Design: Features and Terrain

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

The Fellowship of Leaves is an instant and most likely long lasting hit.........Kilmorph at Higher levels maybe Mountain Raising at Borders and control of Pass formation.........I know it is foreboding and what I am about to add is even more so..........good religion alliances beyond the realm of mortals........like during Apocalypse......Mountains rise to protect ancient forests and right after golems recieve vitae...An Alliance is formed to Banish the Evil.....earthquakes planetwide........mortals and their civilizations find the importance of not only their religious faith but how they treat those of other faiths because when push comes to shove the Big Dogs (I mean gods) ..Pack up together and if the mortals don't like it then there are other consequences........."Like a thousand pardons Temples of Kilomorph" and simutaneosly "A thousand pardons Temple of Leaves"and together",We had no idea that your most powerful one was a friend of ours and now unless we help you ours won't help us anymore........The poor elves surrounded by mountains they cannot pass and frustrated dwarves that keep having their resources eaten up by randomly spawning Ancient Forests......
.........anyway the mountain Idea for Kilmorph was the original idea after considering the neatness of the Ancient Forests then I jumped to Cataclysm and thought.....How would the gods react to those that treated their followers well/poorly and if they were at a respectable toward other divine beings how would the regard the intollerance or acceptance of others by their followers and their fellows........if in the end it had Dramatic Real World effects it would be quite impressive if not a little disturbing like the Homer and all of the Great Myths...............All from thinking about terrain and what you have already done......later I've gotta a game to catch with MadBrad..............I'm Playing dwarves again that randomizer can really pick em

[Nikis-Knight]

The following sort of touches on improvements, civs, and resources. Maybe too much to change at this point, but some ideas could be cherry-picked.

How about having unique workers with different selections of improvements for each racial group?
If captured, they would retain their abilities (as planned for next version anyway) but are slaves, with workrate at 75% or 50%. the down side of this system is that it limits some player choices, but only until you capture or have gifted workers of other tribes.

Humans-most civs. As is
Elves
Cannot build farms or workshops. Have the following unique improvements:
Elven village: buildable only in forrests/ancient forrests. Same as normal cottage-> village improvements, except grows at half speed.
Tree Herder: Only buildable in forrests/ancient forrest. + food. Does not require irragation, but doesn't increase with sanitation.
Elven Workshop: Built on planes; -1 food, +1 production, chance of discovering mana. If this happens, destroys workshop.

Elves would thus have less health resources, but wouldn't need it if they had enough forrests aroung thier cities. Otherwise similar to now, but villages grow slower because they already have the forrest/ancient forrest hammer bonus.

Dwarves
Cannot build cottages. Have the following unique improvements:
Underhome: Only built on hills. Act as cottages->villages, but can also access hill resources as if they were mines (without the mine hammer bonus of course), give units stationed on them an extra 5-10% defense per level (cottage type 5, hamlet 10, etc.) Chance of discovering gems, gold, etc.
Terrace Farm: Built on hills, act as farms including spreading irrigation.
Build roads twice as fast.

Orc-Barb & clans of Ember
Cannot build lumber mills or villages (their cottages won't upgrade all the way.) Have the following unique improvements:
Gatherer's Hut: Only buildible on jungle. If jungle is chopped, GH also destroyed. Doesn't provide resources. +1 food, + production.

Gives orcs an even better early start, but a bit of a penalty later.

Cherub Worker-Elohim & Basium
Trained 2X fast. cannot build cottages. Upgrades at Religious law to Seraph Worker, train normal, build hamlets instead of cottages.

Not sure of this one, wanted them to have something special but I don't think this is it.

Infernals--don't build workers. Slaves work at normal/faster? speed. Imps can build normal improvements at half speed.

[Chalid]

@Nikis-Knight:

We have discussed some days ago that we want captured workers to stay as they were before capturing, so a captured elven worker can built in forest and so on. Its just a matter of time till it will be included. And yes we do want to differentiate the workers further (not all but some) so your proposals are very welcome.

[Gaebril]

Here are a few more ideas to pile on top of what Nikis-Knight suggested:

Elven workers:
Can build forest paths. Allows Fellowship of Leaves or elves 1/2 movement cost to move across (specialized roads for them only). Can only be built in forest tiles.
Can't build regular roads.

Dwarven workers:
Can build tunnels (underground roads for dwarves). Can only be used by civ controlling that tile or those with open border agreements. 1/2 movement for dwarves or other "underground loving" races. 1 movement all others. Can be built on mountain tiles?
Can't build regular roads.
Can build underground grotto, creates a +1 food, +1 hammer in a tile. Maybe a small chance to discover reagents or some such. Buildable only on Mountain and hill tiles.
Search for new mine - can use a special action to try and discover a new resource on a tile. Have the worker spend X turns inactive on a tile trying to determine if there is a resource hidden (random 10% chance of discovering a mineable resource).

Human workers:
Build roads at 2x speed.



Here's a different suggestion for higher difficulty levels:
Have the resources be degraded over time. Mines deplete the resource over time (stone quarry runs out of quality stone, copper mine runs dry). This could be a reverse of the cottage clock, possibly even random in duration. May have to increase the chance of discovering another resource (see dwarven worker above).

Thats all for now,
Gaebril

[Kael]

Originally Posted by Gaebril

Here are a few more ideas to pile on top of what Nikis-Knight suggested:

Elven workers:
Can build forest paths. Allows Fellowship of Leaves or elves 1/2 movement cost to move across (specialized roads for them only). Can only be built in forest tiles.
Can't build regular roads.

I actually pitched this same idea a few weeks ago to the design team. The end result after we talked about it was that we would have to add a lot to do it and in the end it just wasnt worth the small amount of flavor it would add. It was better to just increase the elves movement in forests (enemy and their own) and give them a bit of a boost when they defend in or attack into forests. Which is out current plan.

Dwarven workers:
Can build tunnels (underground roads for dwarves). Can only be used by civ controlling that tile or those with open border agreements. 1/2 movement for dwarves or other "underground loving" races. 1 movement all others. Can be built on mountain tiles?
Can't build regular roads.
Can build underground grotto, creates a +1 food, +1 hammer in a tile. Maybe a small chance to discover reagents or some such. Buildable only on Mountain and hill tiles.
Search for new mine - can use a special action to try and discover a new resource on a tile. Have the worker spend X turns inactive on a tile trying to determine if there is a resource hidden (random 10% chance of discovering a mineable resource).

As for the tunnels, the underground is so hard to involve at a strategic layer. The dilema tunnels brings us to is why can a above ground unit attack a unit thats traveling through a tunnel? As soon as we introduce a pseudo-underground mechanic we will expose a lot of situation that dont make sense.

But I dont have any problem with undergorund themed buildings and improvements (improvements are a bit harder to implement because the AI doesnt do a good job of picking what to improve where).

Human workers:
Build roads at 2x speed.

Here's a different suggestion for higher difficulty levels:
Have the resources be degraded over time. Mines deplete the resource over time (stone quarry runs out of quality stone, copper mine runs dry). This could be a reverse of the cottage clock, possibly even random in duration. May have to increase the chance of discovering another resource (see dwarven worker above).

Thats all for now,
Gaebril

Ive played the old versions of civ where resources appear and dissapear, I always thought it was a design mistake. In my opinion, randomness detracts from a strategy game and players should be presented with clear, predictable goals which they can build short and long term plans around. Planning a major war around gaining a resource only to have it disseapper while the war is going on or shortly after it is gained isn't fun. Losing the game because your iron resource dissappears just as a war begins isn't fun.

[Xereq]

Originally Posted by Kael

As for the tunnels, the underground is so hard to involve at a strategic layer. The dilema tunnels brings us to is why can a above ground unit attack a unit thats traveling through a tunnel? As soon as we introduce a pseudo-underground mechanic we will expose a lot of situation that dont make sense.

You could call them tunnel networks, describe them as a series of shallow, man sized tunnels that mainly just bypass high roads to make travel easier for those who know them, but are labarinth to those unused to travel underground as they branch out into dead ends. Enemy units can attack units within the tunnels, but defenders get a 20% bonus as they A have the hometurf advantage and B tunnels force attackers to come to the defenders. You could also make deep tunnels that Kilmorph units can hide in, Which allows them to effectivly become invisible while immoble in a deep tunneled square. This would allow for ambushes, as emeny units could unknowingly pass over deep units or head toward a square with hidden deep units, but as be ambushed by them as soon as thier backs are turned. You could do something similar with fellowship of leaves for forests. Deep forest routes could conceal legions of the fellowships best raiders, ready to strike and then dissapear back into the wood

But I dont have any problem with undergorund themed buildings and improvements (improvements are a bit harder to implement because the AI doesnt do a good job of picking what to improve where).

what about mighty mountain strongholds improved forts that can only be built on hills. Also dwarven Underhill dwellings that expand to stone grottos that expand to Undermountain halls

Ive played the old versions of civ where resources appear and dissapear, I always thought it was a design mistake. In my opinion, randomness detracts from a strategy game and players should be presented with clear, predictable goals which they can build short and long term plans around. Planning a major war around gaining a resource only to have it disseapper while the war is going on or shortly after it is gained isn't fun. Losing the game because your iron resource dissappears just as a war begins isn't fun.

Yes but it also allowed for civilizations to play catchup when a source of iron suddenly appeared when they had none before

[Corlindale]

Yes but it also allowed for civilizations to play catchup when a source of iron suddenly appeared when they had none before

But that feature already exists in the game.

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

The tunnel system could be implemented from vanillla methods renamed probrably if Obsidian gates uses railroad tech then what about another tech for travel that allows for unstoppable travel and surprise attacks even it on a gameplay level it "looks" like something else from vanilla Maybe make Tunnel Dwarf based on Airdrop or some other airborne unit....just because it is airborne in vanilla doesn't mean it will nessisarally be that way in FfH2.

Airborne units would have a slightly better method of seeing some underground terrain changes if elven or something because of the way surfacke terrain an plant life is affected.............these are just role playing aids to describe the getting around diffficult program mechanic.....The dwarves could just as easily be invisible anyway with these methods and I don't think it should be just for dwarves either, dark elves and maybe infernals and ,gods forbid, probrably orcs........anyway loop de loop......

.....Giant Eagles plummetting from High above to drag the dwarf it hears out of his "safe" little tunnel just like a rabbit out of a hole........"who would have thought the god of the sky really does hate dwarves and has sent his servants for me while within the bosom of OUR MOTHER....." where his last thoughts beford being cast along another fate.

An airborne transport unit could be modified to transport other units through tunnel a tunnel guide if you will on map tunnels like roads are not fesible at this time as discussed on several threads......but cavern and tunnels could be expansive enough to require a unit and that can change things if one where to modify air units to sybolize underground units......definitely outside the box but it "could" be possible without messing to much with the AI and map mechanics.....Even if air units (some of them) get bonus against them if they are angels or something so be it......another great terrain disregarder would be a unicorn unit for good only alignments and I have a world unit in mind on that note too........I don't know if tunnelling could work as a promotion unless you modified airdrop promaotions for it....if that would even work........you see there are game mechanic issues and the team has alot of posts that seem to give a lot of repeat....so please read the other threads because they like the ideas about tunnels and dwarves ect...but unless your offering program suggestions on how to prevent bog or contradiction and roleplaying suggestions too and bug reporting then......you aren't the only frustrated person working on the issue........I ask this respectively readers because kinks in systems and this one especially is something we are all for getting past.............Thanx

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

PIT Trap: After Hell opens up these randomly spawned or randomly open/Closed switch effected area drops some poor passing bastard into Hell..........(music for which the first 3 bars from Ring of Fire by Jonny Cash would be great!) Maybe it could be something constructed by Veil later in game. and a little sign in a ring shape on the outside of the pit stating: Abandon All hope Ye who enter here..In latin that would also be a nice touch.

[hanspe]

in civs wich adopted overlords some kind of waterplant (seatang)could spawn like the ancient forsts at the followers. only on coast and sea tiles but in all conected sea tiles even so its not overlord controlled (the spreading just starts in a overlord controlled terretory, workboats could be able to build a kind of tang farm.

[Zuul]

New terrain: swamp, mountain, (and wasteland as others said), holy ground.

Feature: cave/hole, giant grass, mangrove, cliff/canyon (like a river that is impassable).

Also add healing rate to all terrains/features. Should be harder to heal in desert/swamp/ice, and easier on farms and forrests and such.

[Kael]

Originally Posted by Zuul

New terrain: swamp, mountain, (and wasteland as others said), holy ground.

Feature: cave/hole, giant grass, mangrove, cliff/canyon (like a river that is impassable).

Also add healing rate to all terrains/features. Should be harder to heal in desert/swamp/ice, and easier on farms and forrests and such.

Heya Zuul, havent head from you in a while. We ended up using your light/heavy promotion concept for golems and it works great.

We probably wont play much with terrains until "Fire". When we introduce hell we will really be pushing to come up with some clever flavor/function terrains to represent that unholyiest of places. As we do that we may make some changes to the earthly terrains as well, but I wanted hell to get first crack at the creative ideas.

[hanspe]

in civs wich adopted overlords some kind of waterplant (seatang)could spawn like the ancient forsts at the followers. only on coast and sea tiles but in all conected sea tiles even so its not overlord controlled (the spreading just starts in a overlord controlled terretory, workboats could be able to build a kind of tang farm. the tang gives a food+1 and prod.+1. ships wich are not overlord get a movment penalty (half movment) in the tang , when a ship sinks in a tank tile there is a small prozentage that a drown apeers in controll of the tile owner, it dosent matter whos ship sunk there,overlord ships get a little defense bounus.thats just a idee for balance issus, may its to hard do develop

[Zuul]

Hi Kael. Yea I was away from civ4 for 3 months or so. But now Im back playing and as addicted as ever .
Nice that you like the heavylight promotion concept. I got some futher ideas on promotions for FoH. But I will take them in the correct thread.

[Maniac]

How would you feel about adding a route type, named Hidden Path, which is built automatically together with the elven farm/cottage/pasture..., starts with 120 iMovement, but gets -90 iMovementChange with the Hidden Paths tech and another -10 with Commune with Nature or something? Result would be that other civ units with the Commando promotion but without Hidden Paths tech couldn't rush through elven forests. The Elves would keep their home advantage. It would fit with the idea of ancient forests as mysterious and impregnable.

One could do a similar thing for Dwarves or Runes religious civs in general. With the Arete tech, add a new worker order which builds a mine together with a new route type called "Underground Tunnels". Likewise they could start with 120 iMovement and only give -90 with Arete (and another -10 with some other mining/metal related tech).

[Chandrasekhar]

I very much agree with Chalid's ideas (edit: the ones on page one specifically), and also with Arcadian's. Suffice to say that any disagreement I have with them is minor and disregardable. Of course, we still should have a further balance so that the elves aren't the only ones that can be Fellowship effectively.

I propose making it so that the Ljosalfar can't chop down forests when they're Fellowship, or at least face unhappiness or even rebellion penalties for doing so. After all, they are dealing with a double dose of treehuggery and such. Balance does seem to be needed here.

[Oldfrt]

Just had an idea.. dont know if its been suggested before.

Given the land is recovering from the time of ice, then it is logical that over time that the land will "recover" from the weight of the ice and rise (specifically low coastal areas). This would have the effect of coastal tiles becoming land-locked (effectively destroying the harbour) - but giving more land to develop on. (was thinking about Harlech in Wales - the castle is now 2+ miles from the sea, yet was built with its own harbour...).

An opposite effect would be collapsing of land into the sea/destruction of terrain on a permanant basis.

Could each tile have a base chance +/- for it rising/falling (including sea/ocean)? Then over time you can convert it from land/sea/ocean or ocean/sea/land.

Imagine.... your lovely city on that beautiful flood plane, with its gleaming temples, markets and libraries, sliding, slowly into the depths....

Atlantis all over again!

[khanjackal]

alpha centauri had that, but it also had a building that would let a city survive underwater, the pressure dome

a fantasy equivalent, maybe something like "airy water" or something, or "arcane dome" that would allow it or something

but as far as i know, i haven't seen a mod that allowed deep sea mining, so i'm not sure if it would even be worth looking into

[Nikis-Knight]

I think that would work either as an armeggedon spell or a scenario. Or at least have a toggle. Most people would be annoyed if they unexpectedly lost a city, or if all of a sudden they had no coastal cities! But it'd make an interesting scenario.

[AlazkanAssassin]

I also posted this in the Design: Improvements section but the idea could be related to this thread as well.

Arcane Road:

Roads that are actually shorter if you walk on them properly through arcane means.

"...with that said, we'll be taking the Mage's Path to Enaillellion today. For those who've never used it before, be careful not to step off the road or loose the runes that our company Adept is passing out to you.
If you do you may never catch up to us. And you'll catch hell from me if you do." - Hamallandel, Amurite Commander.

Replaces Vanilla Railroads
Looks like a normal road, but a little bit different. Darker, Streighter, glittering if possible.

Randomly created by map script to exist on fresh world as ruins of the Age of Magic
Near those anchient temples and watchtowers preferably.

Initially provides the normal 2x movment of roads,
But once you understand the magic of it with Alteration
it provides 4x (5x?) movement

Buildable with Strength of Will & Mithril Working & enchantment mana & takes a long time to build.
Some limit to them so they cannot be spammed would be good as well.