Negotiations with KISS- Industrial

killercane · Jul 21, 2006, 12:32 PM

Here is a proposed treaty from KISS. It looks to be a mirror image of the earlier one; I dont really like it. What do we want to add/subtract from it? Tech agreement is good, but I think we should have the freedom to enter war whenever we want and settle "our" land and not be limited to below Dancing Banana.

b]Extension of the Simpson Protocol[/b]

Within this treaty teams KISS and Doughnuts will be known as The Quick, while teams MIA and TNT will be known as The Dead

Land Division
Draw a line from Dynopolis to the coast on a NW axis thru Dancing Banana and also SE axis to the coast.

Military

-Peaceful relations are guaranteed between The Quick for the duration of this agreement.

- If either party initiates a war of aggression against the Dead, the other party is not obliged to enter. However, if a member of the Dead attacks either party of this agreement, the second party shall declare war within five turns and be engaged for the duration.

After such time that all three parties are involved in the conflict, peace negotiations shall require the agreement of both parties of the Quick. With "join forces" we mean an in-game declaration of war on the enemies of the alliance

-During the period of hostilities both parties would have a Right of Passage through the others territory. Any movement through each other's territory will be announced, including force composition, proposed path and ultimate destination. There would also be cooperation in military strategy.

-The Quick must seek permission to enter each others land borders. Sea borders can be entered without permission, however naval units must continue their movement with each turn unless permission is requested and received.

-Cooperation in the gathering of intelligence

Technology and Trading

-Cooperation in the advancement of technological research. By researching different technologies at the same time we can double the efficiency of our research.

-Technologies will be researched as such to maintain an equality of trade value.

-Technologies that are researched during this period may be exchanged with another nation as long as both parties consent to this. Any technology gained in return would be shared by both parties.

-Trade in luxuries and resources can be negotiated on an individual basis.

-Neither of The Quick may enter an agreement with any of The Dead that would adversely effect any of the conditions of this agreement.

Termination of the treaty

-When both MIA or TNT cease to exist.

-Any amendments to the treaty must be agreed to by both parties for it to take effect.

-If one of The Quick feels wronged by the other in reference to this agreement, and the wrong doing is confirmed by administrators, they are free to declare a one-sided termination of the agreement. This can apply to various parts, or the whole agreement.

Robi D · Jul 23, 2006, 08:51 AM

Look good to me, its pretty much the same as before

Emp. Killyouall · Jul 23, 2006, 10:31 AM

Get rid of the settle land below Dancing Banana, thats BS...

Aigburth · Jul 23, 2006, 12:09 PM

I don't think the Land settlement is too bad, it basically consigns KISS to the NE corner of the continent, pretty fair if KISS put more resources into the war than we did.

Aigburth · Jul 23, 2006, 12:20 PM

I believe the black line on the attachment represents the proposed border.

killercane · Jul 23, 2006, 06:34 PM

I suppose the land deal isnt too bad, I would want to put a caveat in there that we will get a chunk of MIA land should we set in on them.

I think we should outline a tech agreement. We should be industrial by turn 160 and our agreement with MIA ends at 177. That is about 2 techs in for us, maybe 3. Maybe do medicine while they do steam or vice versa.

I would like to get replaceable parts to make a landing on MIA or KISS or whoever. Dropping ten infantry by their capital in a surprise attack with our cavs. Just food for thought for 25 turns out or so.

What about the Communism idea? What about a long term peace deal to tie our hands should MIA start winning the war?

Robi D · Jul 23, 2006, 07:22 PM

I think the land deal is ok. Even if we left it as a free for all to settle the end you would end up with a similar outcome. At the end of the day we will control 80% of the continent and after railroads they are their as long as we want them there. Also while we are in a position to play MIA and KISS off against each other we can't do that to much, because if that's the case they will end up joining together to get rid of us. So if we don't want to pick a side then we should remain completely netural and let them take each other out.

dl123654 · Jul 23, 2006, 11:58 PM

Something i would like to see is if MIA is killed then us and KISS get our own island, all cities (or all but some number) on the others island must be gifted to the islands owners with trading of luxury resources to accomodate this so both teams have all 8. Not sure if KISS will accept something like this, but i would like to think we can take some of MIA land in the event of a war to compensate. This would allow for easier defense for both islands in case we do a space race, but still allow for military buildup if we consider some number higher then 0.

I would also like to see specifics on which techs will be traded and the involvement of MIA in the matter of techs. The reason is we have heard that MIA won't trade with KISS anymore but we still can. Therefore i propose that we (us and KISS) are allowed to trade with MIA freely on techs not involved and that tech doesn't have to be shared.

Finally, we should consider asking KISS about saltpeter and consider a trade if they don't have any (for considerable compensation of course). From what I can see on the map there are there are 2 saltpeters on our island on the same latatude on opposite sides. We have control of 1 and the other is within range of us. I believe these are the only two on our island to keep the game balanced. On their island MIA controls 1 from what we can see. The same lattitude on the opposite side would put the other saltpeter in a dark area inbetween KISS and MIA. and therefore I'm not sure who has it. Currently neither side has any hooked up so we should bring up saltpeter in a future chat after offically claiming the second on our island.

Not sure if KISS will go for the first and second and feel that the third should should be done outside the age treaty to give it more flexibility. Maybe if someone could word them better we might be able to pass one of these.

killercane · Jul 24, 2006, 07:52 AM

KISS and MIA both have one of the sources of saltpeter. We are the only ones with two sources.

Can someone reword something that will give us more flexibility and be acceptable to KISS? DL or Robi? I mentioned us each having our own continents should MIA be vanquished and they seemed amenable to that. That is far in the future however.

Robi D · Jul 24, 2006, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killercane

KISS and MIA both have one of the sources of saltpeter. We are the only ones with two sources.

Can someone reword something that will give us more flexibility and be acceptable to KISS? DL or Robi? I mentioned us each having our own continents should MIA be vanquished and they seemed amenable to that. That is far in the future however.

What part did you to be more flexible

killercane · Jul 24, 2006, 09:06 AM

- If either party initiates a war of aggression against the Dead, the other party is not obliged to enter. However, if a member of the Dead attacks either party of this agreement, the second party shall declare war within five turns and be engaged for the duration

And I was thinking that if we went ahead and agreed with KISS to be partners and eschew Communism/domination then we should agree to be friends for the remainder of the game.

dl123654 · Jul 24, 2006, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killercane

And I was thinking that if we went ahead and agreed with KISS to be partners and eschew Communism/domination then we should agree to be friends for the remainder of the game.

I think that this is not in the scope of a age long agreement, if they agree to it great but also consider that this could be a hollow promise, there is nothing binding them (or us) to following it.

killercane · Jul 24, 2006, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dl123654

I think that this is not in the scope of a age long agreement, if they agree to it great but also consider that this could be a hollow promise, there is nothing binding them (or us) to following it.

Well if we agreed to a space race or something, then they would be hard pressed to break it, especially if we add in a caveat that a team breaking the agreement has to do 15-20 anarchy turns as a penalty, enforceable by Ginger and Regentman.

Robi D · Jul 24, 2006, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killercane

Well if we agreed to a space race or something, then they would be hard pressed to break it, especially if we add in a caveat that a team breaking the agreement has to do 15-20 anarchy turns as a penalty, enforceable by Ginger and Regentman.

I don't know if they would except the anarchy thing. I guess we have to decide whether we want to lock ourselves into a space race against KISS. The thing is i doubt they would want to lock themselves into that now, i'm sure they would want to wait until MIA has disappeared and then to crunch the numbers on whats gives them a better shot at victory.

killercane · Jul 25, 2006, 04:34 AM

According to Whomp they are on board for a space race and no nukes. Maybe you can probe them for something official? I would just want some sort of penalty to keep either us or them getting some wise ideas. Our commercial trait should trump their religious trait and win us the race, even if they disband all military and switch to democracy (which they would have to research, 8 turns).

Robi D · Jul 25, 2006, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killercane

According to Whomp they are on board for a space race and no nukes. Maybe you can probe them for something official? I would just want some sort of penalty to keep either us or them getting some wise ideas. Our commercial trait should trump their religious trait and win us the race, even if they disband all military and switch to democracy (which they would have to research, 8 turns).

I will talk to Whomp about a penalty cause for breaking the agreement. How does a 10 turn warning + 10 turns of self imposed anarchy sound?

Also if we agree to no nukes then even building the manhatten project should be considered a violation.

killercane · Jul 25, 2006, 08:12 AM

Sounds good. We need to outline what techs we are going for some time soon.

Nobody · Jul 25, 2006, 03:44 PM

Can we add a part saying, that members should inform each other 5 turns before they declare war on any part of the other teams (just MIA really) It anoyed me that they began their police action against tnt without warning us.

Also i get the feeling that we are in the same position as the record company executive in the godfather "they leave with either our brains or our signiture on this treaty"

dl123654 · Jul 31, 2006, 05:05 AM

The Industrial Age will be here in 2 turns and I haven't heard anything about specific techs, not sure if KISS is in The Industrial Age yet but if we were to lay out what techs to research we should do so soon.

I went and figured out a proposed tech agreement.

Research cost for both sides are the same in both and we can take either side. This assumes that we will research none of the non required techs except for nationalism, KISS and us have about the same research rates, and we will get to The Industrial Age at the same time.

Proposed Tech Agreement:

Code:

TEAM 1   TEAM 2
Nat      SP
Med      Ele
Ind      RP
Cor      SM
Ref      AT
St       Ele
Com

Total for both teams 21600 beakers

Note that this doesn't have Flight, MT and MP because Combustion is a bottleneck and too many events could happen before we get there, therefore we can say that these will be traded later based on the situation using gold.

dl123654 · Aug 02, 2006, 10:47 PM

Want to sent KISS something before they play their turn, can someone read this and make sure there is no major errors or breaches in national security

Quote:

Gems have been sent (I think this my first multiplayer game), I'm hoping that you will send Dyes even know I have not seen any talk of them

Dancing Bananas will be handed over next turn

Because of a mistake on my part the Settler will be withdrawn next turn however I haven't been given an official word on what the land agreement is.

I made a proposed tech arrangement and posted it in our forums but no one has responded to it, I'm going to pass it along to you guys but again nothing offical or binding here:

Code:

TEAM 1   TEAM 2
Nat      SP
Med      Ele
Ind      RP
Cor      SM
Ref      AT
St       Ele
Com

Total for both teams 21600 beakers

The last three techs would be arranged when we get to them.

We will be in the Industrial Age in 2 turn (Turn 166) so we have to get this moving.

And finally MIA is making me nervous and have a boat off our coast

Jul 21, 2006, 12:32 PM	#1
killercane Deity Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: TN Posts: 3,278	Negotiations with KISS- Industrial Here is a proposed treaty from KISS. It looks to be a mirror image of the earlier one; I dont really like it. What do we want to add/subtract from it? Tech agreement is good, but I think we should have the freedom to enter war whenever we want and settle "our" land and not be limited to below Dancing Banana. b]Extension of the Simpson Protocol[/b] Within this treaty teams KISS and Doughnuts will be known as The Quick, while teams MIA and TNT will be known as The Dead Land Division Draw a line from Dynopolis to the coast on a NW axis thru Dancing Banana and also SE axis to the coast. Military -Peaceful relations are guaranteed between The Quick for the duration of this agreement. - If either party initiates a war of aggression against the Dead, the other party is not obliged to enter. However, if a member of the Dead attacks either party of this agreement, the second party shall declare war within five turns and be engaged for the duration. After such time that all three parties are involved in the conflict, peace negotiations shall require the agreement of both parties of the Quick. With "join forces" we mean an in-game declaration of war on the enemies of the alliance -During the period of hostilities both parties would have a Right of Passage through the others territory. Any movement through each other's territory will be announced, including force composition, proposed path and ultimate destination. There would also be cooperation in military strategy. -The Quick must seek permission to enter each others land borders. Sea borders can be entered without permission, however naval units must continue their movement with each turn unless permission is requested and received. -Cooperation in the gathering of intelligence Technology and Trading -Cooperation in the advancement of technological research. By researching different technologies at the same time we can double the efficiency of our research. -Technologies will be researched as such to maintain an equality of trade value. -Technologies that are researched during this period may be exchanged with another nation as long as both parties consent to this. Any technology gained in return would be shared by both parties. -Trade in luxuries and resources can be negotiated on an individual basis. -Neither of The Quick may enter an agreement with any of The Dead that would adversely effect any of the conditions of this agreement. Termination of the treaty -When both MIA or TNT cease to exist. -Any amendments to the treaty must be agreed to by both parties for it to take effect. -If one of The Quick feels wronged by the other in reference to this agreement, and the wrong doing is confirmed by administrators, they are free to declare a one-sided termination of the agreement. This can apply to various parts, or the whole agreement. __________________ Avatar courtesy of Mistfit

Jul 23, 2006, 08:51 AM	#2
Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 3,066	Look good to me, its pretty much the same as before __________________ "The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations." - David Friedman Robi D's Demographics Screen - Updated for BTS!

Jul 23, 2006, 12:20 PM	#5
Aigburth Sea Dog Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: London Posts: 727	I believe the black line on the attachment represents the proposed border. Attached Thumbnails

Jul 23, 2006, 06:34 PM	#6
killercane Deity Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: TN Posts: 3,278	I suppose the land deal isnt too bad, I would want to put a caveat in there that we will get a chunk of MIA land should we set in on them. I think we should outline a tech agreement. We should be industrial by turn 160 and our agreement with MIA ends at 177. That is about 2 techs in for us, maybe 3. Maybe do medicine while they do steam or vice versa. I would like to get replaceable parts to make a landing on MIA or KISS or whoever. Dropping ten infantry by their capital in a surprise attack with our cavs. Just food for thought for 25 turns out or so. What about the Communism idea? What about a long term peace deal to tie our hands should MIA start winning the war? __________________ Avatar courtesy of Mistfit

Jul 23, 2006, 07:22 PM	#7
Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 3,066	I think the land deal is ok. Even if we left it as a free for all to settle the end you would end up with a similar outcome. At the end of the day we will control 80% of the continent and after railroads they are their as long as we want them there. Also while we are in a position to play MIA and KISS off against each other we can't do that to much, because if that's the case they will end up joining together to get rid of us. So if we don't want to pick a side then we should remain completely netural and let them take each other out. __________________ "The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations." - David Friedman Robi D's Demographics Screen - Updated for BTS!

Jul 23, 2006, 10:31 AM	#3
Emp. Killyouall EVIL Emperor Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: On my computer Posts: 442	Get rid of the settle land below Dancing Banana, thats BS...

Jul 23, 2006, 12:09 PM	#4
Aigburth Sea Dog Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: London Posts: 727	I don't think the Land settlement is too bad, it basically consigns KISS to the NE corner of the continent, pretty fair if KISS put more resources into the war than we did.

Jul 23, 2006, 11:58 PM	#8
dl123654 King Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 965	Something i would like to see is if MIA is killed then us and KISS get our own island, all cities (or all but some number) on the others island must be gifted to the islands owners with trading of luxury resources to accomodate this so both teams have all 8. Not sure if KISS will accept something like this, but i would like to think we can take some of MIA land in the event of a war to compensate. This would allow for easier defense for both islands in case we do a space race, but still allow for military buildup if we consider some number higher then 0. I would also like to see specifics on which techs will be traded and the involvement of MIA in the matter of techs. The reason is we have heard that MIA won't trade with KISS anymore but we still can. Therefore i propose that we (us and KISS) are allowed to trade with MIA freely on techs not involved and that tech doesn't have to be shared. Finally, we should consider asking KISS about saltpeter and consider a trade if they don't have any (for considerable compensation of course). From what I can see on the map there are there are 2 saltpeters on our island on the same latatude on opposite sides. We have control of 1 and the other is within range of us. I believe these are the only two on our island to keep the game balanced. On their island MIA controls 1 from what we can see. The same lattitude on the opposite side would put the other saltpeter in a dark area inbetween KISS and MIA. and therefore I'm not sure who has it. Currently neither side has any hooked up so we should bring up saltpeter in a future chat after offically claiming the second on our island. Not sure if KISS will go for the first and second and feel that the third should should be done outside the age treaty to give it more flexibility. Maybe if someone could word them better we might be able to pass one of these.

Jul 24, 2006, 07:52 AM	#9
killercane Deity Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: TN Posts: 3,278	KISS and MIA both have one of the sources of saltpeter. We are the only ones with two sources. Can someone reword something that will give us more flexibility and be acceptable to KISS? DL or Robi? I mentioned us each having our own continents should MIA be vanquished and they seemed amenable to that. That is far in the future however. __________________ Avatar courtesy of Mistfit

Jul 24, 2006, 09:06 AM	#11
killercane Deity Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: TN Posts: 3,278	- If either party initiates a war of aggression against the Dead, the other party is not obliged to enter. However, if a member of the Dead attacks either party of this agreement, the second party shall declare war within five turns and be engaged for the duration And I was thinking that if we went ahead and agreed with KISS to be partners and eschew Communism/domination then we should agree to be friends for the remainder of the game. __________________ Avatar courtesy of Mistfit

Jul 25, 2006, 04:34 AM	#15
killercane Deity Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: TN Posts: 3,278	According to Whomp they are on board for a space race and no nukes. Maybe you can probe them for something official? I would just want some sort of penalty to keep either us or them getting some wise ideas. Our commercial trait should trump their religious trait and win us the race, even if they disband all military and switch to democracy (which they would have to research, 8 turns). __________________ Avatar courtesy of Mistfit Last edited by killercane; Jul 25, 2006 at 04:43 AM.

Jul 25, 2006, 08:12 AM	#17
killercane Deity Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: TN Posts: 3,278	Sounds good. We need to outline what techs we are going for some time soon. __________________ Avatar courtesy of Mistfit

Jul 25, 2006, 03:44 PM	#18
Nobody Gangster Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Wellington New Zealand Posts: 5,320	Can we add a part saying, that members should inform each other 5 turns before they declare war on any part of the other teams (just MIA really) It anoyed me that they began their police action against tnt without warning us. Also i get the feeling that we are in the same position as the record company executive in the godfather "they leave with either our brains or our signiture on this treaty" __________________ "I'm Proposition Joe. You steal from me, I'll kill your whole family. " - Proposition Joe

Jul 31, 2006, 05:05 AM	#19
dl123654 King Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 965	The Industrial Age will be here in 2 turns and I haven't heard anything about specific techs, not sure if KISS is in The Industrial Age yet but if we were to lay out what techs to research we should do so soon. I went and figured out a proposed tech agreement. Research cost for both sides are the same in both and we can take either side. This assumes that we will research none of the non required techs except for nationalism, KISS and us have about the same research rates, and we will get to The Industrial Age at the same time. Proposed Tech Agreement: Code: TEAM 1 TEAM 2 Nat SP Med Ele Ind RP Cor SM Ref AT St Ele Com Total for both teams 21600 beakers Note that this doesn't have Flight, MT and MP because Combustion is a bottleneck and too many events could happen before we get there, therefore we can say that these will be traded later based on the situation using gold.

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