The Kuriotates

[Chalid]

Originally Posted by woodelf

So Centaurs, satyrs, mermaids, hawkmen, (is there a snake/human mix?).

Yes and a usually really bad one.. Nagas...

[woodelf]

Originally Posted by Chalid

Yes and a usually really bad one.. Nagas...

Thanks. I couldn't recall the name. They are awesome!

[loki1232]

I think that the elohim would do more with trade routes, because i think of them as a more outwards looking culture.

I think that the improvements will be their economic advantage, and perhaps the man/animals will specialize in archery, because as Kael said we already have a lot of melee/spellcaster specialist civs.

[woodelf]

Do we have a Ballista model? That would be a nice siege weapon for them.

[loki1232]

Originally Posted by woodelf

Do we have a Ballista model? That would be a nice siege weapon for them.

Yeah, that would be nice. What if they also got a trebuchet as a late-game siege weapon? I think it fits their flavor nicely.

So should we start putting together a list of some new units for them?

[Corlindale]

Cardith Lorda is Creative and Philosophical, same as Perpentach. Perhaps that could indicate that the Kuriotates would also be focused somewhat on the cultural/entertainment aspect of civilization, but in a less evil way than the Balseraphs(and we certainly wouldn't want to steal their flavour). I can imagine stuff like tourneys or faires, knights in sparkling armour, dancers and singers. Something like Lord Renly and the people of Highgarden, if anyone here's ever read A Song of Ice and Fire. The most carefree and high-spirited of the good civilizations, but not adverse to combat when it comes to protecting their lands, like the Elohim are.

For example, they could have "The Tourney" as a National Wonder. This wonder is quite special, because when it is built it only lasts for 10 turns(maybe 20). After that its effects(and it) disappear from the city, but that frees it up to be built elsewhere, so it can move around in your empire.
Its effects could be something like this.
+4 xp for new melee and mounted units in this city
No in this city
+50%
-25% (people won't get much work done)

Perhaps enable training of special unique units during the tourney, or randomly spawn some. Like the Champion unit, which might be a unit of random type with a fairly low icombat but with the Hero promotion.

Something like that might also work for the Balseraphs, who could have the travelling "Carnival of Shadows" instead. Its effect should be a bit different, though.

[Kael]

Originally Posted by Corlindale

Cardith Lorda is Creative and Philosophical, same as Perpentach. Perhaps that could indicate that the Kuriotates would also be focused somewhat on the cultural/entertainment aspect of civilization, but in a less evil way than the Balseraphs(and we certainly wouldn't want to steal their flavour). I can imagine stuff like tourneys or faires, knights in sparkling armour, dancers and singers. Something like Lord Renly and the people of Highgarden, if anyone here's ever read A Song of Ice and Fire. The most carefree and high-spirited of the good civilizations, but not adverse to combat when it comes to protecting their lands, like the Elohim are.

For example, they could have "The Tourney" as a National Wonder. This wonder is quite special, because when it is built it only lasts for 10 turns(maybe 20). After that its effects(and it) disappear from the city, but that frees it up to be built elsewhere, so it can move around in your empire.
Its effects could be something like this.
+4 xp for new melee and mounted units in this city
No in this city
+50%
-25% (people won't get much work done)

Perhaps enable training of special unique units during the tourney, or randomly spawn some. Like the Champion unit, which might be a unit of random type with a fairly low icombat but with the Hero promotion.

Something like that might also work for the Balseraphs, who could have the travelling "Carnival of Shadows" instead. Its effect should be a bit different, though.

Thats a mistake, Cardith should be Expansive and Philosophical.

I really like the idea of a traveling wonder. Im going to have to think about how to do it but I agree there is a potential to have some really neat effects from them.

[loki1232]

Originally Posted by Corlindale

Cardith Lorda is Creative and Philosophical, same as Perpentach. Perhaps that could indicate that the Kuriotates would also be focused somewhat on the cultural/entertainment aspect of civilization, but in a less evil way than the Balseraphs(and we certainly wouldn't want to steal their flavour). I can imagine stuff like tourneys or faires, knights in sparkling armour, dancers and singers. Something like Lord Renly and the people of Highgarden, if anyone here's ever read A Song of Ice and Fire. The most carefree and high-spirited of the good civilizations, but not adverse to combat when it comes to protecting their lands, like the Elohim are.

For example, they could have "The Tourney" as a National Wonder. This wonder is quite special, because when it is built it only lasts for 10 turns(maybe 20). After that its effects(and it) disappear from the city, but that frees it up to be built elsewhere, so it can move around in your empire.
Its effects could be something like this.
+4 xp for new melee and mounted units in this city
No in this city
+50%
-25% (people won't get much work done)

Perhaps enable training of special unique units during the tourney, or randomly spawn some. Like the Champion unit, which might be a unit of random type with a fairly low icombat but with the Hero promotion.

Something like that might also work for the Balseraphs, who could have the travelling "Carnival of Shadows" instead. Its effect should be a bit different, though.

Nice idea. Yeah, i see the connection between them and highgarden. However, i think that the Kuriotates are more good than highgarden.

I also really like the champion idea. Or what if the effect of the tourney was to give a random unit in the city "elite". This would be a mini heroic-give XP until 50. It could only be given to a unit with less than 50 XP.

[loki1232]

I have an idea about the other races being a big part of the Kuriotates.

Basically there would be around seven other races, and they would all replace various parts of the Kuriotates unit tree.

Races:
Naga-Replace the dark recon units(assassin, shadow, saboteur)
Centaurs-Replace most of the cavalry units(horseman, chariot, war chariot, war elephant. For these use the stats, not the idea of a centaur on an elephant.)
Eaglefolk-Replace the rest of the cavalry units(horse archer, camel archer, knight)
Giant Wurms (the guys from Magic)-Replace the siege weapons. Warious large worms. These guys will have greater normal strength and less bombardment strength than normal siege weapons.
Satyrs-Replace some archer units(longbowman, flurry, marksman)

Merfolk-Replace the combat naval units. This includes water spellcasters. They do not replace naval transport.
Giant Turtles-You guessed it, they replace naval transport ships.(these two races will not work until we have a more complex naval system)

How does this work?
there would be multiple "centaur units". Normal units would not be upgradeable to them and they would not be upgradable to other races. For example, a scout could upgrade to a hunter but not a centaur horseman. Then that hunter could upgrade to a ranger but not a naga assassin.

What do you all think?

[Kael]

Originally Posted by loki1232

I have an idea about the other races being a big part of the Kuriotates.

Basically there would be around seven other races, and they would all replace various parts of the Kuriotates unit tree.

Races:
Naga-Replace the dark recon units(assassin, shadow, saboteur)
Centaurs-Replace most of the cavalry units(horseman, chariot, war chariot, war elephant. For these use the stats, not the idea of a centaur on an elephant.)
Eaglefolk-Replace the rest of the cavalry units(horse archer, camel archer, knight)
Giant Wurms (the guys from Magic)-Replace the siege weapons. Warious large worms. These guys will have greater normal strength and less bombardment strength than normal siege weapons.
Satyrs-Replace some archer units(longbowman, flurry, marksman)

Merfolk-Replace the combat naval units. This includes water spellcasters. They do not replace naval transport.
Giant Turtles-You guessed it, they replace naval transport ships.(these two races will not work until we have a more complex naval system)

How does this work?
there would be multiple "centaur units". Normal units would not be upgradeable to them and they would not be upgradable to other races. For example, a scout could upgrade to a hunter but not a centaur horseman. Then that hunter could upgrade to a ranger but not a naga assassin.

What do you all think?

Thats a lot of art resources tied up in one civ. I would rather spread out units like this instead of spending so much of the art teams time on them only to have it wasted in games without the kuriotates in it.

I would love the units, but we need to do more with less.

[loki1232]

BOO! Oh well. Perhaps later once we get more available art?

Other ideas:
1. The kuriotates get +1 food, hammer, or gold frome very tile producing 3 or more of that. If a tile is producing 3 or more in 2/3 categories, it gets bonuses in all of them.
2. Their leader gets three traits. This would be to symbolize his uberness.

[Kael]

Originally Posted by loki1232

BOO! Oh well. Perhaps later once we get more available art?

Other ideas:
1. The kuriotates get +1 food, hammer, or gold frome very tile producing 3 or more of that. If a tile is producing 3 or more in 2/3 categories, it gets bonuses in all of them.
2. Their leader gets three traits. This would be to symbolize his uberness.

I like the bonus trait idea to signify Cardith's uberness. What about a special trait, got any ideas?

[loki1232]

One that gives +1 food, hammer, or gold from every tile producing 3 or more of that. If a tile is producing 3 or more in 2/3 categories,

No just kidding.

Perhaps he should get a happiness bonus and a city growth bonus? NOt really sure i'll post more when i have an idea.

[woodelf]

Why not a Happiness bonus, like Expansive? +1 in all cities.

[Kael]

Originally Posted by wilboman

The Malakim are people, sure, but lead by an elf. The Kuriotates are people lead by other people.

Would an extra food on village and town tiles (in addition to common bonuses) vastly overpower them? It could mean huge and rich cities. Is there any way to cap the number of total cities they can have, making them a super-centralised civ? That would be a new playing style for some, and suit turtlers like me pretty well, just like the Hippus suit a conquering playing style...

I'm thinking something along the lines of ivory towers, great cities, totally urbanised areas around the cities, loads of specialists, but probably give them few units with high movement rates, and a lot of immobile (but strong) units. And I still kind of like the idea of a vaguely oriental feel to go with the dragon, it doesn't in any way have to be overpowering, just a slight oriental look to the art.

Yeah I agree with this, and an oriental feel is good as long as we dont go to strong (as much as I love Sez's ninja model we wont be able to use it).

[Kael]

Originally Posted by Corlindale

I like the idea of making the Kuriotates focused on super-centralisation, but I still don't think we should literally force players to do it through an artificial city limit. I think it would be better if we decreased the inclination to build many cities by for example:
1)Make their settlers much more expensive
2)Give their settlers just 1 movement
3)Increase Maintenance costs for large empires for the Kuriotates.

To give them some bonuses in the area of super-centralisation, perhaps the 2-per-city restriction on National Wonders could be lifted for them? Of course it might not be that big a deal, as there are relatively few of them in the game at the moment.

I think this is the answer. The way to make the Kuriotates play differently than everyone else. Limit their city growth but give them uber production in the cities they do have. Appeal to players who want to run a tiny country.

If we do this we will have to:

1. Make sure their culture is under control, we don't want them out running the culture civs.

2. Come up with a way to keep them from skipping the increased settler cost by just taking cities (and auto-raze doesnt seem to fit our anti-destruction civ). This will probably be increased maintenance costs.

3. Scale this mechanic based on the world size.

4. Using Chalids suggestion we give them upgradeable improvements to allow their few cities to become super productive.

5. We will have to do something about resource constraints for them (iron, mithril, reagents, etc) since they wont be able to get them through spread.

6. If this mechanic is used for them Cardith should probably become Industrious and Organized.

One question before we assign this mechanic to the kuriotates:

1. Would this mechanic be better suited to another civ (khazad)?

[Corlindale]

5. We will have to do something about resource constraints for them (iron, mithril, reagents, etc) since they wont be able to get them through spread.

Perhaps something like the colonies in Civ III? Takes twice as long to build as normal resource improvements, buildable outside civ borders.

[Chalid]

Originally Posted by Corlindale

Perhaps something like the colonies in Civ III? Takes twice as long to build as normal resource improvements, buildable outside civ borders.

Don't think that will help as otehr civs will get those reosurces into their cultural influence. Maybe we give their upgraded mines an increased chance to spawn metals? (But that would better fit for Khazad i think).

National wonders that provide those things? As they can only build few National wonders (not many cities) they would have to decide which ones they want. Or maybe some a exclusive.

[loki1232]

Originally Posted by Kael

One question before we assign this mechanic to the kuriotates:

1. Would this mechanic be better suited to another civ (khazad)?

I think it might fit the Khazad equally well, but we'll be able to think of something else for the Khazad instead. Like maybe in FfH the dwarves like to have sprawling empires.

[wilboman]

The mechanic would work well for the Khazad, but I still think we should be going for a more mountain-dependent feel for them, like making cities in mountainous or hilly regions their strongest cities and penalizing cities in the lowlands.

As for the resource problem: either eliminate resource requirements for certain key structures, or give loads of nation-specific small wonders that give these resources (mak'em expensive or perhaps project-based, to emphasise the "compact but powerful" idea). Or possibly make it much easier for the Kuriotates to trade for resources they need, perhaps by giving them a unique resource that is highly valued by the AI?