Which religion should I add?

[abbamouse]

I've decided to eliminate Confucianism as a separate religion, since it's more of a philosophy that exists side-by-side with religions like Taoism, Buddhism, and Christianity. I like the idea of seven religions, so which one should I add? I am not going to add some generic category with no defined set of beliefs (i.e. "animism" or "shamanism" which are roughly as vague as saying "monotheism" or "polytheism"). So which one of these should I add?

If you want to suggest something not on the list, that's OK too. I haven't devoted a lot of thought to syncretic religions like Santeria, Voudoux, Sikhism, etc even though they are clearly religions in their own right. If one of these strikes your fancy then by all means post it.

[niffweed17]

i know you may already be working on this, but one thing i'd love to see is if you discovered some technology, and one out of 20 or so faiths (potentially including all of these) was picked randomly to be your religion. that way i don't have to listen to the hindu song all the time...

[Leonel]

Try looking at this webpage http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html that has a good list of religions listed from biggest to smallest. I posted this somewhere else on this forum but I figure I post it again as a good list of other world religions.

But personally I think you should put in something to represent Atheism as according to that link, Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist's are third in the most populous belief system. Perhaps have it come around with Scientific Method or Liberalism? I'm sure there are some atheists (haha "some" ) on these forums that could give you an approximate date that atheism came around and it'd be probably a matter of matching atheism with the tech that was being researched in the time that atheism began to be a big movement.

[Crossbowman]

In history, there were more than one christian faction. You could split the church.

[SoCalian]

or not and put in zorastrianism, seeing as how it was a nice big religion at one time.

[ScaryMonkey]

Greek and Roman polytheism were essentially the same religion, the pantheon just had Latin names in Rome. I definitely think this should be included, it was a major religion in the ancient world, and in game terms would fit nicely with two civs, rather than just one (Hinduism?) or NONE AT ALL (Judaism?)

(Before I start a flame war, I don't mean to imply these are not important religions, just that none of the included civs ever had Judaism as their state or even majority faith.)

[An Nord Draoi]

Originally Posted by ScaryMonkey

Greek and Roman polytheism were essentially the same religion, the pantheon just had Latin names in Rome.

I am trying to think of a polite alternative to "this is the most asinine statement I have read in months", but I cannot think of one.

In case that is not very plain: pan-Hellenic and pan-Italic religious ideas were not the same. Not even close. Not even when they were contemporaries. Which form of Greek polytheism were you thinking of? Cretan? Mycenaen? That which was current during the Peloponnesian War? How about Italic polytheism? There were Etruscans, Samnites, Latins, and a few hundred other groups even if one only looks at the time period of 500 BCE until 400 CE.

What you *might* be thinking of is the tendency for classical authors to posit possible 'equivalents' between two deities when a new one is found. Modern scholars in Indo-European studies do much the same thing.

-An Nord Draoi

[wilcoxchar]

I would suggest either splitting Christianity into Catholic and Orthodox or splitting Islam into Sunni and Shiite.

[Master Kodama]

Originally Posted by abbamouse

Confucianism [is] more of a philosophy that exists side-by-side with religions like Taoism, Buddhism, and Christianity.

People on the forums keep saying this, and it bugs me because I think they're largely operating under false assumptions and misunderstandings. While Confucianism is generally not considered a religion, it has functioned historically (and on many other levels) in a way which makes it VERY appropriate to include it in Civ.

To give one example, during the Choson period in Korea (1392-1910), a very strict adherence to Neo-Confucianist doctrine was adopted and propagated throughout the country, creating what in civ game terms was essentially a Confucian Theocracy. During the preceding Koryo period, Buddhism had been held in high regard, on equal footing with Confucianism, one dominating the realm of the spiritual/supernatural and the other dominating the secular/everyday world. However, during the Choson era of Neo-Confucian ascendency, Buddhism and its teachings were ridiculed and attacked by the establishment, with the Confucian principles and practices being held up as the one true and essential doctrine. Though it was an age of great cultural and societal achievement, it was not a very tolerant one. Choson Korea as a nation refused to talk or deal with any other countries besides China, and no foreigners were allowed into the country, nor did anyone go outside of the country -- the rest of the world, filled with heathens, just wasn't Confucian enough to merit dealing with. In addition to the attacks on Buddhism, Koreans who converted to Christianity during this period were also subject to harsh persecution for their deviance from the state philosphy.

So much for existing side-by-side. Have you ever heard of a Buddhist regime that was that extreme? Or for that matter, a TAOIST one? How many times has a strict, intolerant Buddhist or Taoist theocracy dominated a nation in such a fashion? I'm pretty sure I can count the number on the fingers of one elbow. Not that I would recommend removing either Taoism or Buddhism, but think about what religions are in Civ4 and what they represent.

[Loppan Torkel]

Norse Polytheism

[An Nord Draoi]

Originally Posted by Loppan Torkel

Norse Polytheism

I second that proposal.

Someone fetch Hrafnkell. He would love this topic.

-An Nord Draoi

[Der Sensenmann]

Jedi.

More seriously, Celtic paganism's a potential. Or Jainism

[Exel]

Why not add a generic polytheism religion representing all of the various ancient beliefs? Figuring a cool name and a logo for it might be problematic though.

[An Nord Draoi]

Originally Posted by Der Sensenmann

Jedi.

Now *that* is a good idea. Perverse... but good.

Originally Posted by Der Sensenmann

More seriously, Celtic paganism's a potential. Or Jainism

Jainism would be a mite bit difficult to translate into Civ, but that is just an opinion. No other objection, really. Seeing them get a place in the game would be interesting if nothing else. Wonder how that would work with waging war, though?

As for Celtic polytheism... it is doable, but Scandinavian polytheism is in a better position by virtue of having 100x more usable sources compared to their Celtic cousins. In sum: the Scandies would be easier to make into a realistic faith within Civ IV.

On the other paw, it would be rather fun to recreate Vercingetorix versus the Roman Empire in a scenario. Creatimg a Celtic polytheism mod might be worth the trouble. At least for the historical sieges...

-An Nord Draoi

[An Nord Draoi]

Originally Posted by Exel

Why not add a generic polytheism religion representing all of the various ancient beliefs?

Because it would not work. Polytheism is a descriptive term that is not usable in the same way that one can refer to, say, Christianity or Islam, and then divvy it up into sects under common headings, all related by fundamental beliefs. You can do that on a limited basis within particular culture groups, but not as a general and generic 'faith'.

For example, anyone who is a Christian would, by definition, believe in something that has to do with Jesus Christ. Compare that to, say, Scandinavian polytheism (Poetic Edda and skaldic poetry being the primary sources there) and Finnish polytheism (mostly attested from the Kalevala). The latter two have a few areas where they influenced each other, but they are as distinct as if one were comparing Christianity and Taoism.

Originally Posted by Exel

Figuring a cool name and a logo for it might be problematic though.

Yes, but the discussion would be priceless...

-An Nord Draoi

[Ranbir]

Add in Sikhism because it is a 'major world religion'. Doesn't really matter about how familiar someone is with it. It's a major world religion it's considered as such, so it should be in the big choices of religion in this game.

[Mythrl]

Voodoo!!

[Hrafnkell]

Lafayette, I am here.

@ Leonel
Re atheism, could believing in nothing be considered a "belief system"? Religions are manifestations of belief in something; atheism would be nothing mroe than its absence and thus most properly represented by being absent from the game.

@ An Nord Draoi
Kinsman! It's a small world. As for a new religion, Norse polytheism definitely.
With regards to Roman and Greek belief systems, I agree also. Add to the complexity of the issue (and fleeing comparitive religious studies like a striped assed ape) the evolution of Mediterranean paganism towards Eastern mystery religions, a process that began in the Hellenistic Era and which continued to evolve and spread up to Mithras' dominance in the 3d Century CE, not to mention the last Neoplatonic flowering of ancient intellectual paganism, which was arguably monotheistic vs Christianity's inherent polytheism (the trinity).

With religion, the designers dropped the ball again, frankly. They came up with a great concept and then, as they did with cultural groups in Civ III, limited it, and thus reduced its usefulness.

[Exel]

Originally Posted by An Nord Draoi

Because it would not work. Polytheism is a descriptive term that is not usable in the same way that one can refer to, say, Christianity or Islam, and then divvy it up into sects under common headings, all related by fundamental beliefs. You can do that on a limited basis within particular culture groups, but not as a general and generic 'faith'.

For example, anyone who is a Christian would, by definition, believe in something that has to do with Jesus Christ. Compare that to, say, Scandinavian polytheism (Poetic Edda and skaldic poetry being the primary sources there) and Finnish polytheism (mostly attested from the Kalevala). The latter two have a few areas where they influenced each other, but they are as distinct as if one were comparing Christianity and Taoism.

But in Civ4 a religion doesn't have to represent one particular religion, but it could be used to represent an entire religion group or type of belief system. Why should the The Great PolyGodiNess adopted by Egypt necessarily be the exact same as the one worshipped by the Romans, even if it shares the same name in the game? Civ4 religions don't have named gods, rituals, holy people or specific buildings, so the same religion can well be used to describe various religions of the same type.

After all, the game doesn't include the various different types of Christianity either.

[Herandar IV]

Originally Posted by Hrafnkell

With religion, the designers dropped the ball again, frankly. They came up with a great concept and then, as they did with cultural groups in Civ III, limited it, and thus reduced its usefulness.

While I think that the religions are a good addition, they are too generic in actual effect. I think each religion should provide at least one unique benefit or unit (e.g. Confucianism provides additional research, Judaism adds trade route, Christianity supplies Crusader, Islam allows Assassins.) That would give you a reason to switch from one to another, besides the number of cities in your Civ that have a religion, or diplomatic relations.

I understand why Firaxis watered down the religions, though. No one wants a fatwa on their heads.