Culture-Flipping Exposed

Originally posted by Reichsmarshal
Culture Flipping is like a land mine that can destory multiple garrisoned armies. The way it works in the game doesn't resemble real life, espcially since cities that you built can flip fairly easily whilst it is very hard to get the computer's nartural cities to flip. [/B]

Well that would be a question of playing style. I may have lost occassionally on a flip, but I far more often gain than lose. You have to rush the temple.
 
Originally posted by Ironikinit
Riechsmarshall,

All I can think on reading your post is that you're not building enough culture producing buildings or that you're at war too much. As I understand it, culture production is cut in half during wartime.

Anyway, if I'm left at peace for a long while I can almost guarantee getting rival cities to flip to me along a long border. I tend to be well ahead on culture in the early game anyway, and if rush temples and libraries in border cities, chances are some AI cities will come to me eventually. Even if I'm pretty war torn, it's unusual to lose cities I've built to the AI via flipping. I have lost one or two that were on a salient and that I neglected to build up.

Yep in my just finished regent game, I had a half dozen AI cities flip to me, only one of which I actually was expecting to flip at some point. I also had a fair number of military campaigns, and did not loose any city that I took.
 
I am playing a game on Marla's map as India right now and most of SE Asia and Indonesia has flipped to me from the Chinese! Just because I had a cultural growing Singapore and Hanoi, and later on Djakarta.

Also I captured the British Isles, where London had a cultural value of +11.000 (yes eleven thousand) !!!!! It is still in my hands with a Tempel, Cathedral, Library in place and a University in progress. I kept a moderate garrison until the Library was completed. Only city to flip back to the English was Canterbury (located on the Irish isle).

btw in almost all of my cities get a temple and a cathedral which helps both in happiness and culture!

So IMHO it is very well possible to have a wide spread empire and have good flipping results if precautions are taken.
 
Originally posted by Ironikinit
Riechsmarshall,

All I can think on reading your post is that you're not building enough culture producing buildings or that you're at war too much. As I understand it, culture production is cut in half during wartime.

Anyway, if I'm left at peace for a long while I can almost guarantee getting rival cities to flip to me along a long border. I tend to be well ahead on culture in the early game anyway, and if rush temples and libraries in border cities, chances are some AI cities will come to me eventually. Even if I'm pretty war torn, it's unusual to lose cities I've built to the AI via flipping. I have lost one or two that were on a salient and that I neglected to build up.

As for the spy nostalgia, I think it's interesting that few people complain about unrealistic features if they favor or are exploitable by the human. Civ 2's AI did bribe a bit, but nothing compared to how much I would.

I usually have vastly superior culture to the foe I am fighting. Even when the enemy is almost in awe it still happens. It actually happens less when the enemy has good culture and lower population (resistors?)

Whenever I a make peace the cities usually flip back.

Culture flip would be much better if you did not lose every unit in the city. Mabey they could relocate instead of losing such huge military power.

And yes, I do flip enemy cities when at peace (this requires generally at least triple the culture, preferablly more like 6x).
 
Originally posted by etj4Eagle


Yep in my just finished regent game, I had a half dozen AI cities flip to me, only one of which I actually was expecting to flip at some point. I also had a fair number of military campaigns, and did not loose any city that I took.

I often get flips along crowded borders, but often not the cities I expected (one was across water, and much closer to their capital). And then there's cities I "go after" relentlessly (had one surrounded by twelve of my tiles while it was still a radius 1 city) and the bugger won't flip! I've also been watching borders shift back and forth with my neighbours and am trying to figure out how to control this to my advantage - does it have to do with units, workers, or what?
 
Originally posted by Park Ranger


does it have to do with units, workers, or what?

culture only!
culture of the adjacent cities, and culture overall.

e.g. if you sttle between two cities your daius will sometimes touch your city - but if your overall culture is way stronger, often the first 2 points of culture will make it move towards the foreign cities - before your radius expands!
 
Originally posted by Killer


culture only!
culture of the adjacent cities, and culture overall.

e.g. if you sttle between two cities your daius will sometimes touch your city - but if your overall culture is way stronger, often the first 2 points of culture will make it move towards the foreign cities - before your radius expands!

OK! That fits what I've seen - thnx. So if two cities are 4 tiles apart, that one strip of overlap may shift back and forth every time either city builds a culture-producing improvement? Or if overall culture increases?
 
Originally posted by Park Ranger


OK! That fits what I've seen - thnx. So if two cities are 4 tiles apart, that one strip of overlap may shift back and forth every time either city builds a culture-producing improvement? Or if overall culture increases?

or if the radius expands. Sometimes you can see it shift this way, then right back the same turn - if it`S very close and the changes even out....
 
OK! That fits what I've seen - thnx. So if two cities are 4 tiles apart, that one strip of overlap may shift back and forth every time either city builds a culture-producing improvement? Or if overall culture increases?

Yes I have had this happen. Every single turn, a group of tiles would switch back and forth between my city and an Egyptian one. Finally investigated their city and found out both of us had a temple and we were 1 cp away from each other (77-78). So, in a turn the computer would add the 2cp to Eqypt's city, they gain the land. Then it's my turn, 2 cp added to my city, re-claimed the land. Three tiles just kept flipping back and forth for like 15 turns before I decided the heck with this and rushed a library, so I reclaimed the land for good.
 
This analysis (you know, the one that started the thread) was posted before the 1.17f patch. In the 1.17f patch info:

It is now possible to completely suppress a city's cultural reversion with enough military units.

This certainly has the potential to stop a lot of the inability-to-conquer-people trouble, and in my experiences with post-1.17 wars it seems to be the case; leaving several units in a city does seem to keep it from flipping.

Is there any official, detailed word (i.e. another post like this) from the developers as to exactly how and how much this was tweaked?
 
Originally posted by Zachriel


Do you rush the temple? Time is of the essence.

Yes. I try to get out a temple and a library as fast as possible even if the money is wasted because the enemy gets the city back. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't.

If playing religious I go for temple 1st. If scientific I go for library. If neither temple is better (has better effects for caputered cities. When a city flips at least a few of the units should escape. Mabey just the more obsolete varitey should disappear.

Think of it this way: There is an unstoppable revolt in the city. The generals realize that they need to get out of there if they want to live. So the retreat all the way back to your territory. Mabey a few would not be able to get out, those would be the ones that vanish.
 
Originally posted by Reichsmarshal
Yes. I try to get out a temple and a library as fast as possible even if the money is wasted because the enemy gets the city back. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't.

I wonder what the difference is? I almost never lose a city to a flip.

There is no doubt that some of the soldiers should have a chance to escape. Even if the units are bribed, some won't betray their home empire. I always liked the partisan model better. You control the city, they control the countryside. If they are aggressive and lucky, they might actually take the city. If you have the wherewithal, you can suppress the revolt. It also seems to be more intuitive for most players.
 
:confused:

Interesting reading, the "flipping" factors, but I am a bit confused; the latest patch' "read me" states that:

"It is now possible to completely suppress a city's cultural reversion with enough military units."
(wonder how to figure out how many is enough??)

....how does that correspond with:


Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
.....

6) Lastly, the number of land-based combat units (e.g., any unit with at least 1 point of offensive and defensive capability) in the city in question are subtracted. This factor is relatively low on the totem pole and this shows you why cities can flip even with huge militias garrisoned in them.....

Dan

.....?

Thanx - Great game - great site
 
Tha patch was released after the first post to this thread. The readme states the change made to culture flipping.
 
Originally posted by Insomniac
:confused:

Interesting reading, the "flipping" factors, but I am a bit confused; the latest patch' "read me" states that:

"It is now possible to completely suppress a city's cultural reversion with enough military units."
(wonder how to figure out how many is enough??)

....how does that correspond with:


The situation is that prior to the patch the military component could never actually reduce the probability to zero, hence there was always a chance. So after a certain point adding more units had no effect. However, now that military unit factor can force the probability to zero. Though it is still only a minor contributor and the effect has not been quantified. Though there was a post that seemed to suggest that 2 military units per foreigner would negate the effect of that foreignor (though this is at some undefined culture ratio and cap distance ratio).
 
Thank U for the clarification :) However, I fail to see how garrisoned units can be a minor factor only if

It is now possible to completely suppress a city's cultural reversion with enough military units

holds true...(?) I mean it sounds like it would be possible to suppress cultural reversion through military force alone..or maybe I'm reading it wrong (very possibly :) )
 
Originally posted by Insomniac
Thank U for the clarification :) However, I fail to see how garrisoned units can be a minor factor only if



holds true...(?) I mean it sounds like it would be possible to suppress cultural reversion through military force alone..or maybe I'm reading it wrong (very possibly :) )


What this means is that the effect of adding a military unit may only adjust the flip chance by a fraction of a percentage point, but having one less foreignor or controlling one more of the 21 working tiles may reduce that prob by a many percentage points.

For example say that: (these are not real values)
capital distance = up to 10% chance
culture ratio = up to 10%
21 working tiles = up to 20%
each foreignor = 5%
each military unit reduces by 1%

In this above case the military effect is quite minor. However, if you throw in enough military units their cumlative effect can still negate all the more major effects.

This is what Dan was referring to in his original post, of course the game numbers are different, but the gist is the same.
 
Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS

6) Lastly, the number of land-based combat units (e.g., any unit with at least 1 point of offensive and defensive capability) in the city in question are subtracted. This factor is relatively low on the totem pole and this shows you why cities can flip even with huge militias garrisoned in them.

Let's say Civ. A has a city with 6 units in it. This city flips over to Civ. B. Civ. A loses those units that were in their former city. But Civ. B doesn't get those units. Where do they go???? (Or should we just chalk this up to alien abductions? :scan: ) :borg:
 
This is the one I've been describing as likely, and is the source for the most aggrevating flips - the ones one or two turns after capture. This is a really poor concept in game design, especially when coupled with the "lose all units" factor, as the inteligent tactic is to park your army ina freshly taken city to quell resistance and heal - doing so with these rule means you will lose armies.

It also encourages a very early aggressive military, or genocide. The first option takes cities before they reach the threshhold where flipping immediately after capture is likely, the second eliminates flipping entirely. Neither makes for a good game of Civilization, as neither have much to do with behaving civily. [/B]

Here's how THAT goes:

take over a city. garrison troops in the city. get squared away. start building a temple (or a library).

*flip!*

get more troops out to that area. take over the same city. garrison new troops in the same city. get squared away again. start rebuilding the temple (or library).

*flip!*

get more troops out to that area. take over the same city, again. garrison the new troops in the city. get squared away all over again. start rebuilding the temple (or library).

*flip!*

develop a complex. get even more troops out to that same area. take over the same city -- again. garrison new troops in the city. get all squared away again. start rebuilding the temple (or library). hope the city doesn't --

*flip!*

go bezerk. start wiping out that civilization (in this case *Sangi remarks dryly* it was the English...) to prevent the city from having any previous civ. to flip back to. finish game. schedule a therapy appointment..
 
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