Should we gift China?

[mad-bax]

Should we make a gift of 10g + 1gpt to China if their attitute is ever worse than polite, and then renew the 1gpt every 20 turns?

The External Consulates position is that this gift will be beneficial in developing China as a trading partner and ally. I therefore urge all citizens to vote "YES".

Note: The "Other" option means that you agree with gifting China, but would choose a gift other than the one proposed by the consulate.

[DaveShack]

Has there been discussion on this? I'm not sure I know enough to make an informed decision.

[Ashburnham]

Offhand, I would say no. We have enough on our plate at the moment for us to throw money away. Leave China to the Chinese. We'll worry about them once we've dealt with our immediate neighbors.

But, I'll hold off on voting for now. I'd like to see some real arguments for both sides.

[Bertie]

Originally Posted by DaveShack

Has there been discussion on this? I'm not sure I know enough to make an informed decision.

There's been some discussion in mad-bax's external consulate thread (HERE) .

I think gifting China is a smart move. I list some of my reasons in this post in mad-bax's thread. China is an aggressive neighbor and it's important to keep them tame as long as possible.

[cavvie]

I'm going to vote a qualified Yes. I agree with the reasons to do so but would agree that we don't want to run into financial troubles entering a war by 10 + 1gpt which is always possible. The longer we wait to secure our war efforts before gifting the Chinese the better.

[ravensfire]

Abstain - the idea of a gift is fine, but the specifics should be from Director of Commerce.

Consuls determine the broad goals and create plans, Directors handle the specifics and issue instructions.

That said, I support the idea.

-- Ravensfire

[blackheart]

No. We shouldn't give concessions to anyone.

[Furiey]

I would rather gift consiously than give in to demands to all and sundry.

I voted yes, but there are details to be worked out; whether we can afford it, do we have multiple 1gpt deals all being renewed etc, so as this is a strategy discussion I took this to be the principle of a deal of this kind, the exact details would come under the Tactical Director.

[Black_Hole]

Originally Posted by ravensfire

Abstain - the idea of a gift is fine, but the specifics should be from Director of Commerce.

Consuls determine the broad goals and create plans, Directors handle the specifics and issue instructions.

That said, I support the idea.

-- Ravensfire

I agree, the commerce director should be determining the specifics of this, as per the constitution

[mad-bax]

I disagree actually. My interpretation is that I decide what resources I need to execute my plan. If I need gold, then I apply to the Director of Commerce for it. He either grants or denies the request.

Perhaps I should ask for a JR on the subject?

Here is the relevent section from article E of the constitution:-

2. Director of Commerce - Decides on foreign affairs and trading. Sets exact tech queue. Manages budget. Adjusts slider and approves/denies requests from leaders regarding the use of gold. Also decides on espionage missions.

Note also, that the gift will only be made if China's attitude drops from polite to cautious or annoyed. I am not proposing that we just make the gift willy nilly.

I wish people would read what they are voting for. :grr:

[blackheart]

Originally Posted by mad-bax

I disagree actually. My interpretation is that I decide what resources I need to execute my plan. If I need gold, then I apply to the Director of Commerce for it. He either grants or denies the request.

Note also, that the gift will only be made if China's attitude drops from polite to cautious or annoyed. I am not proposing that we just make the gift willy nilly.

I wish people would read what they are voting for. :grr:

Here's the constitution:

4. Consul for External Policy - Oversees long term planning
of policy regarding other nations. This includes
military plans, long term foreign affairs, and long term
trading goals.

What mad-bax says is true, it's basically like last DG when people had to ask Domestic Minister to approve their spending.

I'd also like to point out Furiey has raised valid concern. We need to take into account other factors (affordibility, other long term plans, current/future relationship, etc.) when gifting.

[Furiey]

Ah but the person who translates the Consul's Strategic plan into day to day action is the Tactical Director who would be the one to request the funds etc. At least that's my understanding of how this 2 layer government is meant to work.

[Black_Hole]

Originally Posted by Furiey

Ah but the person who translates the Consul's Strategic plan into day to day action is the Tactical Director who would be the one to request the funds etc. At least that's my understanding of how this 2 layer government is meant to work.

that is correct

the Consul might say: "Gift china when nessecary, to keep them polite with us"
The Commerce Director would then decide when and how much to gift them

[mad-bax]

This is a poll and not a discussion of the constitution. I will ask for a JR.

[Furiey]

Yes - a JR would be best. I didn't intend to get into a discussion on the government here which I'm struggling with myself, just to say that I supported this gifting as a policy. I did vote yes to this.

[DaveShack]

I have to vote no, not because it's a bad idea to do this gift, nor because it's not setup according to the intended separation of powers between offices. Why then vote against a seemingly good idea you ask? There are a few pitfalls:

• This policy is specific to China. Don't we really want to answer the question if we want to use gifts to manipulate AI attitudes and then leave implementation to the time and place?
• Right now we would be voting to renew the deal indefinitely. What if we decide we need to acquire some Chinese land?
• Instead of renewing automatically we should watch their attitude and make a new gift when their attitude changes.
• If we can obtain the same effect (improved relations) with simple trading, let's try that first.
• I have used the same technique and got attacked anyway. It might be better to think of China as dangerous but dormant than to think of them as friends. This will avoid a false sense of security.

[Octavian X]

For the record, as Director of Commerce, I have no objections to this poll. The wording of this poll is setting out a policy toward the Chinese - that we use a gift of gold to maintain polite relations with the Chinese. In any case, it's simply one less poll that I have to worry about.

[mad-bax]

The vote is closed and the people have spoken.
I have considered the presidents words and will open a discussion on the principle of gifting at a later date.

The consulates policy will be ammended presently.