Canada mod - "work thread"

[Wyz_sub10]

Updated Nov 1, 2005

I decided to start a thread where those interested could collectively hash out a Canada mod.

Thanks to Tunch Khan for getting the ball rolling. The info below is an amalgam of input from TheBladeRoden, SuperBeaverInc., Hemiptera, and me.

We can tackle things one by one but here is the "collected" input so far:

Leaders
Because there can be several (as I understand) I've added all identified to date:
- William Lyon Mackenzie King
- Pierre Trudeau
- Sir John A. MacDonald
- Lester B. Pearson

Flag
Two described so far:
- base red flag with a white square in its centre, featuring a red stylized 11-pointed maple leaf. (TheBladeRoden)
- Red maple leaf on white background (SuperBeaverInc., Wyz_sub10)

Unique Unit
- Mountie** (Cavalry w/diplomacy?)
- Voyageur (Explorer/trade)
- Canadian Corps (WWI Infantry)
- JFT2 (modern special ops military) new

** Yes, it wasn't a military unit. But not every Civ unit needs to be. That's why we're having this discussion. It isn't my first choice, but it's a very recognizably Canadian unit and some have suggested it.

Avro Arrow and Peackeeper removed

Cities
A big list here, but we all seem to agree on:
Updated - list is based on other users + size, capitals, regional representation

Ottawa
Toronto
Montréal
Vancouver
Edmonton
Calgary
Québec
Winnipeg
Halifax
Victoria
Regina
Hamilton
St. John's
Saskatoon
Mississauga
Fredericton
Windsor
Saint John
Laval
Kitchener
St. Catharines
Oshawa
Kelowna
Sherbrooke
Charlottetown
Sudbury
Moncton
Kingston
Trois-Rivières
Sydney
Whitehorse
Yellowknife
Iqaluit
Thunder Bay
Sault Ste. Marie
Saguenay
Brandon
Red Deer
Richmond
Barrie
Abbotsford
Guelph
Chatham
Peterborough
Sarnia
Belleville
Kamloops
Brantford
Nanaimo
Prince George
Kawarthas
Drummondville
Lethbridge
North Bay
Medicine Hat

London is left off due to England. I have used London, Ont in the past, but looks a bit dumb on the map.

It seems as though great leaders won't be civ-specific, so we needn't worry too much about them at this time. My list comes from Wikipedia and some other sources, including the input of my colleagues above.

Some recurring names, if Canada wants to add a few to the pool, are:

Frederick Banting (scientist), Roy Thompson (merchant), Tom Thomson (artist) and Sir Sanford Fleming (engineer).

Here's my full list for reference sake:
Scientists:
Frederick Banting (NP medicine); Gerhard Herzberg (NP chemistry); John Polanyi (NP chemistry); Michael Smith (NP chemistry); Sid Altman (NP chemistry); Abraham Gesner (kerosene); Roberta Bondar (astronaut); Sir William Osler (physician)

Merchant:
Louis B. Mayer (movies); W.C. Van Horne (railway); Roy Thompson (media); Galen Weston (grocery); K.C. Irving (oil); Joseph-Armand Bombardier (airplanes/snowmobile); Timothy Eaton (dept stores)

Prophet:
St. Marguerite Bourgeoys; Saint Marguerite d'Youville; Blessed Brother André; Kateri Tekakwitha; Marshall McLuhan (theorist); Charles Taylor (humanist philosopher); Norman Bethune (humanitarian)

Artists:
Emily Carr (painter); Tom Thomson (painter); Yousef Karsh (photographer); Charles Daudelain (sculptor); Maragret Atwood (author); Robertson Davies (author); Glenn Gould (composer); Karen Kain (dancer)

Engineers:
Frank Gehry (architect); Ernest Cormier (engineer); Joseph-Armand Bombardier (engineer/inventor); Moshie Safdie (architect); Sir Sanford Fleming (standard time); Sir William Logan (geologist); Elsie McGill (engineer)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe we can start by agreeing on a short-list of 5 leaders, then maybe a capital and first 10 cities?

[Sputty]

The Peacekeeper unit is almost offensive. The Canadian military is a military, not a peacekeeping force and they have no bearing on actual training or preparation. The Avro Arrow was never adopted(and has been glorified substantially), Mounties never acted as military units. You're missing Kingston, which acted as Canada's capital until Ottawa and was basically the centre of upper Canada for a long time. Then again, Canada isn't exactly necessary, England/the British Empire really is the only way to effectively display Canada while maintaining accuracy. The U.S. gets in Civ because it's the current superpower and did a lot since it became a superpower, no other modern countries are civs and Canada's contribution hasn't been as an independent civilization or spanning society, but as a nation. That's not what you're asking for, but whatever.

Edit: A good unique unit would be a replacement for standard infantry, where infantry basically defined Canadian military power in WWI and WWII, especially WWI where Canada's(and Australia's) contributions basically set out for the Statute of Westminster and more colonial independence. Perhaps +10% versus artillery and 2 more attack.

[CrazyMrLeo]

A Peacekeeper seems an odd choice for a military unit, as does the ever-flavourful Mountie. I'd suggest the Voyageur instead. Perhaps something to do with a movement bonus through forests or a trade route bonus?

As for the leader, Lester B. would be my personal favourite, with Sir John A. running a close second.

I'd also like to point out that the city list is notably missing Kingston, Kitchener, Whitehorse, Yellowknife, St. Catharines and Kelowna

[Wyz_sub10]

Originally Posted by Sputty

The Peacekeeper unit is almost offensive. The Canadian military is a military, not a peacekeeping force and they have no bearing on actual training or preparation. The Avro Arrow was never adopted(and has been glorified substantially), Mounties never acted as military units.

Peacekeeper and Avro were simply from another mod that I added to the list. Mountie is not a military unit, yes, but it's such a recognizable figure. I had Canadian Corps in my Civ3 mod, but I just want to be sure we get some input here.

You're missing Kingston, which acted as Canada's capital until Ottawa and was basically the centre of upper Canada for a long time.

Yes, but I noted specifically that the list was simply a top list that reflected what others had contributed. You only need 10-15 for Civ4 and Kingston wouldn't likely make that list. But I agree on the historical significance.

Then again, Canada isn't exactly necessary, England/the British Empire really is the only way to effectively display Canada while maintaining accuracy. The U.S. gets in Civ because it's the current superpower and did a lot since it became a superpower, no other modern countries are civs and Canada's contribution hasn't been as an independent civilization or spanning society, but as a nation. That's not what you're asking for, but whatever.

No, it isn't. Besides, it's futile to try and debate what is or isn't a "civilization". And you know what? It's irrelevant in any case. It's a game and people want to see their own cultures added in.

Edit: A good unique unit would be a replacement for standard infantry, where infantry basically defined Canadian military power in WWI and WWII, especially WWI where Canada's(and Australia's) contributions basically set out for the Statute of Westminster and more colonial independence. Perhaps +10% versus artillery and 2 more attack.

Good suggestion! I like your stat ideas. As you'll note, I have Canadian Corps as a possibility - WWI infantry.

[Wyz_sub10]

Originally Posted by CrazyMrLeo

A Peacekeeper seems an odd choice for a military unit, as does the ever-flavourful Mountie. I'd suggest the Voyageur instead. Perhaps something to do with a movement bonus through forests or a trade route bonus?

Cool. I had a mod with the Voyageur as a UU - it had better movement and could settle. In a historical context, maybe it could move better through woodland and improve commerce, just as you suggest.

As for the leader, Lester B. would be my personal favourite, with Sir John A. running a close second.

Noted, thanks.

I'd also like to point out that the city list is notably missing Kingston, Kitchener, Whitehorse, Yellowknife, St. Catharines and Kelowna

As I said, it's a purposely short list because I wanted to start with cities that most would agree on - let's start with 10 or so and then see what to add. If you look at my original post from the "missing civs" thread you'll see my list includes all you've mentioned, plus several more.

But we should agree on the basics first.

[SuperBeaverInc.]

Originally Posted by Wyz_sub10

Leaders
Because there can be several (as I understand) I've added all identified to date:
- William Lyon Mackenzie King
- Pierre Trudeau
- Sir John A. MacDonald
- Lester B. Pearson

All good choices.

Originally Posted by Wyz_sub10

Flag
Two described so far:
- base red flag with a white square in its centre, featuring a red stylized 11-pointed maple leaf. (TheBladeRoden)
- Red maple leaf on white background (SuperBeaverInc., Wyz_sub10)

If you tried to fit the actual Canada flag in(e.g. the first one), it would be quite crowded.

Originally Posted by Wyz_sub10

Unique Unit
- Mountie
- Voyageur
- Canada Corps
- Avro Arrow (from a Civ3 mod)
- Peacekeeper / Blue Casque (from a Civ2 or 3 mod)

Mounties are more police. Voyageur were French colonial explorers/traders, and altough they did some fighting, they didn't do alot. Canada Corps, or alternatively, CEF Infantry would be my pick. Avro Arrow...absolutely not. They only built what, 6? And Peacekeeper isn't really what I would classify as UU worthy.

Originally Posted by Wyz_sub10

Cities
A big list here, but we all seem to agree on:

- Ottawa (capital)
- Toronto
- Montreal
- Vancouver
- Edmonton
- Calgary
- Winnipeg
- Quebec City
- Halifax
- Regina
- Hamilton
- Victoria
- St. John's
- Mississauga
- Sakatoon
- Saint John
- Sault Ste Marie (ok, not in everyone's top, but still pushing for my ol' hometown )

I think you should use my 50 city long list I posted in the Missing Civs thread. (it even has Sault Ste Marie ) It is the 50 largest cities in Canada, by metropolitan area.

[BrentRitchie]

Originally Posted by Wyz_sub10

I decided to start a thread where those interested could collectively hash out a Canada mod.

Thanks to Tunch Khan for getting the ball rolling. The info below is an amalgam of input from TheBladeRoden, SuperBeaverInc., Hemiptera, and me.

We can tackle things one by one but here is the "collected" input so far:

Leaders
Because there can be several (as I understand) I've added all identified to date:
- William Lyon Mackenzie King
- Pierre Trudeau
- Sir John A. MacDonald
- Lester B. Pearson

Flag
Two described so far:
- base red flag with a white square in its centre, featuring a red stylized 11-pointed maple leaf. (TheBladeRoden)
- Red maple leaf on white background (SuperBeaverInc., Wyz_sub10)

Unique Unit
- Mountie
- Voyageur
- Canada Corps
- Avro Arrow (from a Civ3 mod)
- Peacekeeper / Blue Casque (from a Civ2 or 3 mod)

Cities
A big list here, but we all seem to agree on:

- Ottawa (capital)
- Toronto
- Montreal
- Vancouver
- Edmonton
- Calgary
- Winnipeg
- Quebec City
- Halifax
- Regina
- Hamilton
- Victoria
- St. John's
- Mississauga
- Sakatoon
- Saint John
- Sault Ste Marie (ok, not in everyone's top, but still pushing for my ol' hometown )

It seems as though great leaders won't be civ-specific, so we needn't worry too much about them at this time. My list comes from Wikipedia and some other sources, including the input of my colleagues above.

Some recurring names, if Canada wants to add a few to the pool, are:

Frederick Banting (scientist), Roy Thompson (merchant), Tom Thomson (artist) and Sir Sanford Fleming (engineer).

Here's my full list for reference sake:
Scientists:
Frederick Banting (NP medicine); Gerhard Herzberg (NP chemistry); John Polanyi (NP chemistry); Michael Smith (NP chemistry); Sid Altman (NP chemistry); Abraham Gesner (kerosene); Roberta Bondar (astronaut); Sir William Osler (physician)

Merchant:
Louis B. Mayer (movies); W.C. Van Horne (railway); Roy Thompson (media); Galen Weston (grocery); K.C. Irving (oil); Joseph-Armand Bombardier (airplanes/snowmobile); Timothy Eaton (dept stores)

Prophet:
St. Marguerite Bourgeoys; Saint Marguerite d'Youville; Blessed Brother André; Kateri Tekakwitha; Marshall McLuhan (theorist); Charles Taylor (humanist philosopher); Norman Bethune (humanitarian)

Artists:
Emily Carr (painter); Tom Thomson (painter); Yousef Karsh (photographer); Charles Daudelain (sculptor); Maragret Atwood (author); Robertson Davies (author); Glenn Gould (composer); Karen Kain (dancer)

Engineers:
Frank Gehry (architect); Ernest Cormier (engineer); Joseph-Armand Bombardier (engineer/inventor); Moshie Safdie (architect); Sir Sanford Fleming (standard time); Sir William Logan (geologist); Elsie McGill (engineer)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe we can start by agreeing on a short-list of 5 leaders, then maybe a capital and first 10 cities?

Leaders
Because there can be several (as I understand) I've added all identified to date:
- William Lyon Mackenzie King
- Pierre Trudeau
- Sir John A. MacDonald
- Lester B. Pearson

What no Brian Mulroney or Bob Rae?

No seriously though I have to vote for Sir. John A. Macdonald and Pierre Trudeau. Also I vote for the Canadian Corps. as a UU.

I have an idea though, I think a War of 1812 mod would be great. It could start when the british are warned of the massing American army. That would be fun to play.

[Armed_Maniac]

Yes, but I noted specifically that the list was simply a top list that reflected what others had contributed. You only need 10-15 for Civ4 and Kingston wouldn't likely make that list. But I agree on the historical significance.


Quote:
Then again, Canada isn't exactly necessary, England/the British Empire really is the only way to effectively display Canada while maintaining accuracy. The U.S. gets in Civ because it's the current superpower and did a lot since it became a superpower, no other modern countries are civs and Canada's contribution hasn't been as an independent civilization or spanning society, but as a nation. That's not what you're asking for, but whatever.


No, it isn't. Besides, it's futile to try and debate what is or isn't a "civilization". And you know what? It's irrelevant in any case. It's a game and people want to see their own cultures added in.

I soo agree with you on that. It's just annoying when people say 'Oh, this is not a real civ, we'd be better with this'... Sure, you can NOT care about a country being into civ or not, and if you want a certain other civ instead, ya can do it. That doesn't mean the other guy shouldn't make his country as a civ.

I don't know about you, but i prefer playing with my country than playing with some european civ... Since most of the civs are european... atleast, eurasian...

[Python]

My votes go towards:

-Canadian Corps
-Lester B. Pearson/Pierre Trudeau

I think the current city list is good for now and would love to see a War of 1812 mod at some point.

[69king]

Originally Posted by Wyz_sub10

Leaders
Because there can be several (as I understand) I've added all identified to date:
- William Lyon Mackenzie King
- Pierre Trudeau
- Sir John A. MacDonald
- Lester B. Pearson

WHAT!?? No Chretien? or Mulroney??

[New World Order]

I Know the daughter of a Canadian Forces Colonel who's Dad served in Vietnam to obtain the honor of having U.S citizenship, and is now is a Colonel in the Canadian military.

For what it's worth, he also voted in the last U.S. election but we're pretty sure that he didn't vote for Mr. W.

Point is, most of what Canada's military does is 'classified', so they baically pay the media to publish lies: 'Oh, I'd better go sign-up today! We've got no more troops!.' 'Oh, Canada's military needs more funding from the federal Gov't', and NOW!.' 'Oh, Canada has no Air Force, no Navy. Nothing!.' 'Oh, those rusty-old subs we bought from England serve no purpose at all, who needs subs?.' 'The Avro Arrow project 'really did' get 'abandoned': SEE?.' 'Oh, Canada will never join the U.S. on missile defense, In fact missile defense no longer exists in Canada.' 'Oh, Canada is such a peaceful nation, we don't possess a single nuke, not even one.'

Get the picture yet?
Justice Gomery is just the tip of the iceburg here folks.

Anyhow, I noticed there was no John Diefenbacker on the list of leaders.

[Greek Plunder]

You need to add at a minimum, the capitals of all the provinces to that city list. This means Charlottetown, the birthplace of the confederation.

Also, my vote goes for either a Peace Corps. UU that is excellent on defence, or an earlier unit. Although, it would be nice for two nations to have a UU in the modern age each (U.S. and Canada).

[Wyz_sub10]

I've updated the opening post to re-jig the city list a bit. I've also tweaked the UU options.

We should chat a bit about the leaders' traits. I think the short list stands as noted in the OP. Unless there are big pushes for Dieffenbaker or Chretien or the like, maybe we should agree on those 4 for now...?

[deKoven]

>Unique Unit
>- Mountie** (Calvary w/diplomacy?)

Canada has no calvary units. They might well have cavalry units. You might think it niggling but after seeing the same sort of thing in games which have been released on an unsuspecting public I'm on a crusade.

[Wyz_sub10]

Originally Posted by deKoven

Canada has no calvary units. They might well have cavalry units. You might think it niggling but after seeing the same sort of thing in games which have been released on an unsuspecting public I'm on a crusade.

Hehehehe.

Yup, cavalry it is! I don't even want to know what a calvary unit would look like.

[Greek Plunder]

I was also thinking for a UU, you could also consider JTF-2, although America already has a modern, special forces unit.

OR! How about making Canada the first and only civilization to have an AIR UU? The C/F-18!

I also have to say, that Trudeau HAS to be on the Leader list. The others are kind of argueable between them, but Pierre has to be there.

[Darkslayer]

I'm not into programing but I can contribute with city names. Here are some URLs for Canadian cities.

List of the 100 largest cities in Canada by population

List of the 100 largest metropolitan areas in Canada

List of all cities in Canada by province

[Darkslayer]

Originally Posted by deKoven

>Unique Unit
>- Mountie** (Calvary w/diplomacy?)

Canada has no calvary units. They might well have cavalry units. You might think it niggling but after seeing the same sort of thing in games which have been released on an unsuspecting public I'm on a crusade.

Actually, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is Canada's Cavalry.

The RCMP in wartime
The Boer War
During the Boer War, members of the North West Mounted Police were given leaves of absence to fight with the 2nd Battalion, Canadian Mounted Rifles and the Lord Strathcona's Horse.

World War I
During the First World War the Royal North West Mounted Police (RNWMP) conducted border patrols, surveillance of enemy aliens, and enforcement of national security regulations within Canada. However, RNWMP officers also served overseas. On 6 August 1914, a squadron of volunteers from the RNWMP was formed to serve with the Canadian Light Horse in France. In 1918, two more squadrons were raised, A Squadron for service in France and Flanders and B Squadron for service in Siberia

World War II
In 1939, No. 1 Provost Company (RCMP), Canadian Provost Corps, was raised for service in Europe. The unit served with distinction throughout the Second World War.

Source-Royal Canadian Mounted Police

[Wyz_sub10]

If there are no additional comments at this point, I'm going to take a stab at a basic mod this weekend. (no new graphics)

[SuperBeaverInc.]

Which leader/UU are you planning on using?