IV. At that point, Panzer IV was a more capable tank compared to the Panzer III. Regardless, they continued to produce the Panzer III but more in its assault gun version, the Stug III.

Of course, which tank was better is debatable. Regardless of that fact, all tank models were manufactured. Krupp made the Pz IV. Daimler-Benz made the Pz III.

I like your idea to move the Panzer IV earlier in the tech tree.

So the proposed scenario change could be resumed to :
1) Move up (earlier) the Pz IV in the tech tree and maybe adjust (slightly lower) some of its stats
2) Make the Pz III upgrade to Stugg III

Last edited by DarthCycle; Aug 18, 2005 at 09:52 AM.
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