A newbish question

[phattonez]

Basically, I'm having trouble jumping from the Chieftain to Warlord level. The problem I'm having is that although I expand and spend a lot toward scientific research, I can never seem to keep up with other civs in terms of scientific progress. Since I spend a lot to support science research, I cannot grow militarily, and end up being one of the weakest civs every time. How can I reconcile military spending and scientific research spending?

[AutomatedTeller]

My guess, and it's just a guess, is that

A) You need to research differently
B) You need to build more roads.
C) You need to trade more

Building more roads (on tiles you work, of course) gives you more commerce, which translates into research.

Researching differently means researching vertically, rather than horizontally. While the AI often researches all the low-level techs, if you pick a line (and this is usually alphabet/writing/CoL/Philosophy, at first), you can usually end up with monopolies. With monopolies, you can trade for the techs you don't already start with.

Trading is key in the beginning and on higher levels. It's quite easy to get out of the AA only researching 5-9 techs - on warlord, those will likely end up being alpha/writing/col/philo/currency and maybe construction - maybe republic and literature, maybe math - once you get into the middle ages, you can pretty much out research the AI.

But making sure you are working roaded tiles is the key to research. If you want to self-research, road, road, road.

[phattonez]

I didn't know that working roaded tiles increased production. Thanks for that tip.

I've already tried trading techs, but I'll focus on that more.

[vmxa]

Roading does not increase production, it increse commerce. That is what pays for science and troops.
Get out of despotism quickly. Expand faster and have a worked tiles improved with a road and a mine or irrigation.

Reduce extraneous stuctures. IOW do not build everything you can as soon as you can. Make it pass a viability test to see if you need it now can afford it now.

[phattonez]

So should I change to wealth or to unit production?

[vmxa]

Wealth - used for corrupt towns that can not produce useful item in any useful timeframe. You can sometimes make workers or settlers from these town or bombardment units, else wealth. May go to wealth on special condition for short periods of time.

Early in the game you want to get settlers out and some workers. Only enough troops to keep the AI off your back. Exception is for warmongers and they know what to do alreay.

[phattonez]

Right now I have a lot of workers and my expansion has been decent. I'm using 90% of my tax revenue on scientific research, and I'm still lagging far behind everyone else. I used the tip, went straight for currency, but it took a LONG time, and now I can't trade anything and am stuck in ancient times while everyone else is in the middle ages. What did I do wrong?

[Son_Of_Dido]

Best way to get a quick and accurate answer to you question is to attach some save files to a post, ideally your beginning (4000bc) save, and a save from your most recent turn. (a save from a point inbetween your start and your present might help even more, too, but that probably isn't necessary)That'll let the civ experts around here get an idea of the particular quirks and details of the map you're playing on, etc. and get an idea for what sort of moves you've been making and such.

[phattonez]

I don't have the starting point save, but I do have the most recent save.

Btw, why do my citizens say that it is too crowded?

[Turner]

"It's too crowded" is the default unhappiness reason. I guess they felt they had to put something, and this was it.

[MAS]

OK, I looked at it:
First impression: wow, you actually made a healthy amount of workers! Good

But you should have made more settlers, The opening of the game is all about expansion, make lots of new cities, and place them closer together.

I advice you to NOT use accelerated production, it ruins the game balance. First learn how to play under normal conditions. Note that AP will work for both you and the AI, so you gain no advanage over the AI with this.
All that AP does in the end, is increase the amount of units that end up being build, so you will have to make more units yourself to counter that. so you will have to instruct more units when fighting a war, making the game more tidious and last longer in the end.
(and make sure the preference "always wait at the end of the turn" is on)

When building anything, think in terms of "return of investment."
A granary halves the food needed to make a city grow, A size 6 city is at its max size without an aquaduct, so a granary will gain you nothing in such a city, but it still cost shields to build and gold per turn upkeep. In fact, a granary is only really usefull in cities that pump settlers and workers, becouse these cities grow all the time.

A temple makes unhappy people content, this is good, but all you realy need is prevent a city from rioting. To prevent this you only need to make sure that the city has as much happy people as unhappy. (content and specialist don't matter) when a city is size 4, and you have 4 lux resources hooked up, and you play in warlord diffeculty where the first 3 people are born content anyway, building a temple gains you nothing. But you still have to pay upkeep and invest shields.
I usually don't make any temples at all in my games, lux resources, and the lux slider are all I need to keep the populus happy. Only when I failed to find enough lux resources will I build a temple, and only in large cities, becouse small cities need less happyness.

A courthouse will reduce corruption and waste by about 10-30% in cities that are not totally corrupt, and all numbers are rounded down. In a city that produces less than 3 corrupt shields/gold, the courthouse gains you nothing. But it still cost you shields, turns to build, and gold per turn upkeep.
Never build a courthouse in your capitol, (unless you revolt to communism) it is a complete waste.

Militairy units cost gold per turn upkeep aswell, so only make those if you actually need them for anything. When defending, go for less units, and fast moving offensive unis (horseman) Spearman are only usefull when the AI attacks it on his turn, but If you defend your land well, the AI shouldn't attack you on his turn, becouse you attack the AI on your turn before they reach your cities, making spearman useless. Fast moving units can move to where they are needed, so you don't need to give each city its own garrison.
If you build a large army, then you must use it to gain something, else it will be a waste of shields and gold per turn upkeep. If you don't plan to enconquer the AI civs, then don't make a large army.

Note also that the AI has more respect for units with a high offensive value, than for units with a high defensive value, (when they evaluate your power) offensive units will help you in diplomacy.

Worker moves:
Worker movement points are also bound to return of investment. First improve the land that has the biggest return of investment. make improvements that cost only a few worker moves to complete but gain you a lot over the course of the game. So first improve that grassland with a food bonus on it, do hills and mountains later, and jungle last. (well, unless there is great strategic importance in making a road through a jungle/mountain. )
Becouse you should be building settlers and workers at the BC turns, your cities will not grow past size 4 unitill later, so you only need to improve the most powerfull 4 tiles around each city and then move on to the next city. (But make sure all your citizens are working roaded tiles before switching to republic.)

[phattonez]

Thanks for all that advice. It will obviously save me a lot of money and help me early in the game.

So for the courthouse, about how many shields should a city produce before I am forced to make it?

[rysingsun]

Originally Posted by phattonez

So for the courthouse, about how many shields should a city produce before I am forced to make it?

just a rule of thumb, but i make very few courthouses before the industrial age. typically it is what i build after building a factory, because at that point the return on investment is much quicker.

many people don't build courthouses ever.

[Pyrite]

Do a cost benefit analysis, if you can save more shields then you think the gold per turn is worth, then build a courthouse. Courthouses will also reduce corruption (loss of gold) due to distance from the capital, so oftentimes you gain more money then you lost by the loss of money from upkeep.

[MAS]

Originally Posted by Pyrite

Do a cost benefit analysis, if you can save more shields then you think the gold per turn is worth, then build a courthouse. Courthouses will also reduce corruption (loss of gold) due to distance from the capital, so oftentimes you gain more money then you lost by the loss of money from upkeep.

And while a courthouse can gain you an amound of shields and gold per turn, and this amound may be worth the investment. But something else may gain you even more. Build what has the biggest return of investment first.

Also, don't think: "What can X do for this city?"
Instead think: "what can X-in-this-city do for my empire?"

[phattonez]

So I'm still playing this same game, and I've allianced myself with China and the Celts against Germany. I have 3 countries gracious towards me, one polite, and one furious. Korea built the United Nations, can only Korea call for a vote?

Or did I accidentaly turn off the option for a diplomatic victory?

[MAS]

As far as I know, you can't change victory conditions outside of game creation.
Not without messing up the safe with an editor anyway.

It is possible they called off the vote, if their reputation is ruined, there is not much reason for them to support a UN. You lucked out there, between human insight and prebuilding*, it shouldn't be possible for the AI to snatch the UN from the human player. Pay more attention to it in your next game.

To be in the UN if you haven't build it yourself, you need to have a very big population, so enconquer that german land and fill it with your cities, irigate everything and let them grow as big as possible. If the cities grow larger than the land they can work, the surplus citizens will be specialist, make them all scientist. (exept if you have dire need for a clown.)

But leave your most productive cities productive, so you can use those to build the spaceship, in case the UN isn't going to work. (or units, in case war breaks out)


(*prebuilding: the art of building the palace, or some world wonder, as a placeholder. Only to switch to an other project with the accumelated shields when you get acces to the tech that allows you to build the wonder you really wanted to build.)

[phattonez]

As it turned out, China and India progressed greatly in science, and surpassed me greatly. While I was still researching synthetic fibers, China had built it's spaceship and beat me.

I was working on developing some cities that I had conquered in Germany, but I just wasn't getting enough money to support scientific development. It came down to me not having enough money. I had traded a lot, but I just couldn't accumulate the money necessary to catch up to China and India.

I ended up in 3rd from last place. England had only one city, and the Mongols had almost no money, but I was close to Korea.

Anyway, hopefully I can learn from this game (that took 9 hours) so that I can win next time (and remember that this is only Warlord level).

[MAS]

The game is about exponential growth. Any move you make in an early turn, is amplyfied a 100 times at a later turn.

Focus on exponential growth at the start of the game, maximise food output every turn and build settlers and workers. When you just about settled all the freely availeble land, start building your offensive, enconquer your continent, and continue to build more cities. The more cities you have, the more people are working tiles, the bigger your cashflow.

If you want to play peacefull, start out the same way, fill the freely availeble land as fast as possible. First build outward, then build upward. (but know that war has the biggest return of investment, so you may want to learn how to be a warmongerer )

To help you with tech trading: research up the techtree!
I usually go alphabet -> writing -> code of law -> philosophy -> republic ->math -> currency
The AI will research the lower level tech first before going for a higher level tech, so if you go for the higher level one, you can then trade it for multiple lower level techs with the AI.

Good luck with your next try!

[phattonez]

Since I want to expand outward, what should I do to defend my cities and settlers from barbarians? I'm not interested in ancient war, usually, so I don't like building an army so early in the game. Should I have one warrior per city, or leave some cities defenseless to accompany settlers and explore?

Obviously I want some defense, but early in the game, I focus on production in my cities.