Essential tech help

[Aquilon]

I'm just interesting in what you think are the most essential techs for the beginning of the game. Say, up to Democracy. Assume I start with Alphabet. I already know of going this route.

Writing > Code of Laws > Literacy > The Republic.

Where should I go from there?

[Aquilon]

Little mistake in that you don't need Writing. Sorry!

[Stegyre]

You do need writing: it is a prerequisite for Literacy and it allows you to build diplomats, a very useful, early-game unit.
People have different strategies depending upon their overall approach: early conquest folks (who would probably better speak for themselves) would likely go for Monarchy, rather than Republic, as it's a much better early-conquest government (free unit support, settlers eat less, martial law, and it can be achieved faster than Rep.): Alp-CoL-Cer-Mon

From there, I think they head for Elephants: HBR-PT

On watery maps, Map Making will also be essential for transportation. Indeed, as one wants maps and transportation for almost all strategies, Map is essential, although I find that I can delay it in favor of more urgent needs.

I, like you (apparently) am an early-republic player. Entwined with that, I will also pursue Philosophy (Cer-Mys-Phil) for the extra tech advance (again, always nice, regardless of your strategy, temples and improved temples (both essential for an early republic at high levels).

Once I have an improved government (i.e., Republic), I am always aiming for Trade: BW-Cur-Tra. This enables two of the best early wonders (Colossus and MPE) and the best unit - the caravan (until Freights are available, anyway).

Once I have Trade, I head for Astronomy, for Cope's in the SSC: Mas(trade for it)-Mat-Ast.

From that point, you have a lot of options, so I'll shut up and let someone else opine.

[Aquilon]

I'm no EC player. I like to play the game through. I'm not at the level yet where I can get space flight any earlier than the 1800s, and I don't play past Prince. However, I enjoy it this way.

[ElephantU]

I like spaceship games too, but I prefer the earlier Monarchy-Trade-Philosophy-Republic route. I play mostly at Deity level, where citizen happiness is a concern once the city gets beyond size 1. In Republic you can grow fast as long as you have covered the happiness issues with wonders like Mikes or city improvements, but I like to use Monarchy for the initial city building phase when I'm pumping out Settlers and doing some irrigation. If you have gotten some trade going you can often set some Luxuries and get a Celebrating Monarchy, which gives extra trade arrows like a Republic but still preserves martial law and unit support.

Starting from no techs, I tend to go:
Alp-CoL-Cer-Bro-MON-Cur-TRA-Wri-Mys-Lit-Phi-Hor-PT-MT-REP-
(unfortunately, my new XP system is not permitting me to run CIV2PLAN, my favorite DOS-based tech planner which checks for the hidden techs as well, so this is probably off a bit)

Once you've covered the citizen unhappiness issues for a transition to Republic, the transition to Democracy is mostly just an issue of dealing with the unhappiness that early warships (Triremes and Caravels) create by being away from home. Getting Magnetism before Democracy permits Galleons which go a little further and don't cause unhappiness.

There is no "one best answer" to the question of tech path, but bear in mind that each additional tech you research or get from huts or other civs adds additional beakers to the research cost of the current tech, so minimizing the "extra" techs on your way to something critical like a better government or MonoTheism (MT) for Mikes will give you much earlier discovery times. Sometimes I will accept a tech trade from a civ I've just discovered in order to see what else they have that I don't. Another big reason for getting Trade is building Marco Polo, which gives you an intelligence report as if you had an embassy even with civs you have not met yet. You can then do a tech and map swap that makes you the "tech master" of the game.

[Rowan]

had an embassy even with civs you have not met yet. You can then do a tech and map swap that makes you the "tech master" of the game.

quote from elephant u



What is the story with tech and map swaps ? I never seem to get any!Thanks!

[TimTheEnchanter]

Originally Posted by Rowan

had an embassy even with civs you have not met yet. You can then do a tech and map swap that makes you the "tech master" of the game.

quote from elephant u



What is the story with tech and map swaps ? I never seem to get any!Thanks!

If you give gifts (techs) to other civs they will be much more willing to exchange techs. You have to be willing to give them techs realizing that the value to you in better relations is more important to you than the value to them of the tech.

To exchange maps, I think you need to either be at peace and make them "Enthusiastic" , or allied and make them at least cordial. You also BOTH have to posess map-making tech.

It helps to get these relations going early, before you get to be too large and seen as too big of a threat. Marco Polo is a godsend in this regard. Shortly after discovering Trade you can have immediate contact with every other civ and pick and choose the techs you want from them.

If you are aggressive from the get-go, and especially if you let your reputation become less-than-spotless, you will have much more difficulty as well. This requires you to "Play nice" for at least a little while.

Edit to add: If you are using the Multi-player Gold edition, it will be more difficult to pull this off because the AI attitudes reset to Uncooperative (or is it hostile?) after each turn, regardless of how nice you are or how much you gift to them.

[Peaster]

Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter

To exchange maps, I think you need to either be at peace and make them "Enthusiastic" , or allied and make them at least cordial. You also BOTH have to posess map-making tech.

...Edit to add: If you are using the Multi-player Gold edition, it will be more difficult to pull this off because the AI attitudes reset to Uncooperative (or is it hostile?) after each turn, regardless of how nice you are or how much you gift to them.

It's probably impossible to trade maps when at war (I don't think you can even get to the proposal menu), but AFAIK either "contact" or "cease fire" is just as good as "at peace" or "allied". The AI will not trade maps at "neutral" but very often trades at "cordial". If it refuses, you can almost always make more gifts, and try again and again in the same turn. It will always trade maps at "worshipful" (if you both have the map tech).

With MGE, you can do exactly the same thing, but not as often. Because you need a decent tech lead in order to make enough tech gifts. With MGE you can't let the AI cut off the talks, or your gifts have probably been wasted. I hear that bolder players also give away gold in a pinch, hoping to get it back thru conquest.

IMO trading techs is similar, but probably a little easier. I think "neutral" is often good enough, and of course there has to be a match. But this may depend on the AI's personality (and what kind of techs you can offer, etc). I haven't paid quite as much attention to tech trade patterns as to map trades.

[geofelt]

I play at deity/raging hordes. My first tech is horseback riding which is used to protect me from the barbarians. My first objective is to find a good palace building site, so I will spend a few turns tipping huts and trying to find a site with some trade and shields. I then try to build 4 cities ASAP and connect them with roads. I go for monarchy first. Any side techs will lead to trade first, or pottery.
I like monarchy because it takes only 1 food to support a settler instead of 2 for republic. This lets me expand faster.
Trade lets you build caravans which lets you get more of those early wonders. The first wonder I want built is hanging gardens. The 3 happy faces in your palace also gives you more science, and lets you expand to about 12 cities under monarchy.

[Carrot]

Originally Posted by ElephantU

Starting from no techs, I tend to go:
Alp-CoL-Cer-Bro-MON-Cur-TRA-Wri-Mys-Lit-Phi-Hor-PT-MT-REP-
(unfortunately, my new XP system is not permitting me to run CIV2PLAN, my favorite DOS-based tech planner which checks for the hidden techs as well, so this is probably off a bit)

Lit should come before Mys, but otherwise it's correct.

But I have no problems running civ2plan under WinXP so it should be fine for you too? I didn't have to do anything special for it to run.

[ElephantU]

A few months later I discovered I had two versions of Civ2Plan, the one on my XP machine did not map all the keys correctly. Upgrading the version solved the problem. Thanks for making the correction.

Looking back, it's amusing what changes I've tried in tech paths in only a year...

[Kessey]

I don't play well with others. My first choice is usually Masonryso I can get my city walls. Then I go for Monarchy ASAP before getting a few fighting techs. By then, I hope to have Sun Zu, Great Wall, and Great Library up and running.

Then it's off to Democracy so I can build the Statue of Liberty and gain access to Communism and Fundamentalism (I prefer the latter and somehow in my current game, have the techs in 1000 AD at every 5 turns, plus about 500 gold per turn).

After that, I go for Explosives (engineers), Tactics (alpine troops), Espionage (for obvious reasons), and Corporation (more $ to build more war machines). Along the way, I acquire whatever techs I missed from other countries, whether they're willing to give them up or not.


Take care,

Jay

[starlifter]

Then it's off to Democracy so I can build the Statue of Liberty and gain access to Communism and Fundamentalism (I prefer the latter and somehow in my current game, have the techs in 1000 AD at every 5 turns, plus about 500 gold per turn).

Ouch. Yeah, Fundamentalism -- especially when played with the classic style -- is painfully slow, with miniscule gold income. Yuck.

In Fundamentalism (PF), it is often best to set your luxuries to 30% (or more; celebrate key trade cities for arrows), set science to zero, and get an advance every turn. With caravans/freight. Your gold income per turn will typically only be approximately 1000-3000, however... but that is due to Fundamentalism's inability to grow cities by one citizen per turn during celebrations.

JS Bach and Michelangelo's Cathedral will give 5 gold per turn, per city, in tithes.... helpful, but woefully inferior to the benefit those towering two wonders can confer in a proper democracy.

[Millman]

I'm not an expert on those little tricks, but I increased the luxury rate in my power democracy and that science glitch occured where I discovered twenty or so advances a turn.

[starlifter]

I'm not an expert on those little tricks, but I increased the luxury rate in my power democracy and that science glitch occured where I discovered twenty or so advances a turn.

That's in the mid-hundreds (~160?) of Future Tech, if you have a large empire. What happens is that the game's capability to track the cost of science research "rolls over" and begins again at 10 science (like it is for the first advance. A city making say, 80 science, will pay for it (with a waste of 70), and grant the advance. The next advance will cost 20, and begin accumulating beakers from zero, and that advance will be quickly granted... and so on.

The highest sustained rate of science advancement without hitting the rollover limit I had in a comparison game (~GOTM 6 or 7) was six advances per turn (in future tech). To do this depends on play level and map size, too. But its not unrealistic to generate 10,000 to 14,000 beakers per turn in a fully developed Democracy, and the cost of a science advance (if you are supreme and the Purple civ still exists, and if you give it most of the tech tree) is ~3000 beakers.

[Ali Ardavan]

Originally Posted by starlifter

The highest sustained rate of science advancement without hitting the rollover limit I had in a comparison game (~GOTM 6 or 7) was six advances per turn (in future tech).

Amazing! I think the best I have ever achieved is 3.

[civdood]

The highest sustained rate of science advancement without hitting the rollover limit I had in a comparison game (~GOTM 6 or 7) was six advances per turn (in future tech).

You got 7. I looked it up. You too modest. But it was in future tech when advances mean nothing against enemy it is more important how you get 1 advance each turn in mid game when computer and most humans get 1 every 10 or 20 turns. Now I can do that when I read how and practice too. Now Civdood is early republican. My caravan have big teeth.

[starlifter]

by Civdood:
... it is more important how you get 1 advance each turn in mid game when computer and most humans get 1 every 10 or 20 turns.

You are exactly right. The important fork in the road is when you can rapidly zoom up the mid-late game tech tree. That is why you spend the early game resources on certain infrastructure (city improvements & wonders & trade routes & terrain improvements), instead of a large military. That is how you can land an early Spaceship, or fly a nuclear bomb onto the head of an enemy pikeman (and then clean up the mess, LOL...).