Ancient Illyria and Ethnic Albania as Playable Civilizations!

[Azkonus]

Originally Posted by Shqype

There is no "special relation" between Turks and Albanians. They have been enemies for centuries. The only "special relation" is between Muslim Albanians and Muslim Turks that share a common religion. While this may have been an issue centuries ago, it is not today because Turks aren't a problem for Albanians anymore.

You are the first Albanian that I know, who does not like Turks.

The special relation, as you had it in your signature correctly; some Albanians were rulers of Ottomans (Pashas and Grand Viziers). There were 61 of them who decided the fate of the 'Devlet-i Aliye-i Osmaniye' and its entire people. Above all, a lot say Mustafa Kemal Ataturk had Albanian blood too.

Below is the site of Albanians who live in Turkey. You can check the name of the pasha's here.
http://www.arnavutum.com/
(They say, Jam Krenar Qe Jam Shqiptar, maybe you can contact with them to get a better view of Turks)

So sometimes Albanians were ruling over Turks, Albanians, Greeks, Serbians, Bulgars etc...

Additionally, resistance of Gjergj Kastrioti is a great story and needs to be told to people and Albanian youth, however there is no need to show Turks as bad people here, there was resistance and sultan sent his army to gain the control back. In fact he needed to send it 3 times. Also after Ottomans are gone you still live in Albania, talk Albanian, live like an Albanian, however not all empires of the time treated that way.

(see: Scottish, Irish, native Americans talking English)
(see: Aztecs talking Spanish)

Moreover, love your people no matter what. They can be from south of Albania or they may have changed their religion. They are all Albanians and you should be the one who wants to bring them together. All great leaders are the ones who unite their people under one cause.


As for the borders go, I think both Velja and you are right partially. The borders are drawn based on treaties, however every ethnicity who live there has the right to reject it and fight for a better agreement. After that point competition starts, one who is stronger will win as always, as in life, just as in a civ game.

PS. I think you will love Turks, and Albanians living in Turkey once you start to know them.

[Velja]

Hehe, Shqype, a lot of copy/paste again, but still none of my question is answered.

Originally Posted by Azkonus

As for the borders go, I think both Velja and you are right partially.

The reason, I'm being so "aggressive" is that Shqype was a strongly oposing that I should put some cities from Croatia(Knin,...) and Bosnia(Banja Luka,...) in my Serbian mod. He even tried to persuade me not to put part of my country in.
I didnt put those cities(from Bosnia and Croatia) with great Serbian majority, because they are not within Serbian borders. Maybe I want them to be, maybe they should be, but they are not. End of Story.

If he was against it, than he should be against putting Serbian and Montenegrin cities with great Albanian majority in Albanian mod, very logic isnt it?

edit:

Originally Posted by Shqype

Hitler united Kosova with Albania because he knew Kosova was Albanian land, and that the Albanians were the descendants of the Illyrians. He looked at them as Aryans, and thus unified their land.

That's why he gave north Serbia to Hungary, and eastern Serbia to Bulgaria?

[deo]

Originally Posted by Azkonus

You are the first Albanian that I know, who does not like Turks.

The special relation, as you had it in your signature correctly; some Albanians were rulers of Ottomans (Pashas and Grand Viziers). There were 61 of them who decided the fate of the 'Devlet-i Aliye-i Osmaniye' and its entire people. Above all, a lot say Mustafa Kemal Ataturk had Albanian blood too.

Below is the site of Albanians who live in Turkey. You can check the name of the pasha's here.
http://www.arnavutum.com/
(They say, Jam Krenar Qe Jam Shqiptar, maybe you can contact with them to get a better view of Turks)

So sometimes Albanians were ruling over Turks, Albanians, Greeks, Serbians, Bulgars etc...

Additionally, resistance of Gjergj Kastrioti is a great story and needs to be told to people and Albanian youth, however there is no need to show Turks as bad people here, there was resistance and sultan sent his army to gain the control back. In fact he needed to send it 3 times. Also after Ottomans are gone you still live in Albania, talk Albanian, live like an Albanian, however not all empires of the time treated that way.

(see: Scottish, Irish, native Americans talking English)
(see: Aztecs talking Spanish)

Moreover, love your people no matter what. They can be from south of Albania or they may have changed their religion. They are all Albanians and you should be the one who wants to bring them together. All great leaders are the ones who unite their people under one cause.


As for the borders go, I think both Velja and you are right partially. The borders are drawn based on treaties, however every ethnicity who live there has the right to reject it and fight for a better agreement. After that point competition starts one stronger will win as always, as in life, just as in a civ game.

PS. I think you will love Turks, and Albanians living in Turkey once you start to know them.

Completely agree here.

I remember Turkey and Albania were in the same group for the WC qualification and whenever you played Grecce, we supported you, also when you played us in the last game that was very importiant, we somehow let you win

[Shqype]

Azkonus, you brought up some good points. I'm not speaking against Albanians living in Turkey. Many of them were deported there by the Serbs. I was speaking against Turkish loyalists that supported the Empire rather than fight alongside Albanians for independence.

Albanian strength is in Albanian unity. The times we were most powerful were when we were all united: before Roman times we had strength in a unified Illyrian kingdom under Bardhyli; during Gjergj Kastrioti's time we had strength in unified Albanian tribes/feudal chieftains against the Ottoman Empire; during our national re-awakening we had strength in unified Albanian tribes and Albanian forces, and were able to take our land back from the Turks. Unity is the only way we can accomplish anything.

Unfortunately for Albanians, we are a cursed race plagued by all sorts of divisions. It was these divisions that allowed our enemies to take advantage of us and pit us against each other to conquer us. It is for this reason why about 1/2 of Albanian land today is outside the present-day state of Albania.

[Velja]

Shqype, you still have no answer to my questions, you can always say :"I don't know".

[Shqype]

I thought my replies answered your questions that you were asking. I thought someone could interpret the timeline to answer your questions. I guess not. If you can ask me what is troubling you, what you don't yet understand, then I can clarify for you. Is that fair?

[Velja]

Fair enough.

1. What percentage of Albanian population does it take to claim a city to be Albanian?

2. Since when ethnic borders became actual borders?

3. When was Prishtina (for example) inside Albanian state?

4. What was Kastrioti? A king? Something else? Did he have any territory besides the castle he defended for a long time?

5. If only norm for claiming a city to be Albanian is that the city has Albanian majority, how come you were against putting Banja Luka and Knin (again for example) in Serbian city list?

6.

Originally Posted by Shqype

Hitler united Kosova with Albania because he knew Kosova was Albanian land, and that the Albanians were the descendants of the Illyrians. He looked at them as Aryans, and thus unified their land.

That's why he gave north Serbia to Hungary, and eastern Serbia to Bulgaria?

[Shqype]

1. What percentage of Albanian population does it take to claim a city to be Albanian?

It does not take a "percentage." For example, what used to be known as "Little Italy" in the Bronx, New York, now has many Albanians living there. Just because the Albanians comprise a very significant portion of the population of that area, it doesn't mean that "Little Italy" is Albanian. No percentage of Albanian population alone can effectively claim a city to be Albanian.

I brought up demographics because they are relevant, but they are not everything. The Albanian cities in my mod are cities where Albanians not only live today, but they are cities that were a) founded by our ancestors, b) were inhabited by our people for centuries, c) have importance to the Albanian people and nation.

It is these things collectively that make those cities Albanian. The cities I included were all part of the Albanian vilayets administered by the Ottoman Empire before they were divided amongst Albania's neighbors.

2. Since when ethnic borders became actual borders?

I'm not really sure what you're asking here... Please be more specific. What are "actual borders?" Borders that someone created on a map with a pencil without knowing much at all about the region he split up?

3. When was Prishtina (for example) inside Albanian state?

Define "state" and make an argument for its significanse in this discussion.

4. What was Kastrioti? A king? Something else? Did he have any territory besides the castle he defended for a long time?

Gjergj Kastrioti was the leader of the Albanian resistance against the Ottomans. Some call him "Warrior-King of Albania." Kruja was the center of Albanian resistance, but this castle by no means confined the Albanians. They fought against Turkish armies all over Albanian land. They defeated Turks by Shkodra, in middle Albania, around Manastiri and Oheri, Dibra, etc. etc.

Kastrioti's goal was not to carve an empire like the selfish rulers of his age. He made no attempt to conquer his neighbors and add their land to his kingdom/empire (like Stefan Dushan). He was too busy defending Catholic Western Europe from the might and fury of Mehmet the Conqueror, after continually defeating his father Murad.

5. If only norm for claiming a city to be Albanian is that the city has Albanian majority, how come you were against putting Banja Luka and Knin (again for example) in Serbian city list?

Again, I don't claim a city to be Albanian only on population. That is only an element of it. Alone it doesn't mean much.

I don't know about Banja Luka and Knin to comment effectively. I should not have spoken about those cities because I don't know about them.

That's why he gave north Serbia to Hungary, and eastern Serbia to Bulgaria?

I have not investigated, or heard even, of Hitler splitting Serbia between Hungary and Bulgaria. It is possible, I just don't know about it. I only know that he united Kosova with Albania proper.

Remember, about Hitler, there were many reasons he split up land. For example, he split Poland with Russia, taking half of it. Why? He wanted to expand his empire and remove the threat of a 2-front war with the Soviet Union.

Austria and Bulgaria were Hitler's allies, so it makes sense to me that he wanted to reward them for their pledged support. Thus, he split up Serbia, possibly because he wasn't too happy with them for igniting the first World War which put Germany to shame in the first place.

That is my educated guess.

[Velja]

Originally Posted by Shqype

It does not take a "percentage." For example, what used to be known as "Little Italy" in the Bronx, New York, now has many Albanians living there. Just because the Albanians comprise a very significant portion of the population of that area, it doesn't mean that "Little Italy" is Albanian. No percentage of Albanian population alone can effectively claim a city to be Albanian.

I brought up demographics because they are relevant, but they are not everything. The Albanian cities in my mod are cities where Albanians not only live today, but they are cities that were a) founded by our ancestors, b) were inhabited by our people for centuries, c) have importance to the Albanian people and nation.

Very well. I also think that demographics are not everything, and that's why I think that Kosovo should stay in Serbia in the future.
Just a piece of something you maybe didn't know about Kosovo:

The Ottomans brought Islamisation with them, particularly in towns, and later also created the Viyalet of Kosovo as one of the Ottoman territorial entities. This brought a great shift, as the Orthodox population (Serbian, Bulgarian, and Greek) began to lose its majority when masses of Turks and Albanians (Muslims or Catholics) moved to Kosovo. During the Islamisation many churches and holy orthodox places were raised to the ground or turned in to Mosques, leaving a hard . Kosovo was taken by the Austrian forces during the Great War of 1683 - 1699 with great help of 5000 Albanians and their leader, a Catholic Archibishop Pjetër Bogdani. The archbishop died of plague during the war, and his grave was later reopened, with his body scattered and given to the dogs by the Ottomans because of his role as a leader of the rebellion. In 1690, the Serbian Patriarch of Peć Arsenije III, who previously escaped a certain death, led 30,000 families from Kosovo, to evade Ottoman wrath since Kosovo had just been retaken by the Ottomans. The people that followed him were probably mostly Serbs, but it's possible also people of other different ethnic origins followed him. Due to the terror from the Ottomans, other migrations of Orthodox people from the Kosovo and Metohija area continued throughout the 18th century. It is also noted that some Serbs adopted Islam and some even gradually fused with the predominantly Albanian Moslems and adopted their culture and even language...

Taken from : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo#History

Originally Posted by Shqype

It is these things collectively that make those cities Albanian. The cities I included were all part of the Albanian vilayets administered by the Ottoman Empire before they were divided amongst Albania's neighbors.

Once again - those vilayets werent Albanian(as you can see from the quote above).

Originally Posted by Shqype

I'm not really sure what you're asking here... Please be more specific. What are "actual borders?" Borders that someone created on a map with a pencil without knowing much at all about the region he split up?

Never mind

Originally Posted by Shqype

Define "state" and make an argument for its significanse in this discussion.

Never mind, again

Originally Posted by Shqype

Gjergj Kastrioti was the leader of the Albanian resistance against the Ottomans. Some call him "Warrior-King of Albania." Kruja was the center of Albanian resistance, but this castle by no means confined the Albanians. They fought against Turkish armies all over Albanian land. They defeated Turks by Shkodra, in middle Albania, around Manastiri and Oheri, Dibra, etc. etc.

Kastrioti's goal was not to carve an empire like the selfish rulers of his age. He made no attempt to conquer his neighbors and add their land to his kingdom/empire (like Stefan Dushan). He was too busy defending Catholic Western Europe from the might and fury of Mehmet the Conqueror, after continually defeating his father Murad.

Good for him, he was a hero, and I'm not trying to deny it, but direct answer to my question would be :"He wasn't a king. He didnt have a kingdom." ?

Originally Posted by Shqype

Again, I don't claim a city to be Albanian only on population. That is only an element of it. Alone it doesn't mean much.

Well you sounded earlier like it was the only relevant matter.

Originally Posted by Shqype

I don't know about Banja Luka and Knin to comment effectively. I should not have spoken about those cities because I don't know about them.

I started posting in this topic mostly because of your comments in those 2 Serbian-mod-threads. To Serbs, some parts of Croatia, and (more) some parts of Bosnia are exatly the same thing as Kosovo to Albanians.

P.S.
Because you like demographic, here is one that represents Serbian population in SFR Yugoslavia(1981):

[ILIR THE GREAT]

Hey Serboguy, nice source...wikipedia where any body can edit and put whatever they want...Look what kind of website I found...Check Here

Serbs trying to erase Albanians from history since they entered the Balkans...

Look how Serbs were forcing Albanians out of Belgrade...
Genocide Against Albanians by the Serbians in Belgrade in 1912 - Photo taken by German Newspaper



And now you come here tryin to say that Ulqin or whatever is Serbian whereas the majority is Albanian and serbenized Albanians (according to Coon)
Look at this map...

Where is Serbia???

[Velja]

If you were few years older, so you could go to school, you would know that quote is truth.

Because you tried to prove me some things, I will be so kind myself.

Did you know that many historians believe that "Albanians" from Kosovo are actually islamized Serbs? :

The British renowned historian Harold Temperly had clearly pointed out that “the Mussulmanised Serbs, known as Arnauts, are the bitterest foes of the Serb”. Temperley was professor in Oxford and Cambridge, and in 1921, he was British representative in the Committee for the Albanian Borders. Numerous European authors and travel writers had recorded the process of gradual ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Old Serbia (Joseph Muller, Alexandar Gilferding, Victor Berar, Ivan B. Iastrebov and others).

Now, hear this:

The ethnic cleansing of the Serbs intensified particularly after the establishment of the Albanian League in Prizren in 1878, which had openly proclaimed the creation of the Great Albania as its main goal. The renowned European historian Konstantin Jirecek claimed that in the period 1878-1912 about 150,000 Orthodox Serbs were moved from Old Serbia to the central parts of the present Serbia (which had been the Kingdom of Serbia at that time. In spite of a massive violent oppression of the Serbs and their exodus from Kosovo and Metohija, the ratio of Serbs – Orthodox and Moslems and Albanians – mostly Moslems, was 50:50 hundred years ago. This process had been emphasized convincingly by H.N. Brailsford in his book “Macedonia”, written in 1905. He even stated that the Albanians “manifest a semi-feudal terrorism” towards the Slavs. The Austro-Hungarian Monarchy had also supported the penetration of Albanians into the Old Serbia at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century. The British researcher Laffan had noted: “The number of Albanians in Old Serbia was increasing, as they were supported and encouraged by Austria”. One should look at the ethnic map of Serbia which had been published in London in 1909 by Alfred Stead, showing that there were only a few ethnic Albanians in Kosovo and Metohija, and that most of them were “Albanized Serbs”.
Besides numerous Russian, French and other sources, this process had been treated in English diplomatic papers too. For example, Sir John Banham wrote to the marquis of Lansdown on May 7, 1901, that 40 Serbian families were obliged to emigrate to the Kingdom of Serbia due to the Albanian terror. Another English diplomat, Mr. Young, wrote to the marquis of Lansdown on September 9, 1901: “The Old Servia is still an area of disturbance owing to the lawlessness, vendettas and racial jealousies of the Albanians”. Young added in the same report that the oppression of the Serbian population continues and that 600 Albanians, with the help of 50 Turkish soldiers, “had reduced a village of 60 households to one quarter of that number”. Young’s report of December 1901 states that the Albanian terror from the spring to December resulted in the expulsion of 250 Serbian families to the Kingdom of Serbia.

Did you know what Bismarck claimed about Albanians? That there is no Albanian nation.


Here are some pics for you from WWII(from Kosovo):


Albanian Nazi's were specially brutal to the Serb Orthodox clergy
Murder of an Orthodox priest in Devic, WW2


Thousands of Serb homes were set on fire by Albanians during the WW2
A Serb house near Mitrovica burning

Miranda Vickers , "Between Serb and Albanian":

Until the first months of 1944 there were continued waves of migration from Kosovo of Serbs and Montenegrins,forced to flee following intimidation....TheÝ 21stSS ëSkanderbeg Divisioní (consisting, as already mentioned, of two battalions) formed out of Albanian volunteers in the spring of 1944, indiscriminately killed Serbs and Montenegrins in Kosovo. This led to the emigration of an estimated 10,000 Slav families, most of whom went to Serbia...replaced by new colonists from the poorer regions of northern Albania.

The Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal declared the Schutzstaffel or SS a criminal organization and every individual member of the SS was found to be a war criminal guilty of ìplanning and carrying out crimes against humanity.î The Albanian Kosovars in the 21st Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS ìSkanderbegî committed war crimes, crimes against humanity, and ethnic cleansing, and genocide against the Orthodox Serbian population of Kosovo.This genocide would contribute to the Kosovar goal and policy to create an ethnically pure Kosova, in a attempt to create a Greater Albania.

During World War II, the Axis powers dismembered and occupied Yugoslavia and created a Greater Albania by annexing Kosovo-Metohija to Albania. During the occupation of Kosovo-Metohija by Nazi Germany, Germany formed an Albanian Kosovar Waffen SS Division, the 21st Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS ìSkanderbegî which engaged in a policy of ethnic cleansing and genocide against the Orthodox Serbian population of Kosovo. The result was that with the Albanians, with the help of Germany, were able to either kill or drive out entire Serbian families and to round up and deport Kosovo Jews to the extermination camps, thereby creating during World War II an ethnically pure, Nazi German-sponsored Greater Albania.


Do I have to mention what happened 3 years ago?
200.000 Serbs were banished from Kosovo, their houses were burned tot he ground, so as medieval christian churches:




ruins of the Devic monastery


Completely levelled to the ground -The church of the Holy Virgin Mary in Djakovica with the burned parish home. Photo ERP KIM. A part of the church (a yellow wall) can still be seen on the photo. The latest information say that the municipality ordered the site to be turned into a parking place.




Photos of the Holy Virgin of Lyevish (14 th century) in which Albanian mob set fire and damaged the frescoes.

[deo]

God will this never end?

For more then a thousand years, Kosovo is Albanian, Kosovo is Serbian, Kosovo is Albanian, Kosovo is Serbian... Im realy happy that we will get our independence and we will care ourselves. Enough with this .

[Velja]

Originally Posted by deo

God will this never end?

I bet you wouldnt say that if I didnt respond to ILIR THE GREAT's post.

Originally Posted by deo

For more then a thousand years, Kosovo is Albanian, Kosovo is Serbian, Kosovo is Albanian, Kosovo is Serbian... Im realy happy that we will get our independence and we will care ourselves. Enough with this .

As you said, even if you get your independence, how long will it last before it becomes Serbian again?

P.S.
I can't remember Kosovo being Albanian anytime for last 1000 years, except few years during WWII, only Serbian and Ottoman. But, hay, if you are proud of your role in WWII, that's fine with me, it gives me better picture of you guys.

[Shqype]

Velja, that propaganda about Kosovars being Islamicized Serbs is simply untrue. The Serbs spread that lie to gain popular support from the European powers to get more Albanian land from them. Of course at that time only the Serbian point of view was taken into consideration, not the Albanian one.

Bismarck said there was no Albanian nation, that is correct. But what weight does that have? Absolutely none. It was also said that there was no such thing as the Italian nation, but that was obviously untrue.

P.S.
I find it hard for you to "remember" Kosova being anything for the last 1000 years since I highly doubt you lived during that time

[Velja]

Originally Posted by Shqype

Velja, that propaganda about Kosovars being Islamicized Serbs is simply untrue. The Serbs spread that lie to gain popular support from the European powers to get more Albanian land from them. Of course at that time only the Serbian point of view was taken into consideration, not the Albanian one.

Well that is untrue. Austria was always on Albanian side. Something else - I posted from independent, English source.

Originally Posted by Shqype

Bismarck said there was no Albanian nation, that is correct. But what weight does that have? Absolutely none. It was also said that there was no such thing as the Italian nation, but that was obviously untrue.

I know, that was just a provocation for a newbie, you don't have to ruin all the fun.

Originally Posted by Shqype

P.S.
I find it hard for you to "remember" Kosova being anything for the last 1000 years since I highly doubt you lived during that time

There is a nice thing called history, that teaches us what happened before we came to this world.

P.S.
Shqype, how do you like quotes from independent sources in my previous post?

[deo]

Originally Posted by Velja

I bet you wouldnt say that if I didnt respond to ILIR THE GREAT's post.

Bet what you want, i can reply to all that above but why should I?

Originally Posted by Velja

As you said, even if you get your independence, how long will it last before it becomes Serbian again?

Originally Posted by Velja

P.S.
I can't remember Kosovo being Albanian anytime for last 1000 years, except few years during WWII, only Serbian and Ottoman.

So what?

Originally Posted by Velja

But, hay, if you are proud of your role in WWII, that's fine with me, it gives me better picture of you guys.

It's a fact that our people were more in the side of the nazis than the allied but not fully, you dont know our history and dont know what we did during WWII, you present pictures about nazi albanians, so what? I can present you nazi serbians .

[Tunch Khan]

With all due respect, there is no such thing as Arnavuts (Albanians) being Islamized Serbs.

- Albanian is a completely distinct culture/language/nation.

- There is no such thing as the English being impartial, especially in the early 20th Century. Every European superpower had an interest to create their own satellite nations or use them against eachother, especially in the Balkans.

- Serbs have similar claims against Bosniaks as well, due to their language, but Bosniaks had their own Kingdom and a seperate religion long before the Ottoman invasion and so called "Islamization".

- Ottomans at no point had forced conversion to Islam except for their Janissary institution which is a strict exception, but is used to spread false information, such as forced conversion of Albanians and such.

- Contrary to public belief, Ottoman society was extremely tolerant and liberal when it came to religion and it was common for religious clerics of different sects/religions to debate about the benefits of each religion in front of public.

- Greeks even to this date claim there is no such thing as Turks within their borders, and that there is only Islamisized Greeks, or as they call "Mountain Greeks". The Greek government denies any claims of the presence of other ethnic identities in Greece other than Greek.

The only reason I talked about Greeks here is to show a similar behavioural pattern on how a dominant ethnicity in a country will try to supress the minorities. Turks had made the same mistake in calling Kurds as "mountain Turks" for a long while and we payed the price with increased violence. The conflict seems to be settling down today as Turkey gives more recognition and cultural rights to the Kurds as part of their ascension process towards the EU.

[Shqype]

Velja, I think your quotes are very biased and exxagerated. Yes, there was a Kosovar division of the SS, and it is entirely possible that some of them took matters into their own hands and committed atrocities. Unfortunately, that is the reality of war. But this is not something that was common amongst Albanians. In fact, it greatly defies the centuries-old code of Albanian law, to harm civilians. The Kosovars that joined the SS probably were grateful to the Germans for uniting their people (Kosova + Albania proper), plus, they had an excuse to fight their oppressors. It is understandable why they would join such a cause.

However, they did not set up concentrate camps to kill Jews or other minorities. They fought and killed their enemies. Albania is the only country in the world that saved 100% of the Jews there:

RESCUE IN ALBANIA: ONE HUNDRED PERCENT OF JEWS IN ALBANIA RESCUED FROM HOLOCAUST

This is written by a Jewish American commemorating the Albanians for saving the persecuted Jews that fled the Holocaust to Albania. The names of Christian and Muslim Albanians are inscribed on a monument in Israel in memory of those that saved Jews during the Holocaust.

Albanians risked their lives to save fellow human beings from massacre and genocide. Why? Because not only is such hospitality part of customary Albanian law, but because the Albanians themselves have been victims of genocide, at the hands of their Greek and Slavic neighbors.

Here is an excellent source, a book originally written by Leo Freundlich, entitled "Albania's Golgatha: Indictments of the Exterminators of the Albanian People."

From the section "Serbian Officers Boast About Their Heinous Deeds":

The Albanische Correspondent, received from Durazzo the following report:

The atrocities perpetrated by the Serbs against the Albanians are monstrous. Serbian officers boast about them quite freely. Serbian troops have committed dreadful acts, especially in Kossovo. Here, a Serbian officer reported this: The women hid their jewelry most of the time; they did not want to turn it over. In such cases, we would shoot a member of the household and the whole jewelry was produced at once. The Serbs proceeded in a particularly frightful way in the district of Ljuma. Men were burned alive; old people, women and children were murdered. In Kruja, Skanderbeg's birthplace, a number of men and women were simply shot dead and a great number of houses burned down.

The Serbian commander, Captain Petrovic, published an ukas by which he made these shameful crimes officially known. In Tirana, many Albanians were sentenced to be thrashed. These unfortunate people were beaten so hard by the Serbian soldiers that they eventually died.

In Kavaja and Elbasan, people were, likewise, officially beaten to death. A well-known, decent and wealthy gentleman, son of a Turkish Colonel, was shot dead in Durazzo. The Serbian commander proclaimed later, by means of an announcement posted on the wall, that the man killed was accused of larceny and sentenced to death. The Serbs destroy Catholic churches; they claim that they are Austrian buildings and must be done away with. The population is harassed by Serbian soldiers and officers day and night.

Not too long ago, a Serbian soldier was found murdered. At once, five Albanians who were not guilty of the murder, were caught by the Serbian command and shot dead.

This is part of the introduction of that document:

Spoiler:

In March, 1878, the Russians imposed the Treaty of San Stefano on vanquished Turkey. The Treaty of Berlin, which was signed in July of that same year, modified some of the decisions dictated in San Stefano, but remained favorable to the Slavic populations in the Balkans while ignoring the rights of the non-Slavs, i.e., of the Albanians.

Montenegro, Russia's protégé, was granted state Autonomy1 and allotted territories which were nominally under Turkish rule but whose population was Albanian: the rich valleys of Plava and Gusigne, the Albanian strongholds of Hoti and Gruda, and also the seaport of Ulcin.2

The see of a Catholic bishopric from 877 to 1560, Ulcin had practically never been under Slavic rule. Its population was 95% Albanian.3 The Albanians defended it heroically, just as they had defended all the other regions allotted to Montenegro by the Great Powers. However, the Great Powers eventually intervened using naval and military forces and they handed over Ulcin to Montenegro.

As a result of the Treaty of Berlin, Serbia, which already had state autonomy, was enlarged. The aggrandizement of her territory was also made possible at the expense of the Albanians, who inhabited the towns granted to her, namely Kurshumlija, Leskovac, Vranja, Toplica and Nish.

Bismarck applied to Albania the exact words once used by Metternich in regard to Italy at a time when Austria was opposed to the creation of the Italian state: "Albania," so the Prussian statesman declared, "is merely a geographic expression; there is no Albanian nation."

The Treaty of Berlin became synonymous with injustice for the Albanians who were deeply saddened not only because they were not granted state autonomy like the other Balkan nations under Turkish rule, but also because territories inhabited by their co-national were allotted to neighboring states. The decisions reached in Berlin in 1878 marked the beginning of a long Albanian tragedy, a tragedy to which there seems to be no end.

*****

As soon as the ceded territories were occupied by the Serbs, the Albanians were submitted to a treatment described as "cruel" by foreign diplomats.4 Tens of thousands of them were eventually forced to evacuate places, where their ancestors had lived for generations, in a very brutal way and without receiving the slightest compensation for their losses. The evacuated regions were subsequently colonized by the Serbs within a short period of time.

The Serbs, however, were not satisfied with the annexation of these territories to their state. They were bent on enlarging their domain even further. They were watching for an opportunity to get hold of other portions of land inhabited by Albanians. The Greeks and the Montenegrins were also on the watch; they too intended to enlarge further their states at Albania's expense.

*****

It must be pointed out that when the Balkans were under Turkish rule, the so-called "Albanian territories" were vast. They comprised (see map) the vilayets (provinces) of Janinë, Manastir, Shkodër (Scutari) and Sbkup.

The Albanians, fearful that the superpowers might decide to cede to neighboring states other sections of their land, rebelled uninterruptedly against the Turks in the hope of winning state autonomy. Their frequent insurrections weakened considerably the position of the Turks in Europe.

In 1912, the Turks were so enfeebled that when the Albanians captured Shkup (Uskub, Skopje) and Manastir (Monastir, Bitolje), they granted them state autonomy within the vilayets of Shkodër, Janinë, Kosovë and parts of Manastir. The extreme weakness of the Turks became thus evident. It was at that time that Serbia decided to declare war on Turkey. The declaration was made two days after King Peter of Serbia had issued the manifesto, "To the Serbian People," in which he asserted that he was going to wage a 'holy war' in order to bring to the Balkan nations freedom, brotherhood and equality.

As it turned out, the Turks were even more exhausted than they appeared to be; in fact, instead of opposing a strong resistance to the Serbian army, they decided to retreat. Those who resisted the Serbs were practically only the Albanians, for it did not take them a long time to understand what the so-called 'holy war' was all about: the Serbs were merely intent on conquering Albanian territories.

The Albanians, having no state of their own, had no regular army; a few weapons here and there, that was all they possessed. As a result, it was relatively easy for the well-equipped Serbian troops to advance despite the opposition encountered. Thus the Albanian cities fell one after the other; Prishtina on October 22, 1912; then Ferizaj and Shkup. Prizren was taken on November 3; Gjakova (Djakovica) on November 4 and Manastir (Bitolje) on November 20.

However, the capture of these cities did not appease Serbia's hunger for conquest, for the age-old dream of the Serbs has been to have access to the sea; they coveted the seashores of Albania. The project to create a state extending to the Adriatic which would comprise all of the southern Slavs but where the Serbs intended to be the sole rulers, may be traced as far back as the eighteenth century. This project was very much alive among the Serbs at the beginning of the twentieth century. However, the Adriatic seashores inhabited by the southern Slavs could be included in the future state only after the destruction of the Austro-Hungarian Empire to which these territories belonged. The destruction of this empire was thus urgent. The presence of the Albanians on the Adriatic was also undesirable and had to be eliminated. Was not Montenegro given Albanian seaports? Why not Serbia?

Consequently, Serbia made preparations for the expedition of her troops to the Adriatic. The Serbs decided to proceed through Luma (Ljuma). In this region, the Albanians opposed a heroic resistance to the Serbian troops, but lacking arms, they were eventually overpowered by them. The capture of Luma greatly facilitated the advance of the Serbian army toward the Adriatic.

On November 28, 1912, the Albanians, alarmed by these events, proclaimed their independence in the southern seaport of Vlora (Valona). Playing no heed to this proclamation, the Serbo-Montenegrins continued their aggression. Durrës was captured on November 29, and shortly after, Elbasan was taken. The Serbs committed unspeakable murders and also burned and destroyed everything wherever they went. The ceasefire, eventually enforced by the Great Powers and accepted by the Serbs, was expected to last from December 3, 1912 until February 13, 1913, but was broken several times by the Serbian army.

Declaration of the Independence of Albania in Vlore on November 28, 1912.

*****

Although the Albanians had no allies to plead for them, the Great Powers decided that the Albanian problem should nonetheless be discussed. To this effect a meeting, known as the Ambassadors' Conference, was held in London on December 17, 1912.

Here, it was agreed that Albania should be recognized as an autonomous state. Serbia accepted the decision reached at the Conference, but she did everything in her power to prevent it from becoming a reality.

But, of course, regarding the ethnic Albanians, which have lived in what was known as the former Yugoslavia for centuries upon centuries, the best source would be to read KOSOVA: The Albanians in Yugoslavia in light of historical documents.

This uses facts, and historical documents, to disprove Serbian myth and falsehoods which have manifested themselves in the ultranationalist Serbian thought. It will clarify many things and is a very, very interesting read. I would hope that you read it, and all others interested in history, to learn many things

[dinamo_18]

@Velja
I think that all MOD makers should stick with the present day borders. The Croatian MOD doesnt include cities like Mostar because its not part of Croatia. And I can see why you would want to make Knin part of Serbia but that city was also the anccient capital of Croatia under King Tomislav.

@Shqype
What no special relationship between Albania and Turkey??? Didnt they just recently sign an agreement on Turkey helping out the Albanian army??? I'm pretty sure they did.

About Hitler giving Kosovo to Albania is not true because Albania and Kosovo were under Italian control just like Jadran, Montenegro and Greek coast. You are right about the SS division of Albania, but if there were as many Muslims in Europe back in 1940's as there is now particularly in Germany, I'm pretty sure Hitler would round them up as well will all the other Jews, Gypsies,etc.

As far as I can remember it was the Albanians who after Tito died imediately asked for a Republic. So when you didnt get it did you then start beating on the Serbs in Kosovo? Hungarians never asked for their own Republic as far as I can recall. An Albanian Republic has not place in a country of southern slavs.

[ILIR THE GREAT]

The Albanians are the Illyrians therefore Kosova was and is legitimately ours! Thanks!

As far as I can remember it was the Albanians who after Tito died imediately asked for a Republic. So when you didnt get it did you then start beating on the Serbs in Kosovo? Hungarians never asked for their own Republic as far as I can recall. An Albanian Republic has not place in a country of southern slavs.

Maybe in your dreams not, but the last time I checked, Kosova is close to Independence!

Did you know what Bismarck claimed about Albanians? That there is no Albanian nation.

Oh but there is, and soon there will be another one...And that is why Bismarck is outdated and BS since he didn't know anything about those arnauts that were under the ottoman empire that's why they didn't have a nation yet - reason under ottoman empire control!