GR9 - Going for Space

[eldar]

No Al I hadn't started Apollo because I figured it'd be quicker once there was a factory in the city to build it.

[ThERat]

ok, got it...no alu..hmm questionable whether we can get it from somewhere....

[eldar]

Well we can always sit a worker and a unit on a hill and keep going pillage->mine->pillage->mine (see the Cuban Isolationists... "I got another one!") in the hope that some shows up. AFAIK there's a random chance of some appearing under an existing mine anyway.

[ThERat]

Well we can always sit a worker and a unit on a hill and keep going pillage->mine->pillage->mine (see the Cuban Isolationists... "I got another one!") in the hope that some shows up. AFAIK there's a random chance of some appearing under an existing mine anyway.

serious? that sound so cheesy and exploitive, I don't like it at all...something like that needs to be fixed if that's possible just like last time the forest chop -> reforest -> chop etc etc

[Shillen]

That's not possible. You don't get resources the turn the mine is built. You get them over time when you have citizens working the mine tile. It's a very low chance, though.

[ThERat]

save

Pre-Turn
why are we so obsessed with specialists in Madrid, fire some to let it gown in 1
Santiago is sick already and going for a lab, insert an aqueduct first
set Madras to slightly faster growth while Apollo remains at 10 turns
change civic to organized religion for slightly faster build

IT Monte is up for war I guess since he cancels OB and the lux deals ain't good

1. 1864
well, nothing much

2. 1866AD
we get sattelites (why did we go for that), select plastics next
want to build some tanks after some factories are done to discover that we didn't even connect our oil yet
connect one source

3. 1868AD
more infra on the way to AC is done
research won't hamper us, it's the builds
trade WM with a few too many AI's to cause a CTD

4. 1870AD
Barcelona is set on some tanks to be able to fight off Monte, that i suspect to come in time
set Madras on diet so we get Apollo in 5

IT plastics are in, robotics next (space elevator)

5. 1872AD
more infra done

IT now Mansa cancels the resource deal, and we get plenty unhappy

6. 1874AD
renew the deal, change civics back to free religion
and am able to get 2 resources back from Monte

7. 1876AD
wall street is done

8.1878AD
more infra and a 3rd tank

9. 1880AD
quite a few more infra is done, Santiago will be the production powerhouse to go for the expensive parts
robotics is in next turn, we might want to go for the elevator if it makes sense
I stop here to even out turns

Apollo will be ready next turn

[eldar]

Elevator makes sense with no Aluminium. It's just so darned expensive... consider switching off research - we have plenty of parts we can already build - and rushing it.

[Shillen]

1) I explained why there are specialists in Madrid. We need one for a golden age. Besides, it doesn't need the production right now. We have plenty of good production cities right now, and we can switch Madrid back to production instantly when it is needed. Unless you want it to grow, but I see absolutely no reason to grow it out. So we can work coast tiles that generate 2 commerce? Scientists are better than working those tiles. (I loaded the save and see that you are indeed working the coast tiles. I'd fire those citizens and make them specialists right away.)

2)

Santiago is sick already and going for a lab, insert an aqueduct first

Santiago also was working every tile possible and it had 2 food surplus. It could afford another 1 lost food, easily. Although I would have built the aqueduct after the lab for sure since there are no parts to build yet.

3) Why exactly do we need oil and tanks? You do know the AI's can't wage overseas wars if their lives depended on it right and that they're about 10+ techs behind us? Our goal is spaceship win, satellites first will get us there faster, especially with no aluminum to speed along the thrusters. I wouldn't have even done plastics next. I would have done robotics to get the other expensive part that needs aluminum. Then on to fusion after that (which requires plastics). Not a big deal, but just explaining my reasoning for going with satellites.

4) I don't think Monte is going to declare war on us, especially now that we're back in free religion. And if he does I would be absolutely amazed if he managed to capture one of our cities.

Elevator might be worthwhile. If we do go with elevator though then we should forget the golden age and use the fusion engineer to half build it. If this is the way we're going then merge the prophet in one of our cities.

[ThERat]

Why exactly do we need oil and tanks? You do know the AI's can't wage overseas wars if their lives depended on it right and that they're about 10+ techs behind us? Our goal is spaceship win, satellites first will get us there faster, especially with no aluminum to speed along the thrusters. I wouldn't have even done plastics next. I would have done robotics to get the other expensive part that needs aluminum. Then on to fusion after that (which requires plastics). Not a big deal, but just explaining my reasoning for going with satellites.

First of all, sorry for Madrid, not a biggie though, switch back to specialists

Well, we can use some tanks for defense since honestly, those cities I set to build some military had nothing to build anyway, since we do not need those broadway and other stuff.
In order to get robotics, you need plastics, because I also wanted robotics first. Anyway the tech is done next turn

[Shillen]

Ah that's right, plastics is for robotics, not fusion. I definitely agree with building military when there are no parts to build.

[ThERat]

I agree to go for fusion and fission next, this will give us another great Engineer as well...
as for the military, I was just a little concerned about the weak defense we have in the north and we are only ranked 4th in terms of military, always an open invitation for them.
Next turn of course, we need to start building space parts and we can start with 7 of them right away I think.

[Gyathaar]

Mansa Musa will give us aluminium and gpt for uranium.. any reason not to supply him with uranium?

[Shillen]

Well it allows him to build better ships. But we're in pretty good relations with him and overall he's usually peaceful. I would do it. It will shave a lot of turns off of spaceship parts.

[Greebley]

Roster:
Greebley - On Deck
Space Oddity
Eldar
Shillen
ThERat - Just Played
Gyathaar - Up

[ThERat]

Mansa Musa will give us aluminium and gpt for uranium.. any reason not to supply him with uranium?

that must have come up in the last turn since I checked all the time and there was nothing available. I would immediately trade so that the elevator gets to 1/2 cost

[Gyathaar]

I took the aluminium deal.
Fusion will complete in 2 turns.. we got a great artist (and had a great prophet already), so the free engineer should be used for a 3rd golden age.

Even without golden age it will only take 10 turns to research the last remaining techs we need..

I expect the game will be over in 13-14 turns max.

The save

[Greebley]

Since this is the last turn of the game, I thought I would start off with some screen shots and comments on the game.

First off we are way ahead of the AI in tech even though this is a Prince level game. In other games I have played in, this has not been true - even some noble games have struggled. I thought I would give some opinions on why or just points that I feel I have learned.

1) We concentrated more on building cottages and working them. Other games have concentrated on shields and it has been hard to get cottages built and up to town levels. Perhaps the fact that we specifically had a space goal helped here. The lesson for me though is that one needs to build cottages and accept that you are "wasting" a square at the start by building that cottage. Even more military games, I think it easier if you are ahead in tech.
2) I have been thinking about Shillen's point about emphasizing city growth and feel it is a very good one. Short term losses in shields can be made up if you just grow first. This means you do need farms mixed with those cottages. It seems very easy to go for stagnant size and lose out long term.
3) Obviously one cannot entirely ignore shields - they are important. However maximizing shields early on does not seem wise - your cities stagnate in size and fall behind in tech. I think this is true even in a militaristic game. (Rat09 was a game we tended to go too much for shields).
4) Biology is a hugely important tech that should not be ignored. +1 food per farms really allows the city growth to occur.
5) Some games I feel have gone too far toward the "city count doesn't matter" side of things and only settle near resources. I do NOT think this is true. I think wasting grasslands and plains is a bad idea. Cities should be placed so that most good squares are within a city radius. Water squares can be useful too. What one doesn't want is a lot of overlap between cities. Going for resources first and planning to fill the gaps with future towns seems reasonable.
6) Towns with the +2 coin and the +1 production are very powerful in the latter game.
7) Not from this game, but using the culture slider to gain happiness at war time is good. I have been given games with many unhappy people and the culture slider at 0. I like theaters because they are cheap culture and give the additional +1 happiness bonus per 10%.
8) We didn't put a lot of emphasis into religion and still did well. One thing I am unsure about is whether we would have done better or worse had we gone more for religion. I know following religions can be strong, but it does have its costs as well. Building missionaries seems an expensive business. I have not yet decided on this point.
9) Mentioned in this game, but proven to me in another - It is too easy to build the globe theatre for a short term unhappiness problem that you will later regret. One needs to think very long term with the national wonders given the limit of 2 per city.

Shillen, I would also like to mention I found your comments very helpful. You clearly know a lot more about Civ4 than I.

Comments/extentions/counter-points on these are welcome. The game is still very new to me.

In any case here are some pictures. I will go play my turns after posting this and will probably to to finish off the game.

Towns are sorted by Science:



The Capitol:


Three pictures showing our lands.

[Greebley]

We start our GA as suggested. I also use some gold and rush the Space Elevator.

I learned in a recent game to leave the shorter space ship build for last - Great engineers do NOT rush projects which includes the parts, internet, manhattan and SDI I believe. Therefore I want to go for the more expensive part associated with genetics and go for Ecology last.

We get a great engineer that becomes a super specialist in Santiago. It turns out it is good I did. I had forgotten that my GA would end, so my 1922 finish becomes 1924. I had 8 workers near Santiago already - they build workshops.
I scrounge around for 4 more workers that can barely make it to another square to make a final workshop. This ends up finishing off the final piece exactly! This is good because I have no more workers to scrounge.

Our final score is 23442. I will attach the 1920 save so you all can add the game to your high score if you so choose.

[Shillen]

Good game guys. Not bad at all for the first finished SG for civ4 (at least for me anyway).

[Greebley]

It is my first finish as well.