SGOTM 10 - Xteam

[Mistfit]

And here's hoping the Barbarians are as wretched as the AI are at tactics.

Gyathaar is good but I don't think he reprogrammed the game (I hope)

I think we should think on which Civ will be best suited to be a partner in Tech and possibly fighting around the time of Navagation. I do not think the Incans fit in either of those catagories

[leif erikson]

Originally Posted by scoutsout

Seriously... as nice as it would be to have all these allies to fight the Barbarians, I suspect we're going to need to whack somebody to get some land to grow our empire.

And here's hoping the Barbarians are as wretched as the AI are at tactics.

Yes, I think we have some whacking to do as well. The more I think about it, the more I am coming to the conclusion that I would rather control the production of those cities than trust the AI to do so!

While Gyathaar is cunning, I don't think even he could improve the AI's tactics enough to matter; unless he gave them far superior units!

The question now, for me, is how are we going up the tech tree. Warmonger, Republic slingshot, The Great Lighthouse, Lit for early Libraries, or something else? At emperor, how doable is Republic slingshot?

[Sir Bugsy]

Originally Posted by Capt Buttkick

Like leif, my only concern is with mining the game (if that's what the worker is doing)?

Yeah, messed that up.

I like the idea of eliminating everyone but the barbs so they can't get any techs. That is a tall order though. The AI are racing ahead in techs.

scout is right. Combined arms will be the only way to defeat the barbs.

[scoutsout]

Originally Posted by leif erikson

The question now, for me, is how are we going up the tech tree.

Warmonger, Republic slingshot, The Great Lighthouse, Lit for early Libraries, or something else? At emperor, how doable is Republic slingshot? The slingshot is doable at emperor... but the problem is that if you miss it, you're hung out. Against 'normal' AI... I've got no problem clawing my way back into a missed republic slingshot... but this is a different game.

I think Mistfit has an insight here. If we can pick the time we fight the "Barbarians"... sometime around the mid-middle ages might be in order. Assuming Education negates the tech thieving 20 shield wonder... that should be the first real chance we have to pick up 'critical mass' on them.

[Capt Buttkick]

If we agree that we need Nav to get to another continent to kill the barbs, then I think fast research should be our prime goal. Nav is a long way away...

I don't know about the rest of you, but if I build GLib for myself, I research slower than I would without it. If this was SP, I'd try the Rep slingshot. We've got decent income from the capitol and the AI has a good deal of research to do before Philo (usually, at the least, IW, Myst, Maths and Maps).

[leif erikson]

Originally Posted by scoutsout

I think Mistfit has an insight here. If we can pick the time we fight the "Barbarians"... sometime around the mid-middle ages might be in order. Assuming Education negates the tech thieving 20 shield wonder... that should be the first real chance we have to pick up 'critical mass' on them.

Yes, if we can get to them? If we must have Caravels or Galleons to transport troops to engage them, then we can do that only at the tail end of the middle ages, depending on their tech rate. Scout, your point concerning the Tech Thievery is a good one, perhaps it ends when Education is learned, but if not, then we have to dominate our side of the pond.

It looks like this is another of those "two objective" type of games. The first is fast research and domination of our continent. I think we agree that if we must attack the Barb Nation over a body of water, we can expect little help from the AI, except in tech development, maybe.

Second objective is to defeat the Barb Nation as quickly as possible. To me, that means caravels and cavalry, and plenty of the latter. Hopefully, we'll have the resources. The best way to achieve quick victory with Cavs is to have a good income and cut the saltpeter, produce horses, and upgrade them to cavs. Then have a ship chain set up to move them quickly to wherever we need them. Some Cannons and Muskets to defend what we take may be needed, but I'm more for pillage and city destruction once we get "over there".

[Mistfit]

1.) Will Caravels allow us to get into the ocean? Do we know this for sure or will we need Frigates/Man-o-wars to do this? If it were me creating this senario and I chose the English to be played I would make it impossible to get to the barbs without your UU. But I suppose that is just my devious mind. But if we need to get all the way to Magnets we may consider keeping a research partner or 2.

2.) Do not assume that Education negates the Barbs Tech Thief thingy as I doubt it does. IIRC someone mentioned that one of their units requires Salt so IMHO if I were making the senario again I would not give the player a chance to eliminate one of their units before it could be built.

[leif erikson]

Originally Posted by Mistfit

1.) Will Caravels allow us to get into the ocean? Do we know this for sure or will we need Frigates/Man-o-wars to do this? If it were me creating this senario and I chose the English to be played I would make it impossible to get to the barbs without your UU. But I suppose that is just my devious mind. But if we need to get all the way to Magnets we may consider keeping a research partner or 2.

Iirc, Navigation allows ocean travel for Caravels. Genrally, I do not go there but instead go straight to Magnatism, which allows Galleons as they carry 4 units instead of 3. But this may be a case in which we want to go to Navigation as it is a few turns faster to do so.

Originally Posted by Mistfit

2.) Do not assume that Education negates the Barbs Tech Thief thingy as I doubt it does. IIRC someone mentioned that one of their units requires Salt so IMHO if I were making the senario again I would not give the player a chance to eliminate one of their units before it could be built.

I decided to ask about this in the maintenance thread. We'll see if we get any response? My post is here.

The Barbarian Guard unit requires saltpeter. But for all we know, they may have started with it!

[WillowBrook]

This game reminds me vaguely of a CivII alien invasion of earth scenario. The aliens/barbs have amazing cities and wierd, scary units. I couldn't win that scenario on higher difficulty levels.

I think, whatever the characteristics of the Tech Theives (one or two civs, expire at education or not), fast research has to be our first goal as this is a fastest-finish competition. And whacking enough neighbors to allow us to expand to the point where corruption cuts off production too much certainly makes sense - we'll need control of as many troops as possible.

Good luck with your turns, Gator!

P.S.: dreamlog entry two
I was being pulled upstream in an innertube, a very rocky stream, probably man-made. And possibly on another planet. It was some sort of competition, and apparently my role was one no one else wanted, even though it was much easier than the puller's. All I had to do was keep my legs from getting bashed on the rocks.

And then (I think in a completely separate dream) there were the circles,
two-dimensional, black lines
mostly circles, overlapping,
some too big to be seen all at once,
with few straight lines as well.
The regions formed were colored white and beige,
like a checker board but with curved lines.
Surreal.

[DJMGator13]

There are 2 scientific civs in the game (BYZ and SUM) so they should be able to help with the techs. If nothing but the free age change techs.

I'll play after dinner tonight. Should have something posted later tonight.

[scoutsout]

I dunno if any of you guys are following the discussion in the maintenance thread...but Abgeweit apparently stumbled into something he called "The Sword of Damocles"...

...or somethin' like that. Anyway, it sounds like Gythaar tossed something into the game that'll make things dicey right from the start.

Knowing my luck, whatever it is will be one tile into the fog when 'gator hands it off.

[WillowBrook]

Someone posted earlier about a barb unit in the civolopedia with enslavement abilities, right? I wonder if that's it....

[scoutsout]

I remember reading about some sort of Pirate ship that can enslave... But we need to be careful how much we take from the civilopedia. From what I've gathered, the information may or may not be accurate. Unit abilities (A/D/M and B/R/F) will be coded in... and can't be disguised.

I'm looking forward to finding out if I can see over the edge of the hole I am already in. My guess is that we've got some pretty tough sledding ahead of us.

[Mistfit]

Would you have it any other way?

[leif erikson]

Yes I have been following it. This afternoon I PM'ed Gator and asked him to read the maintenance thread before he played so he could have an eye out for whatever this doomsday thing may be.

The edge of the foxhole may be be tougher to see out of if we dig in too deep for protection. I think Abegweit's reference to the sword is from this story:

____There once was a king whose name was Dionysius. He was so unjust and cruel that he won himself the name of tyrant. He knew that almost everybody hated him, and so he was always in dread lest some one should take his life.
____But he was very rich, and he lived in a fine palace where there were many beautiful and costly things, and he was waited upon by a host of servants who were always ready to do his bidding. One day a friend of his, whose name was Damocles, said to him -
____"How happy you must be! You have here everything that any man could wish."
____"Perhaps you would like to trade places with me," said the tyrant.
____"No, not that, O king!" said Damocles; "but I think that, if I could only have your riches and your pleasures for one day, I should not want any greater happiness."
____"Very well," said the tyrant. "You shall have them."
____And so, the next day, Damocles was led into the palace, and all the servants were bidden to treat him as their master. He sat down at a table in the banquet hall, and rich foods were placed before him. Nothing was wanting that could give him pleasure. There were costly wines, and beautiful flowers, and rare perfumes, and delightful music. He rested among soft cushions, and felt that he was the happiest man in all the world.
____Then he chanced to raise his eyes toward the ceiling. What was it that was dnagling above him, with it's point almost touching his head? It was a sharp sword, and it was hung by only a single horsehair. What if the hair should break? There was danger every moment that it would do so.
____The smile faded from the lips of Damocles. His face became very pale. His hands trembled. He wanted no more food; he could drink no more wine; he took no more delight in the music. He longed to be out of the palace, and away, he cared not where.
____"What is the matter?" said the tyrant.
____"That sword! That sword!" cried Damocles. He was so badly frightened that he dared not move.
____"Yes," said Dionysius, "I know there is a sword above your head, and that it may fall at any moment. But why should that trouble you? I have a sword over my head all the time. I am every moment in dread lest something may cause me to lose my life."
____"Let me go," said Damocles. "I now see that I was mistaken, and that the rich and powerful are not so happy as they seem. Let me go back to my old home in the poor little cottage amon the mountains."

Let us not be paralyzed by the fear of this thing!

[DJMGator13]

Sunday night: loaded game to make sure I had the right resources mod, checked out the civlopedia - exited without saving, posted to thread

Ready to play Tuesday night

preturn 2550BC
stop Worker1 which is mining (3 turns) he's still active so I start irrigating
since we only need 3 shields for the curragh, I mm off the game and forest and onto the fish and oyster adding 1fpt and 3bpt, Writing in 8 not 11

IBT - 3 Mayan warriors move
London curragh => warrior
Dutch start Colossus

Turn 31 - 2510BC
Worker2 starts mining the river grass
Curragh2 NW W
Warrior1 (exploring) NW to mt
Curragh1 E S S
mm off oyster back to game

IBT - low treasury

Turn 32 - 2470BC
London size 5 - mm new citizen off forest onto oyster, the extra commerce fixes the happiness issue and warrior still due next turn

Curragh1 SE S S
warrior1 W
Curragh2 N NW NW

IBT - London warrior => settler

Turn 33 - 2430BC
mm off oyster back to forest, growth in 2 settler in 5

I wish we had a little more money - we have 7 gold and are losing 3 a turn, forced top lower sci to 50% still at -1gpt, I'll readjust after the settler completes

Curragh2 NW W
warrior1 S
curragh1 E SE S

IBT - BYZ & INCA building Oracle
Then this happens:



WOW - production in London is sabotaged (only 3 shields in the box instead of 6)

Turn 34 - 2390BC
game is irrigated
trying to max shields - off fish to mGrass for the extra shield, leaving the forest open for growth next turn

Worker1 NE NE to other river grass
curragh2 W SW
warrior1 S
curragh1 S S

Turn 35 - 2350BC
London size 6 - mm off of wheat, create a taxman while keeping all shields, settler in 2 at -1fpt (we have 12 in box at +9spt) and +0gpt
Dutch curragh is in the way so Curragh1 moves SE SE W
warrior1 S
worker1 mines
curragh2 SW S

Turn 36 - 2310BC
curragh2 S SE
warrior1 SE
curragh1 SE S SW

IBT - London settler => settler
MAYA building pyramids

Turn 37 - 2270BC
factory is off cycle due to my starving, need 12 food to refill granary, running at max food
worker2 roads
warrior2 and settler SE E
curragh2 S S E
warrior1 S
curragh1 S S SW
forced to drop sci to 40% back to +0gpt, settler reaches spot in 2 more turns

IBT - AI's learn some techs - MATH & IW are learned and traded between a few AI's, not us

Turn 38 - 2230BC
curragh2 S E
warrior2 & settler E
warrior1 E
curragh1 S S

London's granary is OK now, so I mm back for shields for a turn, we're at -2gpt with 5 in the bank

Turn 39 - 2190BC
curragh1 S SW W
warrior1 E
curragh2 S SE E
warrior2 & settler N

down to 3 in the bank but I'll be founding a city next turn

IBT - Dutch ask curragh1 to move

Turn 40 - 2150BC
London back to size 5
mm off mGrass back to fish, settler still in 2 with growth bonus, the extra commerce keeps us happy
we should squeeze out another warrior after this settler for MP duty, should help puts on a 5-7 4 turn factory after that

worker2 joins worker1
curragh2 S SE E
warrior1 E
curragh1 W N

I left the warrior and settler unmoved - I was planning on settling on the river plain to allow growth w/o aqueduct

Almost completed the loop around our continent no sign of the Barb Nation yet

The save

[Sir Bugsy]

I would place even money that the Barb GL never expires.

I also agree that our UU will be key to getting across. Doesn't our UU enslave as well? I think our tech path once we get to the MA needs to be a bee-line to Men O' War. Then we'll worry about cavs.

As for our AA tech path, I think we need to think military. Good thing I started us out with writing

[leif erikson]

Looks like you found the bogey man, production sabotage by our sophisticated neighborhood barbs?

Gyathaar seems to have given them a few extra talents...

[leif erikson]

Originally Posted by Sir Bugsy

I also agree that our UU will be key to getting across. Doesn't our UU enslave as well? I think our tech path once we get to the MA needs to be a bee-line to Men O' War. Then we'll worry about cavs.

As for our AA tech path, I think we need to think military. Good thing I started us out with writing

Writing leads to Lit, which the AI seldom researches and can be used for trade bait to try and catch up. As long as they trade all the techs around, it makes them cheaper for us.

The question is what wonders we think we need, like Great Lighthouse, or not. The only one I'd really like to try and get is Leo's, for the Cav production through resource cutting. However, the ideal may be to have our neighbors build some of these wonders and we can then snatch them?

[Sir Bugsy]

Sabotage! Gythaar is really setting us up for a tough opponent. I think we really need to start thinking out of the box. Something tells me that the barbs will have a very large continent to build up without any opposition.

What do they have that they can sabotage our builds this early? I think we need to go through the civilopedia and find anything out of place.