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Old May 28, 2001, 09:15 AM   #1
PROMETHEUS_TS
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Post culture units

ok for units of a particular hera but this could lead to a unbalanced game? for ex if in the 2nd world war the panzer unit is the strongest one how could the other nations do ?
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Old May 28, 2001, 09:52 AM   #2
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outnumber their foe by having prevailed in earlier eras!
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Old May 28, 2001, 10:30 AM   #3
BlueMonday
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I think that will be the great challenge of the new game. Every civ will have to utilize its special unit. While the Germans are building panzers, the Americans will have to build f-15 to deal with them. But the Problem I have with the whole civ specific units deal is: What about Rome? They won't have a special unit in that era. How are they going to deal with Panzer tanks?

AHHHHHHH! I just figured it out! Allow civs like that to buy F-15s from the Americans.

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Old May 28, 2001, 10:19 PM   #4
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BlueMonday, I suspect you're right on the money! But we'll just have to wait and see, anyway I don't think the introduction of Civ specific units will have the dire consequences for game play that some people think - as long as it's done in a balanced way. What it may require is some innovative new approaches, such as you suggest.
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Old May 29, 2001, 12:20 AM   #5
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I think you are wrong Blue Monday...why would american f-15 be concerned with panzers???

Panzers are from an earlier era...if you plan to use legions vs panzers then fine...but if rome I'd prevail in the era of legions and so have a GREATER empire so when the panzer era arrives I'll be bigger than the germans having succeded earlier in history at grabbing land and cities.
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Old May 29, 2001, 02:12 AM   #6
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And I myself would be to busy to marvel at all the news things to even ponder something along the lines of strategy... At least the two, three first games...

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Old May 29, 2001, 03:58 AM   #7
PROMETHEUS_TS
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and what if you don't want to play with culture units but you would like to face indian panzers and japaneese legions i personally think that is limitative and to be honest iu think that this should be an option completely choosable by the player!! for example enable everyone to have particular units for each era.

example Roman time

romans legions
Parthians horse archers
Numidians numidian cavalry
Cartaginians elephants
greeks macedonian phalanx
celts briton's chariot

or modern era

americans f 15
russians mig
european tornado

and in the end why not completely custom units created by us???
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Old May 29, 2001, 07:20 AM   #8
Matrix
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I still think it's a bad decision to have specific units. All strategy games like Command & Conquer, Red Alert, Tiberian Sun, Dune 2000, Warcraft (II), but also Aplha Centauri - to me they're all examples that a diffenent and balanced range of certain units for different players is <u>a contradiction in terms</u>!

I think this impossibility, so to speak, comes by the fact that the balance will shift by the level of the opponents. I mean: the balance for two good players will be different from the balance for two bad players. Usually the balance swifts more as the players get better.

Whenever I played these games with my brother (and we have done that a lot!), we were always the same type of players, because otherwise there was always a player in advantage to the other. That's why we love to play Civ2 against each other. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/wink.gif" border=0> (also because we're not good in Civ2 as we are in e.g. Warcraft II)

I sincerely hope Sid Meier and his team will decide not to use specific units. And if they do, I strongly recommend to implement an option which can disable that by allowing everyone to build the same units (including or excluding the specific ones; I don't care).

But I fear the decision has already been made. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/frown.gif" border=0>

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Old May 29, 2001, 08:01 AM   #9
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Indeed, Matrix, the creation of character/civilization specific advantages (like special units) create an unbalanced game. Whether or not this has a negative impact on the gameplay remains to be seen. I can imagine that the inclusion of specific units can lead to very interesting games in single player mode.

Multi player games are a different story... I don't think it's a good idea to include special advantages for multi player mode, thus: create the possibility of disabling those special units.
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Old May 29, 2001, 12:45 PM   #10
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As was stated in the PC.IGN's Civ3 Preview Update: Part II thread each of the 16 civs will have a special unit for each era. So in the Industrialized era Americans will have F-15s, Germans will have Panzers, and the Romans will have something else. It will be great the way it all works together when it comes out. I know it will because Sid Mier is the mastermind behind it all, making sure it all flows together in a well balanced way.

At this point we have only a small peek of how the game will be, but just because we can't see the whole picture doesn't mean the picture won't be whole.

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Old May 29, 2001, 05:18 PM   #11
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Another balance issue that was noted in another thread is that not only are Roman legions going to do poorly against modern units, they will also dominate the game for a shorter amount of time. (This is, of course, provided that Firaxis keeps the cascading time units system [20 years per turn, then 10, 5, and so on])

I think BlueMonday's onto something with being able to buy modern units from modern civs... but that might lead to an element of monopolization, and still skews balance... but it's certainly a good idea.

The use of "build up a big empire while you have the advantage" would work in terms of controlling these modern units, but diplomacy amongst other players could very well make things difficult. ("Oh look, the Roman has legions - let's gang up on him and knock him out before he gets too big")

One thing that strikes me (and might be the path to a solution!) is that the super-units seem to have no real downsides. One answer that comes to mind is to give each super-unit a marked economic or social downside that matches its military upside.

An example of this is the Greek hoplite. The hoplites were actually composed of farmers who had made enough money to get bronze and maintain their own militia. If the Greeks can have hoplites, they should also be put at a social disadvantage when they go to war; perhaps a percentage of the population could be removed for each hoplite until it returns home, etc.

There is probably at least one downside for every upside, and that may be the solution to overpowering super-units.

What's everyone else's take on this?

-GJ
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Old May 29, 2001, 05:42 PM   #12
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GJ, your idea makes sense, however the problem I have with it is why just apply that logic to Civ specific units (except to balance the supposed advantage - we don't really know what advantage there will be). Surely what you say using the example of the Greek Hoplite, would apply to many units in the game. As I said, I do think your idea makes sense and should extend beyond just Civ specific units - although I can see that those players more inclined to the military aspects of Civ would probably not like this.
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Old May 29, 2001, 06:01 PM   #13
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Certainly the idea could be applied to other units - not just the civ-specific ones. I was thinking in terms of balance.

As for military players... well... with all due respect, take a hike.

More seriously, military players are going to have to figure out a way to support themselves through the disadvantages. Farmer-hoplites might take 1/3 of a city's population... but many cities of size 4-8 supporting one hoplite each could actually fund a pretty good army.

I'm thinking that to further the interests of balance the upkeep cost for super-units might be lowered should the penalties for having them be too drastic. (Maybe that's going a touch too far.)

-GJ
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Old May 30, 2001, 02:44 AM   #14
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I like matrix idea of an option to switch off the unic civ units. It would satisfy both those who wants them and those who doesnt.

And if there will be a special unit for every civ for every age theres a big chance that the Romans modern unit will be the Alpin Troopers.

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Old May 30, 2001, 05:36 AM   #15
PROMETHEUS_TS
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for everyone
I invite each of you from different country to write down a list of a special units for each of your country or favorite civs for each era just for fun in the new topic "Special units"
They could be different even only in name and shape for example an indian war elephant could be different from a cartaginian one ............
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