SGOTM6 - Team jeffelammar

[Wanderer]

Hmm - my bad about the settlers. I think I got them like that, but I'm not sure.

I see London has horses and iron Knights if we can't get them...

Take your time bed_head... it seems like you've got quite a few of my mistakes/ignorance to fix....

[jeffelammar]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Hmm - my bad about the settlers. I think I got them like that, but I'm not sure.

They settler factories we down when I passed the save on to you. Just so you know...

Originally Posted by Jeffelammar

I shut down the Settler factories for a little while to build libraries for the culture. Also I had a surplus for the moment. We will need to turn them on again later though.

Originally Posted by denyd

"Lugdunum and Entremont on Libraries - these to go back to settler's afterwards?"

Yes until we fill up the available land then another culture building (cathedral or collesseum).

Don't get too down on yourself there are a lot of details to keep track of.

We discuss a lot of strategy in this thread. One thing I often do is before I play I open up notepad and make a 5 to 10 bullet point reminder list for things to do for the next turn.

Based on the discussions between my turn set and yours, my bullets would have been...
1. Entremont and Lugdunum (maybe Alesia) back to settlers.
2. Take empty army to Japan and load there.
3. Build Horses and Warriors for upgrade as appropriate.
4. Remember to check for pop rush each turn.
5. War on Japan and Carthage as troops are in position.

It usually takes me about 10 minutes to build a list like this. It keeps me focused on my goals for the turnset.

Please take all of this as it is meant (Constructive criticism)
We all started off as players who didn't know all this stuff and didn't always pay enough attention. We all got better by playing in GOTM and reading this site.

Originally Posted by bed_head7

9s/turn is not a great number. Don't leave cities like that, if possible. 7s/turn is pretty bad too. Makes sure to remember to short rush temples once 10s are in the box. Emphasize growth in all cities that are too corrupt to get any more than 1s/turn. Growth is our production. We also do not build units in cities without barracks.

I want to elaborate a bit on these points. This is to explain why.
We are building 2 types of units at this point.
Warriors - 10 shields.
Horsemen - 30 shields.

for both of these units there are certain shield counts that are more efficient.
At 7 spt if you build a warrior: 7 + 7 = 14 (waste 4 shields)
At 7 spt if you build a horseman: 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 = 35 (waste 5)

At 9 spt if you build a warrior: 9 + 9 = 18 (waste 8 shields)
At 9 spt if you build a horseman: 9 + 9 + 9 + 9 = 36 (waste 6)

The same calculations work for just about anything else since all builds (except the curragh) are multiples of 10.

Since shield usually come as a trade off for food, you are better off micro-managing your city to make more efficient use of shields.

If you can pump up to 10 spt, that is the best since it doesn't waste any shields.
If not, then 8 spt allows horsemen with only 2 wasted shields.

Bed_head made a point several posts back about not wanting to build horses at 14 spt. 14 spt gives a horse every 3 turns with 12 wasted shields. 15 spt gives a horse every 2 turns with no wasted shields.
Over a 10 turn set this is 5 horses instead of 3.33. Big difference

@Wanderer : We are a team here, and while you are playing with some very experienced players, that is no reason for you to feel intimidated. Just keep asking questions, pay attention to the answers and we will do fine.

[CKS]

Originally Posted by bed_head7

... considering that this is a competition and the already huge size of our empire, my progress will be slow.

I don't think we're in a big rush to play. Take all the time you want.

Those of you who are really good need to take your time so the game is set up for those of us who aren't. Those of us who aren't will take our time so that we don't dig ourselves in a big hole. I tend to have two problems playing by myself: not planning far enough ahead and not being careful enough as I play. This format makes us plan together and gives me a little incentive to play slowly and carefully. Knowing that the rest of you also have to stop and think makes me feel better, somehow.

(If we ever get to feeling that things are taking too long, we can switch to fewer turns each. That will make it seem faster.)

[denyd]

BH: Please don't hurry on my account. I've got a 10GB hard disk to install, a system to back up and a Windows 2K OS to install (my new Norton Install trashed some key files. I have a playable machine right now, however I have no virus filter, so I'm in non-internet mode at home. (work is fine, so I can get/post the saves from here)

As for the game, I'm no longer worried about winning. We've got enough land/production to take on the world right now if we had to. The keys now are speed to the 100K mark. That means more cities with temples, libraries, etc (things that give culture). We are currently researching to Military Tradition (cavalry), Steam Power (railroads) and Communism (better government) then to Minituarization (for the Internet and all those free research labs). Until then, just keep hammering away on Carthage & Japan and build a small SOD in the homeland to clean up what's left of China. Once Carthage & Japan are gone move on to India. It's pretty much capture & kill to the domination limit, while filling in with settlers and building culture. I'm not sure we even need any additional troops to finish off the known world.

[jeffelammar]

Originally Posted by denyd

As for the game, I'm no longer worried about winning. We've got enough land/production to take on the world right now if we had to. The keys now are speed to the 100K mark. That means more cities with temples, libraries, etc (things that give culture). We are currently researching to Military Tradition (cavalry), Steam Power (railroads) and Communism (better government) then to Minituarization (for the Internet and all those free research labs). Until then, just keep hammering away on Carthage & Japan and build a small SOD in the homeland to clean up what's left of China. Once Carthage & Japan are gone move on to India. It's pretty much capture & kill to the domination limit, while filling in with settlers and building culture. I'm not sure we even need any additional troops to finish off the known world.

I agree with this completely. The only thing we might consider is that in 50AD India was working on Sun-Tsu.
So was someone else.

I don't know how that race is forming up, but we may want to tackle the Iroquois before India if it looks like India will finish it for us if we wait a little longer. I'd hate to force them to stop building it a couple turns before completion because of an invasion.

[Whomp]

Here here all!!! It is important to understand the critical few objectives (CFO's). If I could suggest one more thing. For me a picture tells a story. Being a visual person that picture will allow for better strategy and discussion amongst the team.
..and of course to view all our new real estate!!

[bed_head7]

110 AD (3) - Not much last few turns. Numidian Mercs are tough, and the Japanese have the great wall. Assembling a force to take the Great Wall and make the rest easier.

170 AD (6) - Declare on the Chinese. They keep on getting in the way. Capture Shantung.

190 AD (7) - The Great Wall is no more.





IT - Babylon declared war on us and razed a newly founded city that was undefended.

250 AD (10) - Make peace with China. The units over there need to heal some, and I am a bit worried something might land so I don't want the units to be otherwise occupied. Get a couple small cities in peace.

I am thinking we make peace with Japan and take their one tile island, or make peace with Carthage and get a couple of smaller cities. My preference is to make peace with Japan, as all of the units over there need some time to heal and aren't getting it at the moment. Get an RoP, sign them in against Carthage, and once Carthage is gone turn around and finish them off.

I played a little fast and loose with the Gallic Swords, which I regret. I really wish I hadn't lost as many as I did. We had no leader luck, and little luck anywhere else, so hopefully the next ten will go better. We could really use another army.

Monotheism is known by one. Hopefully another will get it soon so that we can build knights. Not much else on the tech front.

As you can see, I don't write too much in my logs unless I really have something to say, and even then I don't always articulate myself well enough. So if anyone ever needs any more info, just ask and I'll try to provide it.

We can get three more cities along this river. Take advantage of fresh water. We have done a good job of it for the most part, but there are some spots where we could have placed cities to get better use of one of the few despotic bonuses we can get.



Even though I didn't make note of all of it, we did make solid gains in Carthage, not so much in Japan, though Japan should be feeling a little weaker. Still, getting them against Carthage and with an RoP, they can waste more units then we can move in for the kill once Carthage is gone. We have three places working on settlers, but with all the tiles in use in that area they don't quite run in four turns. Maybe they would, but I didn't manage it anywhere but Entremont. Keep 'em going, and maybe send some towards Japan, as they have a settler going over to replace Kyoto. Those lands are relatively productive and with a fair amount of river. Being able to settle without escorts and with impunity is another advantage to peace with Japan.

[Wanderer]

@ Jeff, BH:

Thanks for the responses - I am learning a LOT from the explanations. I did get BH's previous comment about 14spt horses, but of course now it makes a LOT more sense.

I guess I am used to always trying to max productivity, largely because I very rarely pop-rush, and frequently I end up in my games with unhappiness due to city growth. Your explanations make a LOT of sense.

I did see Jeff's quote abuot the settler's being "down", but didn't think far enough ahead to turn them back on after the librarues - I guess I thought we needed to concentrate a little on the culture buildings.

I also did not know that colossuem's were such a bad culture option - you base that on the culture vs. the shield cost ?

@Jeff - the "points to consider" option is a nice tip, I will make a point of using it, thanks!

Given the discussions above, would our current points be:
1>Focus on culture buildings (temple, then library, then anything, lastyl colosseums)
2> only troops are horsemen, until we get chivalry, then connect iron and upgrade to knights.
3>No sci until eduation happens - save gold for horse-> chiv upgrade
4>Finish of carth & Japan (are we razing or taking?)
5>Have a contingency army for China (I left about 4 to 6 GS's near canton in my turn, as I recall).
6>only capturing wonders - not building
7>Get settler factories going again (do we build continuously or is there a number in mind, like say 10 ro 20 ?)

CiaO

[Wanderer]

@BH:

I thought we said that getting rid of Japan, with their Samaurai UU, was priority? The Carthagians are a little more difficult, atm, I thought, with their numidians, so getting hold of them with our knights might be better? Just a thought....

[Whomp]

I still think the Japanese should be a priority. It will be much more difficult to root the Samurais out with a 4-4-2. If we take their last iron they're through and no GA. They are fighting with regs too.

There doesn't seem to be much issue filling in with settlers. Worst case I checked the Indians and they would give a MA with a ROP and either spices or 215g. It may help to refocus their attention on military and gas em a bit. They will eventually be on the radar.

With the Japanese we could also pick up more horses, iron and add 2 ivorys to our lux giving us 6. That's a lot of happy people at 6. I say consolidate a bit and then charge again.

To me the numidians are less of an issue when we get Knights.

[jeffelammar]

After a quick look at the save I think we should make peace with Japan. If we stay at war, we will lose a bunch of troops and workers this turn. Also, almost every troop on the Japan side is injured.

I also think that once we get Monotheism, we should consider self-research of Chivalry. I don't know if we want to wait for the AI to research it. We won't be able to make too much more military progress till we have Chivalry. We can't build more GS, and Medieval Infantry are just too slow.

I hate taking the risk of Japan getting Samurai, but given the tactical situation, I think discretion is the better part of valor.

[bed_head7]

Well, you do make a good point in that waiting for knights might be the way to go for Carthage. However, Samurais are not a worry to me at this point. Tech pace has been slooooooooow. I am not sure if we want to wait that long on Carthage. Though if we did get RoP and then move on Japan, we could go for India and then come back to Carthage with knights.

I suppose one of the reasons I wanted peace with Japan last night was just my terrible luck there. I shouldn't have said the RNG was bad overall. I got a little lucky in Carthage on a few occasions. But the Japanese swords were just unkillable. They attacked mupltiple fortified Gallics on mountains and never lost! On the attack, we lost one GS to a warrior and then another to an archer on the same turn. Because of my particularly bad luck the last turn in Japan, healing seems a big priority.

That redlined GS on the mountain, who never should have been there had I not been following the breadcrumbs (well, in this case regular archers) into Japanese territory. That single unit has four elite victories and has killed three archers and defended against two swords, after I fortified it on that mountain (so I guess I didn't lose all the GS that I fortified on mountains). Anyway, to keep that GS alive will require some luck. It would need to move over into the tundra probably, heal for a turn, move back to the mountain and hope no one is there that can attack, and hopefully then be able to rejoin the army.

So after all of this, I have almost changed my mind, maybe we should just keep slogging through.

Now to address Wanderer's points. Temples for us are 15s/1cp, libraries and cathedrals are just about 27s/1cp, and colosseums are 60s/1cp. All colosseums in progress in my turns hopefully can be switched to cathedrals before they finish, as Monotheism is known by one.

Keep building settlers the entire game, most likely. Entremont still has no culture, so maybe that could be slipped in at some point.

Capture any cities you can. Razing doesn't really help us as much as capturing, and our culture should help to deter flips.

And I did use your little army against China. I killed 8-10 spears and a couple of archers and lost 2-3 Gallics, so I gave up the fight until more reinforcements were available. All other points sound good.

Also, denyd, remember that we are at war with Babylon. That could get lost in my log, but I don't want you to wonder what is going on when they drop off units.

[bed_head7]

Okay, I now see jeff agrees with my original wish to make peace with Japan. We should only lose the regular horse and three Japanese workers this turn, which wouldn't be terrible. That other gallic could be saved. But healing was my main concern, as it will be four turns before we could even do anything against Japan, and in that time they'd be sending units at us. Giving them a diversion would help us out, give time to heal and work on Carthage, and then maybe we can finish off Japan quickly. I do not think that Chivalry will come into play, so no Samurais.

[Whomp]

Don't we still have a MA with the Iroq. as well?
BTW the Americans can keep the Babs busy with a MA, ROP and gold or spices as well.

[bed_head7]

Oh, I seemed to have missed that we made a MA with the Iroquois. I guess that needs to be taken into account, if it is still active.

[Whomp]

We have a MA for 9 more turns with the Iroq. I think with that said the iron should be one of the priorities when we get healthy. If the workers are a concern the yellowed horse could double up. There is also a spear/settler right there to be had.

WW shouldn't be an issue for we can easily trade with the French and English for their luxs. We can also involve the Scans vs. the Babs so they don't jump on the dogpile. The Babs have numbers and the Scans (iron and horses) can match up better with them than the Americans.

If we don't MA with anyone we should trade our spices to India and Scans to keep them out of this.

[bed_head7]

War Weariness does not occur in despotism. And I guess if we have an alliance, we need to stay at war. I am not really concerned about any new opponents. Really, what are they going to do?

[Whomp]

I guess I never paid attention to WW during the AA prolly because there wasn't any.
You're right. The AI doesn't navigate so well and there's not much they can do about it.

We've got a nice mojo going so I hope the discussion can help us.

[CKS]

Since we have a military alliance against them, I'm in favor of staying at war with the Japanese a bit longer. I think we should pull back a bit and use the speed of our GS to pick them off as they approach us and then go back again. I don't think we need to worry about Samurai, but I don't want to trash our reputation.

We can run the 1/5 GS east to avoid trouble for a turn or two. The only thing we stand to lose is the horse with the workers, and we'll almost certainly get the workers back. I expect them to retreat under the spear.

Because of the MA, I'd rather make peace with Carthage. We can get 3 cities from them, and we'll not make speedy progress against them until we get knights anyway. An ROP with them would let us get troops to the east side of Japan fairly quickly, and about the time the western troops are ready to go on the attack again we'd be able to hit them from both sides. Japan should then be nearly gone by the time our MA runs out. Then we can move on to India or get into position to take on Carthage again with knights.

I'm not too worried about Babylon. They only really have access to Shantung, which they could get if they were smart about it, but I doubt if they will be.

On an unrelated note, I think we should trade with England for some luxes. They will take ancient age techs.

[Whomp]

There is also a yellow lined horse that can go on top of the red lined horse if we want to save those workers. There's a possibility the horse would back off and then we would save the red lined horse as well as the workers.

I'm with CKS those two luxs with Liz are easy pickups. Plus she can only chose one government.

The ROP and 3 cities with the Carths sounds like a great plan to eliminate the Japanese. They really do have a lot to take with iron, horse, 2 ivory and another fur.

It may make sense to run the 2 MP warriors to the coast after we pick up the luxs to cover the cities the babs are threatening.