Keep improving Teturkan!

[opus95]

I really like the scenarios which simulate the "Real World". (With as many civilizations as possible). One thing I've really found annoying, though, is the ridiculous use of the Arctic Ocean as a superhighway. Before the age of ice-breakers, or submarines (to go under the ice-cap) it was virtually impossible to navigate the Artic Ocean without being lost at sea. North of about 65 degrees latitude, and 65 degrees south in the southern hemisphere, there should be a SEVERE penalty (overwhelming chance to be lost at sea) by any ships before the modern age.

An interesting variant to this scenario would be to have the "Old World" real, with all the old world civilizations as is, while there could be random "New Worlds" to discover, with a few more "New World" civilizations, such as Mayas, Toltecs, Plains Indians, etc.

It's a great game, however, and I enjoy it very much.

[mastertyguy]

I think the arctic ocean is kind of represented by the ice cap near the poles. is it?

[sir_schwick]

I think 'ice berg' terrain modifier for water squares would be good. It would be like the 'forest' terrain superposition.

There could be a few levels:

Minimal - Normal ships can pass through, but at a risk of sinking. Any icebreakers can make a path.
Light - Nuclear Submarines can pass through without a pass. Any icebreakers can make a path.
Medium - No ships can pass through without a path. Requires Heavy Icebreaker or Nuclear Icebreaker to make a path.
Heavy - No ships can pass through without a path. Requires Nuclear Icebreaker to make a path.

Ice breakers:
These ships can travel into ice berg squares and 'make a path'. This is a lot like cutting down a forest, sans the shield bonus.

Ice breaker - Early ships appearing at end of middle age techs(I know no eras, just a time thing)
Heavy Ice Breaker - Once you get techs that allow big ships and deisel engines.
Nuclear Ice Breaker - Once you get the techs for nuclear reactors.

[opus95]

Your suggestions for levels of icebergs is OK, but my main point is... in the TeTurkhan scenarios, which simulate the real earth, (more or less) I'm always seeing heavy galley traffic (Indonesian, Japanese, Persian, Chinese, etc.) going past the north coast of North America and past the north coast of Siberia. This is completely unrealistic. No one that I know of in history was able to negotiate a "Northwest Passage" to get from the Atlantic to the Pacific Ocean (going westwards), nor going from, say, Scandinavia to the Bering Strait, but in the game, this is routine movement, and it's really a-historical and annoying.

For the game, the designers should decide on a historically accurate latitude which would be a cut-off point for relatively safe navigation in arctic (or antarctic) waters, especially before the advent of powerful engines and screw propellers.

[Malba]

Originally Posted by sir_schwick

I think 'ice berg' terrain modifier for water squares would be good. It would be like the 'forest' terrain superposition.

There could be a few levels:

Minimal - Normal ships can pass through, but at a risk of sinking. Any icebreakers can make a path.
Light - Nuclear Submarines can pass through without a pass. Any icebreakers can make a path.
Medium - No ships can pass through without a path. Requires Heavy Icebreaker or Nuclear Icebreaker to make a path.
Heavy - No ships can pass through without a path. Requires Nuclear Icebreaker to make a path.

Ice breakers:
These ships can travel into ice berg squares and 'make a path'. This is a lot like cutting down a forest, sans the shield bonus.

Ice breaker - Early ships appearing at end of middle age techs(I know no eras, just a time thing)
Heavy Ice Breaker - Once you get techs that allow big ships and deisel engines.
Nuclear Ice Breaker - Once you get the techs for nuclear reactors.

I think that is too confusing. How would you be able to tell one apart from another? They should try just light and heavy.

[sir_schwick]

Yeah I guess that is a lot of different terrain. Light could just be some icebergs in the square, heavy is nearly a sheet of ice. We could also eliminate the basic ice breaker ships and make ice breaking only practical in the deisel ship time.

[searcheagle]

Originally Posted by sir_schwick

Ice breakers:
These ships can travel into ice berg squares and 'make a path'. This is a lot like cutting down a forest, sans the shield bonus.

Ice breaker - Early ships appearing at end of middle age techs(I know no eras, just a time thing)
Heavy Ice Breaker - Once you get techs that allow big ships and deisel engines.
Nuclear Ice Breaker - Once you get the techs for nuclear reactors.

I'm not in favor of this idea. But how would you work the Ice breakers? I wouldnt want to have to run an ice breaker every turn.

[rhialto]

I don't think ice breaker units is the way to go. I firmly believe teh only non-combat units present should be those you use to either build a city or interact with another civ. Anything else lacks thrill factor.

Add having a unit to clear iceburgs doesn't make sense on a civ timescale. Ice grows back far faster than trees. iirc, teh prime use of icebreakers is to clear a path to the immediate vicinity of a harbour in the spring/autumn of seasonal (=frozen over in winter) harbours.

Id have two extra terrain types instead:

ice cap - frozen solid. nuclear subs can enter, as it has no need to surface. Optionally, light land unts (those with chassis type 'foot' or similar) can enter, but suffer horrific 'hostile terrain' penalties.

iceburgs - any ship can enter, but suffers from 'hostile terrain' penalties. Some ships may suffer more than others, depending on chassis type.

[sir_schwick]

The ice-breaker would 'make a path', like building a road. It would represent the idea of the ice-breaker fleet coming each spring and trying to break through. Since most ice is not feasible until Nuclear Icebreakers, it really could only liberate a few areas beforehand.

[rhialto]

But sir schwick, unless that same unit stays in that tile, the ice will reform perfectly each winter, and in ice-forming season, will actually reform enough to become as hazardous as before in days. It just doesnt make sense that a unit could permanently remove ice from teh area short of some serious global warming effects.

[sir_schwick]

The assumption is that the unit is returning to that square every spring(maybe ice berg paths should cost gold). It takes ships turns to reach another destination, but shipping obviously travels back and forth between cities eveyr year. Same abstraciton.

[opus95]

Yes, Rhialto, your idea is what I had in mind...severe penalties to prevent unrealistic sea movement in arctic areas before the advent of strong engines. Forget the icebreaker idea. That's not what's important.

I'm talking specifically about the TeTurkhan scenarios, but of course, this idea can be expanded into all the fictional world scenarios, too.

[Krikkitone]

For the TeT scenarios, the easiest way would probably be to make that area a simple impassable terrain type (once you get to the modern age, there's other ways, such as air, of dealing with movement)