RB6 - Island Hopping

[Sirian]

Originally Posted by weakciv

So in a situation where we have all these +GP pieces running it is a good idea to save GP for golden ages. right?

The Great People are one of those "simple yet deep" concepts that really throw a shoe in to the works of canned strategy. You have to run no food from a population point to generate specialists. There are the wonder points, too, and the National Epic. Which city should get it? When? Why? (What other national wonders do you want where?)

We're running Pacifism halfway for economic reasons (it's the cheapest religion civic for peaceful builders) and halfway because it boosts the value of our Parthenon. It's a good civic to use when your religion is not yet widely spread out, or when your food is in good supply but shields aren't.

if you're running it, you might as well take advantage of what it offers: and in this case, that would be golden ages. GAs are worth more to larger civs. City specialists are worth more to smaller civs. We're not a small civ here! Super specialists planted in cities are worth more early, as are tech grabs. Golden Ages are worth a lot more once your cities have matured a little. (They don't help a bunch of size 1 and 2 cities running unimproved plots!)

On a Large or Huge map with lots and lots of cities, it can literally be foolish to plant your leaders in to cities.

All of this changes with the situation in the game. Different maps, different civs, different options and situations... Certainly I would not be running those kind of specialists in every situation. However, since we had to go all the way to Philosophy to found our own religion, it seemed worthwhile to use Pacifism. Pacifism is literally worthless in most of our cities, which will never pop a leader, ever, because the bigger cities with wonders and food will keep moving the goalposts! Pacifism was there, and useful quickly to few cities, and a fun thing to do that is somewhat off the beaten path of OrgRel or Theo.

There are many right paths, but few of them can be realized with a half-hearted effort. You can specialize in almost anything, but it is rarely good to fail to specialize in something! If we're going to use certain Civics, shouldn't we try to get the most out of them? If we took the time to build wonders that boost specialist use, shouldn't we use more of them? We'll probably shift gears at some point, but this is where we are now.


- Sirian

[weakciv]

ahh ok I have always looked at GP for their Techs first then special buildings. If neither were good then I make them citizens. I just dont like haveing things sitting idle.

Then again this is the first game I have played where the civ I was controling has these buildings/civ/wonder combinations.

I know there is no "blanket" answer but I think I understand GP a bit better now. Thanks.

[Garath]

I see it. May not get to it until tomorrow, though.

[Bezhukov]

Free Religion is also handy on higher levels to manage AI warmongering from a neutral position, while also providing a nice little happiness cushion. From reading these SG's, it looks like people are slightly (sometimes more than slightly!) overrating the value of specialists. The problem with specilists is they often require farms to support them.

Farms generate no commerce or production.

Farms are bad.

Yes, there are exceptions, but they are not the rule...

[Thormodr]

Like anything in Civ4 it is all about the particular situation. Farms are excellent in certain situations. So are specs. Specs can get you extra commerce, science (especialy with Representation), production or culture.
With enough specs you can start churning out Great People. With those you can get even more commerce, science, production, culture or even food with a Great Merchant.
Great with OCC. Or you can save them and start Golden Ages with large empires. They are almost always worthwhile pursuing though I think.
My current SG (Monarch OCC Straight up) has taught me the value of Great People.

[romeothemonk]

Ah, Bez, my old punching bag, we meet again!!
I have really limited experience playing c4, but I have noticed that there are many different approaches that work well. For example, I have found that in my experience, specialists are good, at certain points. In the infantry and up stage, I have found little to no use for them. Of course that is play style affects as well.
I have found warmongering to be extremely useful, and as much as it pains me to say it, almost borken in favor of the player. Not quite as bad as the old giant SoD's of Civ 3, but I am able to handily whup the snot out of monarch AI's without a coherent plan on my side, as well as no air support or SAM support.
It reminds me of my favorite joke about the fictional WW3 scenario's.
A Russian tank general turns to another tank general in Paris, "by the way, who won the air war?"
enough threadjacking for now. Ill leave the bad jokes to Sirian. Age has a method of perfecting them.

[Bezhukov]

What's the soon to be old saying?

On Monarch, anything works.

I'm just saying, I'm winning on Emperor/Immortal, reading about people struggling on Prince and below, and trying to figure out the disparity.

Here's the deal: You've got two citizens, and two options:

Farm+scientist = 0 hammers, 0 commerce, 3 science, 3 GPP/turn

2 towns = 0 hammers (or 2 with suffrage), 14 commerce (or 16 with financial)

Just saying....

And now, back to your regularly scheduled programming, sorry 'bout the threadjacking, but I suspect your hydra has led some people astray, Sirian.

[Sadan01]

Originally Posted by Sirian

The Great People are one of those "simple yet deep" concepts that really throw a shoe in to the works of canned strategy. <Snip to save space>

Sirian, if only I knew 1/4 of what you know about Civ4 I would be playing much better (when I get the chance to - still flat-chat with work so Civ time is limited). That was a very imformative post, among many others you have posted in this thread.

The role(s) of specialists, especially GP, is something I don't fully understand myself in this latest incarnation, so every bit of information I can read is most helpful. I guess what I find even harder is putting all the bits together, depending on the situation in each game, to make a coherent strategy that works. Sometimes Civ4 throws me a game where it does seem straightforward and I win. Other times, I am thrown into situations where certain Civics are not available or I get a GP that I've never used before, or I am using a Civ with traits I don't have much experience with (play random Civ on start for SP games) etc etc etc. This is one of many things I love about this game but also something where guidance and information from others is a good thing too.

[Sirian]

Originally Posted by Bezhukov

I'm winning on Emperor/Immortal, reading about people struggling on Prince and below...

Difficulty level alone is not a reliable measurement. You can get a better sense of how you're faring by jumping in to GOTM or the RB tourneys.

Relying on cottages depends on the overall food supply. That approach won't fly on every map script, in every situation, though it works wonders in some situations. Religion doesn't work for every game, either. Neither does war.

Cottages don't offer 7gpt for free. You have to run Free Speech and get them all the way to Towns, which takes 70 turns, or 35 turns post-Emancipation (which hits the board rather late). You also overlook the potential impact of Great People, which throws a big wrench in to the equation.

A more significant equation is the one between running cottage+windmill vs farm+mine. The farm and mine means 2 shields per turn. The cottage and windmill means 2 commerce per turn, growing up to 3 and then 4 commerce per turn as you stick with it. Still, the extra shields means getting that library done faster, or gets you a wonder you otherwise miss, or gets you the extra military unit that saves (or takes down) a city. ... Or maybe not. Depends on what you do with those shields, or what you do with that commerce. Maybe the commerce gets you a free great person for getting to a certain tech first, or gets you the wonder by being able to start it sooner.

Everything comes with an opportunity cost. Which way is best also depends on your civ traits. Early forges can boost the value of shields, and running two farms and an Engineer vs three cottages may pop a Great Engineer for you in the early going, when it can steal a major wonder for you. Or maybe an early Oracle, picked up along your religion path, is spent on Metal Casting. Philosophical won't mix with industrious, but a philo civ who gets early forges can do a lot with them.

Look at the RB7 map and see how many cottages that civ could run. No one formula is going to win in all situations. If you think I run the Hydra in every game, then you aren't paying close attention.


- Sirian

[ThERat]

sorry to hijack your thread as well, but I agree that formula is too simplistic. Look at LoTR18 and see how powerful a no cottage strategy can be.
Because in your equation you completely neglect city growth, Bez. With farms you can grow much faster and that can be powerful. Even more so when biology comes in.

As Sirian said, it all depends on the situation.

[Sullla]

After this weekend, I'd also encourage people to read the reports from Adventure Two. You will never look at land the same way again after playing from a start like that.

[Bezhukov]

Adventure two was mucho fun - great setup! Windmills, windmills, as far as the eye can see!

I still make use of specialists (my favorite is the Great Merchant to supercharge food poor cities or my GP farm), and I'm not addicted to cottages - I think my favorite improvement is actually the watermill - but my default strategy is to minimize farms. New cities get all farms to get all the tiles worked, but once this achieved, I'll switch farms to more productive uses, even if this requires some windmills to keep everyone fed. Updating improvements also keeps workers busy between new worker techs.

I rely more on wonders+National Epic+(eventually) Statue of Liberty to generate a decent amount of GP's, focusing on one city, with the rest minimizing specialists (fishing villages and their resident engineer aside). Playing a philosophical civ, I might go for a couple early academies with one sci specialist city, or with an industrious civ/stone supply, the pyramids/hanging gardens great engineer gambit, but the default strategy is to get productive (i.e. non-farm) tiles developed and worked.

[Bezhukov]

"Because in your equation you completely neglect city growth, Bez."

I think I've posted many other places that my first priority is growth. I nearly always start the game with a worker/workboat researching the tech needed to get growth going. Subsequent cities are founded based on proximity to food bonuses.

Minimizing farms is a long-term, default strategy (there are of course many exceptions), that informs everything from research choices (priority on biology, for instance), to civic selection (depending on the map, state property can eliminate lots of extraneous farms), to worker supply (lots to reimprove cities once they hit the growth limit). It also, incidently, implies going for fewer GP's than many of the strategies I've watched on the SG's, but due to the geometric cost of GP's, not that many fewer...

[Garath]

Bezhukov: Remove your spoilers for Adventure Two, please. NOW. You know the rules, surely. ABSOLUTELY NO SPOILERS. That is, you say *nothing* beyond 'Playing' and 'Game Complete' until Report Day, which is Monday.

Take that post away, please.

--Garath

PS will play today, in a few hours. Just to stay on-topic.

[Garath]

This game is definitely expanding quickly! It took me quite a while to get back up to speed with it.

Pre-turn:

1: We only have one missionary, and are only building one more. Given how limiting three total is, I think we should *always* have three, including those in production. I shove one in at Paris, making the Grocer wait 2 turns.

2: We're due a GP in 4 turns from Paris. He will not be a Prophet, as none of the points are prophet points. Unless he's an Engineer (20% chance) and possibly even if, I'll use him and the prophet we have stored to make a Golden Age.

3: We still have some Galleys, but loads of money, so there's no reason to be using them ever. I'll upgrade them all to Galleons

4: On The Spread Of The Way:

4a: We currently have Mansa and Tokugawa on our side. Washington is dubiously a friend, but at last sight all of his cities had Confucianism, which he founded. In such a situation, I don't think it's ever possible to convert the AI, is it? Qin, on the other hand, did not found Judaism, his religion, and we have Open Borders with him. I'm going to concentrate on trying to convert him, now that we have four of Mansa's cities converted. Mansa may do the rest himself, but even if not we can wait.

4b: We still have half a dozen of our own cities not following the Way, but as Sirian says, with the civics we're running, they're not high priority.

4c: Converting Qin may be a race against time before Mansa asks us to cancel deals with him, since we ought to if he does.

5: Militarily, we need to get some more defence to the cities on both Tokugawa's second island and Asoka's, otherwise we will end up losing at least one of them. I'd also like to get a couple of Galleons of troops and a couple of settlers up here:



There are a few spare troops at Home, I'll take some of them. I can send off a Galleon of those, and then follow up with another with settlers and more troops on once I can build the settlers.

6: As regards builds, I've inherited an empire with ONE military build, and that's in a city way off in the middle of nowhere! I know there's a lot of infrastructure available, and we are first in Power, but we're also twice as big as anyone else, so there's no reason to get complacent! I need to find some space for more military (and those settlers). Speaking of which, I set one going in Rosette (6 turns), and one at Rheims (5 turns). Military I think can wait until the current builds finish, but if we're going to get that island, it needs to be done *now*.

7: There are various bits and bobs of transport to do, like getting a Work Boat out to Cherbourg (it certainly won't be building its own), at least one more worker to Ris-volee (and more military), so... We Still Need More Boats! Don't know when I'll have time to build them, though.

8: We need more workers, too! There are Lumbermills to build, and we need more to go with the continuing colonies, too.


9: And I must have forgotten something, still. Anyway...



First Turn (1630):

Grenoble builds Courthouse. Ooh! Somewhere with decent-ish production and little commerce. I can afford to build some military here. After a Barracks.

Gandhi pulls an Engineer. Wonder what he'll do with him?

Where, exactly, did I get the impression Galleons could carry four units? Anyway, the first Galleon of troops sets of for Final Isle. The detour around China means it'll take 8 turns to get there, but I should still be able to capture Illinois on my round, particularly if it still has Warriors defending it when I get there! I won't get the settlers there, but I'll try to leave them on their way.

Second Turn (1635):

Gunpowder completes. Seeing on research strategy left to me by previous leaders, I decide on Nationalism, then industrialise, probably beelining. The Scientist at Physics might well be nice, or we could head straight for Combustion and some Real Sea Power. Either way, though, it's Nationalism now. The Taj Mahal would be a coup, with an empire like this! We don't have any Marble, though, nor can we trade for any, so we'll have to build it out the long way.

Missionaries complete in Poly and Paris. Paris goes back to the Grocer it was on before, and Poly starts our first Musketeer. We may not want many, with the pace of technology (I could have chosen Rifling for this next tech), but what sort of French would we be without even one of our famed Musketeers? Also, I don't want to build more missionaries in Poly, it's terribly placed for travel times to Mali and China, where we're sending them at the moment.

Third Turn (1640):

Mansa comes offering Divine RIght and 50g for Printing Press. I ask to negotiate, and he throws Drama and his World Map into the deal as well. Since we want to cultivate the relationship with him, and we can surely use Theatres for the cheap culture, I make the deal, even though Printing Press is likely monopoly. He's offering value, at least.

The first proponent of the Way to volunteer to go preach it in China gets there... at which point I think to check whether he's in Theocracy. He is. BLAST!

After a short pause for thought, I dial him up, and pay him 530 gold (of our stash of over 2k) to convert to Pacifism! 5 turns will get me a couple of missionaries into his big, pagan cities, and hopefully even if he does revolt back at the end of 5 turns, a second round of the same on Sirian's turn should finish it.

Fourth Turn (1645):

Lots of stuff in the IT this turn:

(well, you would have been able to see it if my shot of the event log had taken. Asoka built minaret. Qin changed to Pacifism as promised. Popped an artist. Couple of less relevant things)

We were never in the running for the Spiral Minaret, nice as it would have been, or we'd have pushed Divine Right at some point.

Popped an Artist in Paris. You know what that means...



The second Galleon sets off to Final Isle, now that I've built a worker to go with it. The last one, with the settlers, should be off in not many turns, now we're in a GA. Temporarily, just for the Golden Age and since it's just popped a GP, I pull out the Engineer in Paris, in favour of working the last hill, for more shields. It drops a turn on the Grocer, to time it with Nationalism. Paris is still our highest shield producer, so I'm going to build the Taj Mahal there.



The Way spreads in Chinese lands for the first time, now that Qin's newly joined us in peaceful ways!



I immediately start another missionary, in Orleans, though it delays the market. There will be no delays whatsoever in the spread of the Way while I'm in charge!

[Garath]

Fifth Turn (1650):

(Nope. Still can't take a shot of Mansa demanding I cancel deals with Qin)

Why couldn't you just have waited 10 more turns, Mansa? WHY?? Look, I've just paid them lots of money so that I can get missionaries in, and if that goes well, you won't even hate him anymore. So look, mate, just give me 10 turns, and then if you still want me to cancel them, I will. OK? ... OK?

Blast. He's not listening. In that case, given the investment I've sunk into winning Qin over already, and the speed with which I think I can do so (it's really not that far to China, and I've got the missionaries cranking) I'm going to have to deny him. I hate to do it, since we may need every point of relationship we can get to get diplo votes, but I think in the long run it'll be worth it. If I can't convert China, though....

Wouldn't it be nice if I could actually have said all that to him, eh?

Nothing else of particular significance happens. A few builds finish, but there's no purpose in detailing all of them anymore.


Sixth Turn (1655):

Nationalism -> Chemistry. In 2. Gotta love Golden Age science!

Paris: Grocer -> Taj Mahal. Due in 11, or it would be if more than 6 of the turns were in GA production.


Seventh Turn (1660):

Huayna demands Philosophy. He's no friend of ours. I Want Doesn't Get. Remember that, Huayna. Ask nicely, and maybe you might actually get something next time.

Nothing much else. Final transport sets off for Final Isle.


Eighth Turn (1665):

Chemistry -> Steel. Heading up the line to decent ships, railroads, all that sort of thing.


Ninth Turn (1670):



arty:

It paid off! He's immediately up to +6 with us, and that should only rise, with time. Mansa doesn't mind him, anymore, but he still hates Mansa (-4 for You Refused To Stop Trading With Our Worst Enemies!). Better keep an eye on that, guys. Hopefully their relations will improve with time, too. At least neither is the other's *worst* enemy right now.I further spread the Way to two more of his cities this same turn. One left.

(and the capture shot of Illinois didn't get taken either! Bah! I think that one was probably my error, though)

Two warriors weren't much of a threat on defence.


Final Turn (1675):

Not much except a *lot* of moving ships around.

[Garath]

Thoughts and Round-up:

1: The State Of The Way:







I haven't spread any more at home. I have, however, spread the Way to all but one of China's visible cities, and he's converted to our side. He's still in Pacifism, too.

I suspect what we need to do now is focus on welding together the three nations we have on our side into a coherent whole. Currently, they don't all love each other enough, or for that matter us. Tokugawa *still* won't even talk to us, so we can't get Open Borders to spread the Way any further into his lands. It hasn't spread any further by itself, either.

The next priority must be on finishing the spread to Mansa and Qin's lands, so we don't get bitten by a flip back to something else, and on finishing the spread to our own lands, therefore. We can still get a lot more cash from the Dai Maio, yet! I don't see any real point in spreading to Roosevelt, personally. He won't join us.

Also note that Taoism is currently at 41% of the world population. I believe there's an additional bonus for getting 50%, right? We can probably get that.

The actual locations of the current missionaries:



There's one missionary in the Caravel to the north, who can head to the last city in China or up to Mali, as you desire. There's one more building in Rheims, to join the caravel returning from China.



Having said I wasn't going to build any more missionaries in Poly, that's precisely where the last one is. I didn't have any more cities to hand at Home, and I want to get Taoism into Delhi so we can keep tabs on it in the long run. Since I anticipate losing our Open Borders with Asoka at some point, I want to get that done now.

I didn't ever not have three missionaries on the table during my turns. I don't see any reason to stop yet.



2: The colonisation effort:

You've already seen that I took Illinois. There was a worker there, and another one has been shipped in since. There will also be five, up-to-date, military units there, once the last Galleon gets in.



There it is. There are two settlers and the fifth military unit on it. I appreciate that there are more than two dots to fill on Final Isle, even given how much of it is covered with desert, but that's all I could lay hands on in a short enough timespan. Another couple will be needed. They can probably be timed to synchronise with the return of the Galleons.



This Galleon holds improved defence and additional jungle-chopping force for Ris-volee.



There are two muskets in production here. I've built them with the intention of shoving them both onto the visible Galleon (placed so they're both in 1-turn range of it) and heading them up to Cherbourg on Toku's island. It may need a serious defence force, even though we're hoping to culivate him as our friend.



Speaking of that island, there may well still be a couple of dots available on it. I haven't gone for them, since I felt Final Isle was higher priority. Next players may want to push for them, though.

Also note the ships on either side of the island. They're both returning from Final Isle, I had then checking for additional red influences on the island here on their ways back.

[Garath]

3: The military situation:

We are, of course, still first on the chart, possibly even by an increased margin. All I built was two muskets, though, and both of those (plus most of those in production, of which there are several) are being shipped off places. In fact, since I stripped off about half the decent military from Home to go take Final Isle, we're probably weaker in real military terms than we were when I got the game. Sorry about that, but I have at least left some in production. There are a lot of builds finishing in the next couple of turns, though, as the Golden Age wraps up.


4: Economy:

Economically, of course, we're doing better than ever. It's hard to say how much of that is due to the Golden Age, though. On the other hand... the Taj Mahal should complete in 8 or 9 turns, so we'll have *another* Golden Age then. By the end of *that*, we should have most of the science and gold buildings in place in our major cities, I think. I only managed to start one Observatory, though. All those missionaries make other things wait. Worth it, though, I think...



And nobody has a tech we don't. It's going well. Push the advantage by heading deep into the tree.


5: Diplomacy:

We now have three 'allies' who follow the Way:

Mansa, at +8.
Qin, at +6.
Toku, at +4.

We have three 'enemies', who do not. I don't think we'll be able to gain any of them, either. They're all the founders of their religions, and have them spread pretty much everywhere. On the other hand, we don't actually have terrible relations with all of them yet:

Asoka, at +3
Roosevelt, at 0.
Capac, at -5.

Yeah, OK. Capac hates us. But that's why we're keeping a significant military force, right?


Finally (I think), a shot of our GA-Boosted Demographics. Just because they're fun. (also, how are the rankings for import/export calculated, that leaves us 4th, with those numbers? I don't get it.)



I'm done. Sirian is Up.

--Garath

[Garath]

And the save.

[Sirian]

I played. Probably won't have the report up until tomorrow, though.