WARNING: AI is damn smart and fooled me... (details inside)

[CivAlby]

From a game I played last night, I've learned the lesson in a hard way...

I played on noble setting and my civ has 6 cities on a small map.

I began my conquest against the Mongolians while keeping peace with other nations. I've successfully conquered two cities from them (pop 2 & 5) due to the success of the army I sent against them. (bunch of axeman with city raiding promo and archers)

As I sent my army deep into enemy territory to pillage gold and destroy their infrastructure, the sneak England declared war on me. (Mongolia is to the SW of my nation, England is on my east). Without further delay, I negotiated peace with the mongols and quickly withdrew my army back into my home territory.

At this time, Isabella (england) sent a few horse chariots in rampage mode to pillage the infrastructure near a few of my major cities. My stacked army was busy chasing down every single one of them to stop them from the rampage.

Isabella moved a few of her chariot towards the western cities that I just conquered from Mongols. As I sent my armies chasing after them, I got the first big surprise of the conflict....

A huge English infantry army appeared out of nowhere in the eastern border city of my nation (one closest to them) and began sieging. I had only two archers defending that city (it has city wall improvement). But the overwhelming force slowing ripped through the defense while my army was still rushing back to save the city. One turn away from reaching the city, the defense was overrun.

I thought to myself, it's ok, I will take it back next turn with my superior army... Guess what... THEY RAZED the city down into ruins...

I was left in shock and had to save and quit the game as I needed sleep...

That was a damn nice move the AI just pulled off me... certainly one I would have expected more from a human than a computer.

Afterthoughts

- AI managed to exhaust my army by sending a few single unit charious rampaging across various areas within my territory

- Just before the siege, they moved the chariots that was visible to me towards the west (made me think they were going after those recently acquired cities that are still weak in defense). Then out of the fog, the real strike comes hitting right on one of the big cities near the eastern border. The AI has successfully fooled me into moving my army towards the west a few turns before they expose the real threat.

- Instead of keeping a town they will probably lose in the next few turns, the razed the large city to make sure I won't be able to reconquer it and will lose all the benefits from it once and for all.

Lots of lessons to be leared from this encounter... And I am damn excited to play against an AI that had me fooled and beat me fair and square.

Bravo to the AI programmers in Firaxis!

Please provide any similar experience or feedbacks if possible so we can share them

[Rameau's Nephew]

Nice! Great to see that the AI has some surprises. I've only played for 7 hours or so, and haven't had any major wars yet.

Nitpick: Isabella is the Spanish leader. If it really was England, the queen was either Elizabeth or Victoria.

[CivAlby]

Originally Posted by Rameau's Nephew

Nice! Great to see that the AI has some surprises. I've only played for 7 hours or so, and haven't had any major wars yet.

Nitpick: Isabella is the Spanish leader. If it really was England, the queen was either Elizabeth or Victoria.

You're indeed correct. It's the spanish, not the english

Thanks for the correction.

Note: You can tell I am suffering from the LOS syndrome (lack of sleep)

[Sailsa]

I will second the opinion that the AI is much improved. In two of my losses thus far, the AI did things which I really didn't expect. The first one was my fault. I had become allies with my neighbor to the north, same religion, lots of trade, had given them a few gifts, etc. The two of us were running away with the game so I guess I was his biggest competition. Anyways, I was invaded by a neighbor to my south and pulled most of my troops from the north to aid in the battle, assuming that my friendly northern neighbor would keep me safe. Instead, they noticed that I was moving my troops out of my cities (we had open borders and they had a unit in my territory), and after I had depleted my defences, they invaded and took all my juicy defenseless northern cities. Thus, even if the AI is friendly, they aren't going to let you be stupid with defense.

Example 2 - they know how to use navies & pillage. Another game, I was waging a war on France to my south and had taken control of the city at a choak point so no French units could get beyond that city. A few turns later several boats arrive on my coast to the north and unload several fast units which proceeded to run arround my territory pillaging improvements,focusing on my horses and iron. This was a huge setback and seriously delayed my campaign as I struggled to save my infrastructure. Also, the AI continued to land more units over time and use boats to position them in spots I could not quickly reach.

[Dire]

It also knows when it has made a very bad move.

My first game, I was Arabian and those pesky Aztecs were being a pain (I plan on crushing them tonight with my new little friend .. the tank).

He would want open borders, then he wanted war, then he wanted peace, then to fight with him against the Indians and then get mad for something else. Just totally screwy.

So he declared war and sent into my lands the big stack (roughly 12-15 units) After a slow advance and my infanty and artillery tearing it apart, I began campaign "CHAOS" on his punk a$$. Sent in close to ten calvary units and start razing all his improvments all over his country. Soon he was going without half his luxuries, iron, coal. Towns were cut off from each other.

In addition my ships were keeping him land locked and blasting anything he put into the water. But at NO TIME did I make even ONE SINGLE attack on one of his cities.

After about 10-15 turns of this he resorted to making a peace proposal PLUS his entire treasurey.

Lesson learned: Jacking with improvements can force your opponenet to peace.

So the AI is smarter. I knows that if that this pillage trend would have continued, its cities are going to be in deep trouble.

1) Would not be able to produce as much
2) Would not be able to support population
3) Would not be able to stand up the cultural preasure being applied by me.

[CivAlby]

One important thing I learned... It's important to station small groups of armies across your territory to prevent AI from going rampant deep inside your territory pillaging everything they see. (best bet would probably be spearman garrisons since they tend to send mounted units to do the pillaging)

Which applies in real life too, and scouting deep inside enemy territory or near borders is equally important to be able to have early warnings of a potential large scale invasion.

I love how the AI is playing out in wars, makes the game a lot more interesting to play.

[CivAlby]

Originally Posted by Dire

It also knows when it has made a very bad move.

My first game, I was Arabian and those pesky Aztecs were being a pain (I plan on crushing them tonight with my new little friend .. the tank).

He would want open borders, then he wanted war, then he wanted peace, then to fight with him against the Indians and then get mad for something else. Just totally screwy.

So he declared war and sent into my lands the big stack (roughly 12-15 units) After a slow advance and my infanty and artillery tearing it apart, I began campaign "CHAOS" on his punk a$$. Sent in close to ten calvary units and start razing all his improvments all over his country. Soon he was going without half his luxuries, iron, coal. Towns were cut off from each other.

In addition my ships were keeping him land locked and blasting anything he put into the water. But at NO TIME did I make even ONE SINGLE attack on one of his cities.

After about 10-15 turns of this he resorted to making a peace proposal PLUS his entire treasurey.

Lesson learned: Jacking with improvements can force your opponenet to peace.

So the AI is smarter. I knows that if that this pillage trend would have continued, its cities are going to be in deep trouble.

1) Would not be able to produce as much
2) Would not be able to support population
3) Would not be able to stand up the cultural preasure being applied by me.

As you mentioned here and what the AI has displayed. Burning/Pillaging is actually a very viable and deadly tactic to use in Civ IV. Razing an enemy town is far more cost effective in wrecking chaos in his territory than trying to take over and defend it. Pillaging his improvements is quick way to make cash AND wreck havoc on his infrastructure. (and force him to come out to attack you outside the city walls)

[k-a-bob]

Originally Posted by CivAlby

As you mentioned here and what the AI has displayed. Burning/Pillaging is actually a very viable and deadly tactic to use in Civ IV. Razing an enemy town is far more cost effective in wrecking chaos in his territory than trying to take over and defend it. Pillaging his improvements is quick way to make cash AND wreck havoc on his infrastructure. (and force him to come out to attack you outside the city walls)

Are you saying that pillaging tiles outside of cities nets you gold as well?

(obviously I do not have the game)

[Ashmantious]

yes it will. I have seen screen shots that show this, I think on IGN

[lordqarlyn]

Pillaging improvements has always been a deadly effective tactic since Civ 1. It became even more effective in Civ 3 when you could deny your opponents strategic resources and luxuries.

Its cool to see the AI smart enough to see the strategic value of such methods. Fortunately I believe in garrisoning my territory, and not just in cities. Having several well placed - and manned - fortresses within my borders saved me more times than I can count in Civ 3. It's nice to know that this strategy will be essential in Civ 4

[CivAlby]

Originally Posted by lordqarlyn

Pillaging improvements has always been a deadly effective tactic since Civ 1. It became even more effective in Civ 3 when you could deny your opponents strategic resources and luxuries.

Its cool to see the AI smart enough to see the strategic value of such methods. Fortunately I believe in garrisoning my territory, and not just in cities. Having several well placed - and manned - fortresses within my borders saved me more times than I can count in Civ 3. It's nice to know that this strategy will be essential in Civ 4

What kind of armies to you usually place in those garrisons? what size?

And yes, garrisons sprinkled across your empire are necessary now. AI is much smarter and would use guerilla warfare to weaken you before they deliver the final blow.

Makes attacking/defending a lot more interesting now. Especially when another nation stabbed your back while you're at war with a third nation.

[Dire]

Originally Posted by lordqarlyn

Pillaging improvements has always been a deadly effective tactic since Civ 1. It became even more effective in Civ 3 when you could deny your opponents strategic resources and luxuries.

Its cool to see the AI smart enough to see the strategic value of such methods. Fortunately I believe in garrisoning my territory, and not just in cities. Having several well placed - and manned - fortresses within my borders saved me more times than I can count in Civ 3. It's nice to know that this strategy will be essential in Civ 4

And an extra fyi to that. I noticed two other things. I was pillaging squares right next to there cities. In some cases they came out an attacked and others they stay bottled up.

Secondly, I did notice though that a few men jumped right onto their Iron resource. So the AI is smart enough also to protect some things and let others go by the wayside.

[lordqarlyn]

Originally Posted by CivAlby

What kind of armies to you usually place in those garrisons? what size?

In Civ 3, it all depended on factors like the tech level of my opponent, their size, the size of my empire. But typically I would have at a minimum one unit of my strongest defender, who would only attack in dire circumstances, otherwise they defend the fort, plus one of my best offensive unit. Of course there was the obligitory artillery units. Many times I would have more, especially if I was on par, but I would try to stack more offensive units.

In Civ 4, its going to have to be a little larger on the defensive side, as different unit types have their specialty to counter different offensive units, and like wise with offensive units, but I will try to limit each garrison to three units plus an artillery, since units can get expensive, and probably one garrison for every 2 -3 cities, depending on how many neighbors I have. Circumstances may alter that.

Keep in mind that I usually don't use these garrisons on any campaign, they exist strictly as a means to counterattack any enemy forces that get in my territory.


"Secondly, I did notice though that a few men jumped right onto their Iron resource. So the AI is smart enough also to protect some things and let others go by the wayside."

Now that's cool! In Civ 3 it was like taking candy from a baby when it came to pillaging resources.

Don

[Taralax]

I had a very similar experience with the AI. In one of my first games, I ended up with the Russians (Catherine) as my neighbour to the west. The continent we were on was quite huge, and there were some very promising ressources to the north, so I concentrated to get their (lightly defended) settlers as soon as possible. During this process I somehow disregarded my army... but I wasn't really worried since I was on good standings with the Russians all the time (they even adopted my religion, so we had an extra bonus fromt that too).

Then a comparision sheet for the strongest nations was published (Russians first, me last), and BAM my good friend Catherine declared war on me in the next round.

What happened? There were several single units coming into my territoy obviously determined to a) cause much havoc by pillaging all over the land and b) cutting my capital from the rest of the land (my capital was in the southeast, in the middle of a huge forest and had only one road connection going out). This road was completely destroyed (where in many other places on farms and mines were destroyed, but roads left intact). When this happened I tried to stop those single units, not paying too much attention to my northern outposts. And a few rounds later, when some intense fighting was going on in the south, a large army showed up in the north and burned both newly founded cities down (and cutting me off from more ressources). The fighting in the south came to a standstill (noone was able to gain any grounds) so a peace offer (by me) was accepted and (since we're sharing the same religion I think), we're the best friends again since then.

Of course now I'm a bit more paranoid with my Russian friends.

[Legal_My_Deagle]

Originally Posted by Taralax

I had a very similar experience with the AI. In one of my first games, I ended up with the Russians (Catherine) as my neighbour to the west. The continent we were on was quite huge, and there were some very promising ressources to the north, so I concentrated to get their (lightly defended) settlers as soon as possible. During this process I somehow disregarded my army... but I wasn't really worried since I was on good standings with the Russians all the time (they even adopted my religion, so we had an extra bonus fromt that too).

Then a comparision sheet for the strongest nations was published (Russians first, me last), and BAM my good friend Catherine declared war on me in the next round.

What happened? There were several single units coming into my territoy obviously determined to a) cause much havoc by pillaging all over the land and b) cutting my capital from the rest of the land (my capital was in the southeast, in the middle of a huge forest and had only one road connection going out). This road was completely destroyed (where in many other places on farms and mines were destroyed, but roads left intact). When this happened I tried to stop those single units, not paying too much attention to my northern outposts. And a few rounds later, when some intense fighting was going on in the south, a large army showed up in the north and burned both newly founded cities down (and cutting me off from more ressources). The fighting in the south came to a standstill (noone was able to gain any grounds) so a peace offer (by me) was accepted and (since we're sharing the same religion I think), we're the best friends again since then.

Of course now I'm a bit more paranoid with my Russian friends.

Heh, if they adopted your religion you are lucky that they didnt take your holy city =O

[Azash]

Originally Posted by CivAlby

You're indeed correct. It's the spanish, not the english

Thanks for the correction.

Note: You can tell I am suffering from the LOS syndrome (lack of sleep)

Also known as the Meier-Firaxis Complex

[Ruffin]

Reading a novelized bit of Roman history (Hadrian's Wall) and it mentions that the Romans may have conquered with the Legion, but they held their empire with cavalry. Killing off marauding charioteers can be very, very distracting. Yesterday my all-of-three-cities-large Malinese enemies held me off for about 20 turns by running those silly chariots across my main road to their turf. I had to use my reinforcements to guard the roads. In the future I think forts on roaded hilltops full of cavalry will be the order of the day.

[Speciou5]

The AI always seems to be very good at finding weak points to attack. In my current game, I was focusing on wonders and ecnomy (playing as FDR). In addition to a strong ancient age start - fish and high yield land at my capital - I was leading the score. Unfortunately, come the classical age I realize I didn't have any iron or copper within my territory. I shrugged and just kept archers for defense. BIG MISTAKE. When I sent my meager defense up north towards my new city with three borders (which had copper), where I thought the fighting would be if there was ever a war, the Mali empire did a surprise attack from the south and actually managed to take my city!

I did manage to take the city back quickly, but I have been at constant war with them now. So far the fighting has been back and forth with no major territory changes, and both of our scores have plumetted to the middle. The AI has been very impressive during the war, so I have to congrats to Firaxis. For example, once when they were marching on my southern cities, they sent one or two horse raiders, pillaged my ivory and thus cut off my ability to produce War Elephants!

I can't wait to get back and face them, I believe the scales have tipped in my favor as I was able to take one city . Now for the second!

[NKVD]

hey thanks I didnt have a real war yet so now I know what the AI is up to!

[Mr. Blonde]

Last game three AIs declared war on me (I was alone on my small continent and aimed for spacerace - I hardly built any military). So 4-5 units per civ landed the first round and started pillaging. My cities dropped into unhealthiness/ unhappiness very quickly. Additionally if a civ is on a citie´s harbour tile you cant´t work any sea tiles. .

Learning from watching this I think pillaging horse units, musketeers or machine gunners (can´t attack but have a nasty defense) trashing the civ´s economy are a must for warfare. I think in my next game I will give warfare a try.