Trouble Keeping up with tech on noble

[Hellsing]

Here is a game I just played which is a typical game for me.

Map size small

Game speed normal

Time vic and space race vic is not allowed, tech trading is not allowed, everything else is on default.

I was Rome

Enemies were:
- Japan
- Aztec
- Egypt
- Greece
- Malinese empire
- China
- Arabia

*Note I usually play with fewer enemies on small maps, but the fact that there were more enemies didn’t change the fact that I had trouble keeping up with tech.

1. First I build a worker which I put to automated. I tech to Hinduism (If I would get prophet early on I would have built the Hindu special building but I didn’t get prophet).

2. I build warrior

3. I build settler and expand. I tech wheel (if I didn’t already have it, don’t remember), then I tech bronze working.

4. In second city I build warrior/worker, in first I build Stonehenge. I tech to priesthood so I can build oracle.

5. I chop down trees to speed up oracle. When oracle is complete I pick the highest tech available. Then I continue teching, I just pick whatever the game recommends (I usually pick tech that takes the shortest time to research). I build another city.

6. I convert to Christianity and build the church of nativity, I build some random wonders (think it was pantheon, Sistine chapel, maybe some more). I spread missionaries so I get some income. I build libraries, barracks and temples in all cities.

7. Greece declares war but all he does is level up my military units, then Japan declares war on me, so my units level up some more. I think I lost a total of 2 praetorians (roman swordsmen) during these wars, they pillaged perhaps 6-10 tiles.

8. I’m the first to discover liberalism so I should be ahead in tech, even more so now since I get a free tech. After liberalism I try to be first to tech economics (free great person), in some games I’m first, in others I’m not, this time I was not. 1 Chinese city culturally converts to me. I build universities, theatres and forges in most cities.

9. Japan declares war on me again, I get pissed and wipes him out, using all my high level praetorians and some mace men/elephants/crossbowmen. Now I get 5 additional cities which means I have a total of 9 cities, this hurts my income really bad (loose as much as -50 per turn), so I build banks in all cities, markets and groceries in some.

10. I tech on, aiming for communism so I can get state property which boosts income a lot! After communism I aim for railroad. I continue building wonders (mostly national wonders now)

11. Aztec declares war on me, they send in a decent army with knights and riflemen, they loose a lot of units but manage to take 1 city. I turn to china that is my best friend and asks him to declare war on Aztec, he agrees and sends in infantry/tanks/marines/artillery

WTF, how the hell can China be so far ahead in tech???????

Looking around at the other nations, it seems like most nations are ahead in tech, but definitely not as far as China. No one has started building railroad except china, but everyone have started producing infantry except me, Aztec and Greece (I’m 2 turns from completing assembly lines btw so I could start very soon).

I HAD 100 % RESEARCH DURING THE ENTIRE GAME, I never dropped below 100 except when it was 1 turn left on some tech and I could drop below without loosing time.

I have 2400 points, Mailines has 2300, China has 2250.

I control 19 % of the population, Malinese control 16 %
I control 28 % land area, Malines control 16 %

During peacetime I try to have Representation, Free speech, Emancipation, State property and Free religion
During wartime/when I build armies I try to have Police state, Vassalage, Emancipation, State property and Theocracy.

Btw China participated in every war that I participated in except the second vs Japan (maybe he was in some other wars also I don’t remember).


What I basically want to know is what improvements can I make to be as fast as China

[warpstorm]

How much base commerce were you getting? 100% of very little is very little. It sounds like this may have been part of your problem since you said you had to go to State Property to relieve some cash flow problems.

BTW, dropping your tech down when you are close to finishing isn't as recommended as in Civ3 as the excess carries over to your next tech.

[Hellsing]

Originally Posted by warpstorm

How much base commerce were you getting? 100% of very little is very little. It sounds like this may have been part of your problem since you said you had to go to State Property to relieve some cash flow problems.

BTW, dropping your tech down when you are close to finishing isn't as recommended as in Civ3 as the excess carries over to your next tech.

I'm not exactly sure what commerce is but if i press f2 is get a screen that says

- Research 100% 340
- Culture 0% 264
- Gold 0% 65

How can I get better commerce?

If I dont use state property I can only have 90 % research. Dunno if some other Economy might be better cuz i dont undestand what they do except that they give less money then state

[Dragonlor]

I hope you waited until your city grew until at least a 3 before you built the worker. Also, never automate the workers. You'll learn more by doing it yourself and will eventually start working the land better than how the AI wants you to work it. Make sure you get Pottery early so that you can build a bunch of cottages.

[warpstorm]

Commerce is the base income that is coming into your empire. It is divided into gold, culture, and research.

To increase commerce open your borders, build cottages (this is probably the easiest), work tiles with the gold coin icon, build harbors, found religions, build courthouses (to lower maintenance), build a Forbidden Palace, build airports (or anything that says increases Trade Routes).

[Hellsing]

Does banks, markets and groceries increase commerce? Or is that something else..

[Harry_P]

K, a couple of things to say here:

First, thing is that leaving the research slider at 100% really means nothing in terms of how much research you're civilization will be doing. Two civs with their sliders at 100% can be, and usually are, researching at very different rates. A 100% research slider means that 100% of commerce (ie. the tiles that your citizens are working which have coins on them for one example) is going to research. As another poster said, 100% of a very small mount of commerce = a very small amount of research. The science research that you liste (340) in the F2 screen is what you should be looking at when you want to find out how much research you're capable of doing.

Second, boosting your commerce will obviously boost your research. Building cottages instead of farms, founding citiies on the coast so you can work those coastal tiles which give 2 commerce, founding cities on rivers to take advantage of the increased commerce on tiles attached to the river, these are all ways to improve the commerce you get from tiles. From there it's all about building the right types of buildings in the right city. Having a city focusing on commerce and then another city which is more of a production city is a popular choice for people.

Third, aside from boosting your commerce you can also boost your research in you cities as well. There are obvious choices here like libraries, universities etc. and there are also specialists which can be used to generate research as well in your high food cities.

As an example, I played a One City Challenge game a little while ago on Noble and my one city was making over 1300 science by the time I got to Liberalism, and it wasn't even a particularly great science city. Obviously that's with wonders and extreme micromanagement of the city, but I'm sure you can see that 340 from 9 cities is a little low.

Fourth, I noticed that you said that you were just randomly building wonders, this is generally not a good idea. Having a wonder just for the sake of building it takes production away from other buildings in your city that could be benefitting you more. Wonders are great in Civ 4 because they can be used to significantly boost particular aspects of the game, but just building them because they are there means you're probably not getting the full benefit from them and at the same time you're probably missing out on other more important buildings for your city.

My suggestion would be to try a One City Challenge on Warlord, spend some time really learning how to improve your city and then take that and apply it to your empire in the next game. Nine cities which are just slapped together can be a penalty to you, but nine cities which are well managed and specialized can be enormously powerful. This is the new civ, rather than just dropping down a city and immediately making a profit, you have to focus on what you're building in each city to make it a productive member of your empire.

[warpstorm]

Originally Posted by Hellsing

Does banks, markets and groceries increase commerce? Or is that something else..

I think they only increase the amount of commerce allocated to gold.

BTW, excellent post, Harry_P

[weasel77066]

Originally Posted by Hellsing

Does banks, markets and groceries increase commerce? Or is that something else..

Banks increase commerce by 50% I think. Markets, grocerys, supermarkets, etc. increase commerce by 25%, but they also give extras happies for certain luxuries (if you have them)

[Hellsing]

Thx for replies guys, very helpful

[DaveMcW]

Originally Posted by Hellsing

I never dropped below 100 except when it was 1 turn left on some tech and I could drop below without loosing time.

The beaker overflow gets added to the next tech, so you are wasting beakers here.