New NESes, ideas, development, etc

[TerrisH]

Interested.. but a bit miffed since everyone wants to start a fantasy NES up.

[Terrance888]

Originally Posted by General Olaf

I'm going to be running a NES myself - starting early next year, when I should have less commitments - based on the concept of city-states, rather than nations. The working title is "CityNES: Art of Living", and the basic concept invovles two different types of player working in pairs in each city; only one type of player sends orders, but the other gets more input into them. Do people think the idea has merit? I do have other ideas on how I could run the NES so if that's not a good one I'm perfectly happy to scrap it.

Because no one responded, and I HATE when no one responds, even if to say (won't play, but nice idea), to my ideas, I shall respond.

I'm guessing one player would be the "Lord" of the city, and the other player would be the "Nobles"? The Lord would send the skeleton orders and the other would send the fluff? If then, let me propose a very fun and dangerous alteration.

Spoiler:

Have 3 players per city state, three factions whose loyalties from minor factions are constantly shifting, given one or the other "Lord" status. The Lord will be limited to, oh, say 20 clauses of actions so he must be brief. Maybe he will set a budget for a certain project, claim one of his rivals the sole controller of a adventure, and inituate new ones.

Then, you can split up the 20 events among the two Nobles, perhaps letting the Lord house pursue 5 actions for himself. The two nobles, unless specifically assigned one, will write up each action: which member in their house, how they will use budjeted or household money, and hoe they will try to benefit.

The Lord of the Citystate gets to do direct diplomacy, and must use a city-state action to affirm diplomatic agreements (and a Noble gets to say how they intend to seal the deal- will they send an obnoxious fellow who will cut it off, or someone to gain them points in a faction).

All Nobles and Lord households gets household actions. This will be any city-state actions with details, along with personal deviousness. The Lord will have fewer Household actions, as they will be busy.

Example with 10 city state orders, 2 Lord Household. 3 Household Each+any random Citystate orders

City State Orders for Sarkov
1. We shall invade the city of Thloryn
2. No more than one half of our army shall follow.
3. Our Casus Belli is the poisoning of crops near our common border
4. We shall hunt down the pirates of Saltholm Islands
5. House Skorpio (InsertPlayerNameHere) shall lead this fleet
6. We will crack down on Bandits
7. We will sign an alliance(linky) with the City of Umbar
8. We will sign an agreement with the Watchmaker's Guild
9. House Tatius(INSERTPLAYERNAMEHERE shall oversee this meeting
10. We will save X amount in the Bank of Sarkov

Lord Orders: House Blackfyre
1. We will plan to assassinate the Tatian diplomat on the way to the Watchmaker's Guild. then send our own some hours late and say that the Tatians feel that they are above workers like the Watchmakers, and refused to come.
2. We will continue to build our fortified villa.

Noble Orders: House Skorpio
Recieved:
1.3.4.7.
1. Our general shall be Skorpio Exellentus, blah blah tactics blah blah go gentle
3. We will only send a messanger, appologizing for our assignment, to declare war. We want to retain our friendship with Thloryn's Watchmaker's guild
4. Our Admiral shall be Skorpio Darius, blah blah tactics blah blah capture and make part of household fleet
7. We will send Skorpio Loquatious, who will also get us more merchant contacts in the south seas
House Orders
1. We will try to gain influence among the Black Powder Guild blah blah
2. We will try to assassinate whoever gets to gather the troops for the thloryn war, so that we can delay the march.
3. We will secretly marry Skorpio Heleniscus to the Lord of Thloryn. If we can get their army to invade Sarkov we might become the next lord!

Noble Orders: House Tatius
Recieved:
2. 6. 8.10.
2. We really want to take that fertile borderland, since ours got poisoned. Along with half of our troops, raise 200 Umbarian mercenaries to help. blah blah.
6. YES! We will make a tactic seemingly defeating them, but instead we will make a secret agreement. They will march on Thloryn according to X pm agreement.
8. Meh, don't really care about them. Let them visit in our villa, so we can at least be safe from traveling assassination! Oh, there's a war? Too bad, maybe they want to assassinate one of our high-ranking diplomats traveling through a WaR ZoNE!
10. Secretly store it in our high-interest fund in the Crusades, and shift our own bank account to match, which will allow us a lower balance than they want, but still get us interest.
House Orders
1. We seriously need to blow up the Black Powder Guild, or else my heavy cavalry will be useless
2. We will try to assassinate that Skorpio Loquatious, becaue he's so good at making allies for the House Skorpio
3. We will sign contract X to get 1000 Umbarian mercenaries, 200 to go to plan 2 and 500 to hunt the bandits.

As you can see, I am enjoying myself already. . Is this sort of what you want?

[KaiserElectric]

The above idea has merit. Sounds a lot like a small-scale version of Realpolitik.

[TerrisH]

that actualy looks interesting.

[Optical]

That's awesome. I think I might just have to use that.

Now we're cooking with, um, er...

what did they cook with in the Renaissance? ()

[Terrance888]

Knives and Spoons. Forks are the "Things of the Devil"

You'll probably have to define very carefully what a "City-State Action" limit is. It might be one sentence, only to face giant sentenses. You might want a combination of a hard cap on the number of words and some set actions. (i.e. signing a treaty is always one action, which can include such minor side trips as X in city-state action)

Just would be very fun. You will have Three Houses: two can unite, but only one can take Lordship and thus control of the Armies, Navies, Diplomacy and Secret Police.

Not sure what will happen if a Noble House is exterminated (will take several turns of investment, I guess, to just get prepared), if a city state gets conquered, not subjugated in favor of another more friendly Noble House; and other fun stuff.

Maybe, if there are only a handful of city states (Say, 5), let players play guilds and mercenaries too!!!

Sounds like Nessos now, a bit.

[Northen Wolf]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dude

I'm starting to take renewed interest in NESing, and was thinking about maybe having another go at a fantasy NES. It would be somewhat like the Sekai ones, in that players would be allowed to play as countries, groups (ranging from a guild spanning multiple countries to a small band of adventurers), and perhaps individuals. I was thinking updates that cover one month, so that smaller-scale players aren't overwhelmed and larger-scale players can still not go at an awkward pace.

I'd probably make a Pre-NES where players help shape the history of the part of the world we'll play in. This will mainly be done so I'm not working with a completely blank slate when working with the world's history. It'll help determine where certain races are located, where particular artifacts can be found, and other neat details. Plus I'll just try to make it an overall fun experience

Opinions or interest?

[North King]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dude

I'm starting to take renewed interest in NESing, and was thinking about maybe having another go at a fantasy NES. It would be somewhat like the Sekai ones, in that players would be allowed to play as countries, groups (ranging from a guild spanning multiple countries to a small band of adventurers), and perhaps individuals. I was thinking updates that cover one month, so that smaller-scale players aren't overwhelmed and larger-scale players can still not go at an awkward pace.

I'd probably make a Pre-NES where players help shape the history of the part of the world we'll play in. This will mainly be done so I'm not working with a completely blank slate when working with the world's history. It'll help determine where certain races are located, where particular artifacts can be found, and other neat details. Plus I'll just try to make it an overall fun experience

Opinions or interest?

Including individuals would be cool.

[Optical]

Originally Posted by Terrance888

Knives and Spoons. Forks are the "Things of the Devil"

You'll probably have to define very carefully what a "City-State Action" limit is. It might be one sentence, only to face giant sentenses. You might want a combination of a hard cap on the number of words and some set actions. (i.e. signing a treaty is always one action, which can include such minor side trips as X in city-state action)

Just would be very fun. You will have Three Houses: two can unite, but only one can take Lordship and thus control of the Armies, Navies, Diplomacy and Secret Police.

Not sure what will happen if a Noble House is exterminated (will take several turns of investment, I guess, to just get prepared), if a city state gets conquered, not subjugated in favor of another more friendly Noble House; and other fun stuff.

Maybe, if there are only a handful of city states (Say, 5), let players play guilds and mercenaries too!!!

Sounds like Nessos now, a bit.

This was the map,

Spoiler:

so I imagine guilds and mercenaries won't be needed given the number of cities. I must admit the idea was one I entertained for a while though. Maybe NPCs.

[Lord_Iggy]

Having small 'teams' of NESers in each city is a very intriguing idea that I like quite a bit. I haven't been in a 'team' NES since the aborted WW1 NES where I was a Hungarian Field Marshall serving under Emperor Symphony D.

[Symphony D.]

I was Field Marshal Conrad von Hötzendorf, not Franz Joseph I.

[Lord_Iggy]

Apologies. It's been a while.

[Ninja Dude]

Originally Posted by Lord_Iggy

I express interest on behalf of myself and Luckymoose. We know Lucky wants in on this.

Lucky clearly hates me... But I guess I could let him in whenever I decide to start this

Originally Posted by electric926

Interested. Will it be entirely story based, or will you have number crunching involved?

Haven't decided details yet. For countries and city-states stats might look something like this example
Name / Dol'hima
Government / Magocracy
Culture / Dol Dwarven in cities and mountains, Harraresh Humans and Giants in the lowlands, tiny Barbeng Merfolk minority in coastal towns
Military / Heavy Dol Infantry make up bulk of armies, advanced siege engines, ancient Ghizraheth Automatons, Enslaved Giants, earth-mages supplement armies
Companies: 35
Money (-military upkeep): 15,000 (-8,000)
Projects: Hellforge (3,000/20,000)
Description:

Spoiler:

Long ago Dol earth mages settled near Delheim Pass, feeling an odd energy there. After much effort, they unearthed great beings of iron and bronze, composed of gears and machines of unimaginable complexity. Amazed by their discovery, the mages established fort Dol'hima to protect their new treasures and tinker with them in isolation. However, as dragons and beastmen ravaged the region, immigrants streamed into Dol'hima, seeking refuge and a means to take back their lands. Finally, High Mage Urist Khrastgem agreed to go forth to meet the invaders, bringing with him a small army of experienced mages, and their towering automatons. The beastmen proved to be no match for the combined magical and physical force the Dwarves brought to the battlefield, and only the hottest dragon fire could melt the automatons. Eventually the Dwarves of Dol'hima found themselves in possession of a vast empire, having pushed out the beastmen and secluding the remaining dragons to the most isolated and high peaks. Some humans believe they may have traded one cruel master for another, but their fellow Dwarves love the change, preferring to dwell on matters of profit, magic, and industry while the humans dwell on agriculture and other "unimportant" arts.

I could definitely tweak it, and I'm open to suggestions. Religion would definitely be included, if I had any random ideas to throw into the example at this time Factions could also be a possibility. Companies would be approx. 1,000 individuals each, although depending on the nation it could vary. Composition could also vary. A kingdom ruled by..lets say Ulgaf The Giant might have companies of only 250 men, but would be comprised of heavily armored giants who bring with them giant man-eating boars. On the opposite end of the spectrum, the Merfolk Republic of Koralintis might be able to hire companies of 3,000, equipped with hastily scavenged armor from sunken ships.

And yes, I'm pulling these example names out of my ass

Originally Posted by TerrisH

Interested.. but a bit miffed since everyone wants to start a fantasy NES up.

This always seems to be the case. I've just gotten sick of waiting.

Originally Posted by North King

Including individuals would be cool.

I'm glad you think so! For individual stats I'd probably just have

Name
Age
Race
Religion
Magic Ability
Inventory
Description

I could add something like "Renown" or "Infamy", depending on how your character is viewed in certain places. For instance, a traveling monk who blesses those he comes across while in a predominantly halfling region and fights off various beasts could become very famous in that area. But when he ventures into a kingdom of beastmen, he could be very infamous, becoming a harbinger of death to the locals.

Edit: Damn it, of course I need a map for all of this...

[Luckymoose]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dude

Lucky clearly hates me... But I guess I could let him in whenever I decide to start this

Considering I had planned to make my own such NES this summer. Yes, you'd better let me in.

[Thlayli]

As I said in #nes, I'd be interested Ninja.

You should have a dedicated team of people (no more than 5-6) to work on the pre-NES. (And it looks like you already have one!) If you don't want to player-limit the main NES that's fine, but you should actively encourage less-confident writers to post their story materials in the Creative Writing thread for comment and criticism (or privately review them yourself) before dumping them in the NES thread.

Nothing ruins a fantasy NES more than bad writing.

[Luckymoose]

Originally Posted by Thlayli

Nothing ruins a fantasy NES more than bad writing.

That is not fair to the less competent writers out there. A storyNES at its core is an environment for nurturing the growth of creative writing on the forum, not shunning it. That being said, I would gladly offer my services as a co-moderator in so far as helping newer players develop their writing and critique their work.

[Milarqui]

So, my idea for a possible, new MilarNES.

We would start with three turns of Boring Times, because that way I would be sure that we can ACTUALLY reach the Classical Age.

There would be three resources: Population, Money and Research Points.

Population would determine (at least, partially) how much Money you earn in a turn, and also how many people you would be able to recruit for the army.

Money can also be earned by trade (I have yet to determine how to do trade), plunder and other methods.

Research Points would be gained by having people working on that. The amount of RPs gained will depend on the number of people working on it (which won't be able to work on gaining money by trade), projects done, culture and other methods.

Other stats would be:
- Stability: I think it is not required to actually say what this means.
- Living Quality: May or may not be, but it would measure how well your people live.
- Happiness: Could be, but it might be used as a way to attract people. The happier your people are, the bigger the chance of migrants coming and increasing your population. Remember, a stable nation does not mean a happy nation (would you say that North Korea is actually a happy nation?).
- Culture: depending on how much culture you have, it will make research easier, and might also make it easier to attract other people.
- Army/Navy Quality: guess what?

Also, getting a line out of EQandcivfanatic, there would be some basic units that all nations would be able to use, but the good units would be developed by the different nations. How powerful those units are will depend on the Army/Navy Quality (which will determine how many stat points the units will have at maximum) and the Research Points spent. Technologies would determine the maximum points each stat would be able to have.

Army units would have four stats: Melée, Long Distance, Mobility and Discipline
Navy units would have four stats: Power, Mobility, Armour and Transport

Of course, not everything is done. Any ideas you may have in this, I'd love to hear.

[SKILORD]

If you ask me, the real trick to keeping a fresh start (which is what I think you are talking about, although I admit I'm not sure) going is to have a clear and straightforward tech progression. People get stuck in the Stone Age and they get bored, even if you do make it into the classical age here you want to be sure that your players sense a way out of the classical age. So, I'm not sure that BT's are really going to add to the longevity.

It's like growing a rosebush, if you want it to live you are going to have to water it and tend to it there is no cheating that system. But if you want it to grow and reach it's full potential you have to have posts and other stable, well thought out support systems to lead this plant in an upward direction.

I'm not saying you need to force your players in that direction, and of course, you have to be prepared for your players to want to do things in the here and now, this turn, instead of just preparing for the next turn. I'm just saying that straightforward rules for tech advancement are more important than which stats you use.

- Stability: I think it is not required to actually say what this means.
- Living Quality: May or may not be, but it would measure how well your people live.
- Happiness: Could be, but it might be used as a way to attract people. The happier your people are, the bigger the chance of migrants coming and increasing your population.
Remember, a stable nation does not mean a happy nation (would you say that North Korea is actually a happy nation?).

In an NES, would you consider it a stable one? I think all three of these stats are redundant and say the same thing, I think you can at least cut out "quality of life." But I still believe that stats are for the mod, not the players and I don't think that having three different measurements for social stability would help when you could just have one stat and allow the other two to work inside of it. Your social stability is threatened because your people don't have enough food, or because your people aren't happy, instead of giving each a stat of it's own that you have to update for every player every turn.

-

I know I'm a hater, but I'm not trying to hate. I'm just trying to look at your rules and think about them the way that I think about NES rules.

With the RPs it is cool, you have a system for generating research, but what are you researching? Are you just letting everyone decide their own projects? If so, how do you tell when a standardized age has come or pass? Even if you just make it a system where every 5 research projects advances your age that might very well work.

Again, no offense, one love.

[North King]

I've never used hard and fast rules for tech advancement. They tend to make no sense, and having a vague sense of technological progression has never bothered my players -- at least, they never voiced it as a concern.

[SKILORD]

I mean, nobody ever talks about it. It's my theory of the "secret problem" of fresh starts, I mean, something has to be working wrong. Tech progress is what moves a game forwards if you ask me, if it works right nobody notices.

But I've seen many a fresh start circle the drain because no one had a clear idea of "what comes next." Tech is designed to provide that. I'm not saying that you shouldn't allow players to add techs or to do their own thing. I believe that players should have a lot of control over the game, I want open-ended. But the problem I've always seen was "what comes next?"