Convert production into research or gold for faster research rate?

[bertram]

I was wondering about how I should choose between converting production into gold or research. It goes like this:

In e.g. my capital I have some turns to spend before I have something useful to build, so I decide to convert my production into either gold or research.

Now, which will be most effective in lowering the number of turns left to discover my next technology:

• Should I choose the gold which will make me more money so I can set a higher percentage, for instance raise it from 60% to 80% ?
  
• Or, should I choose to convert the production directly into beakers which will lower the # of turns left at the same 60% ?
  
  

[Beamup]

Generally you shouldn't do either. There should always be something useful to build. But if you must, do whichever one you have more multiplier buildings for in that city.

[cabert]

beamup is right

if you have a library and no market, build beakers
if you have a market and no library, build gold

If you want to win, build units.

[bertram]

Choosing to convert to science or gold can be useful in itself. It can be a priority to maximize e.g. your science output, in which converting can be helpful and rather effective.

Do you know if the converted amount of gold/beakers is added before or after multiplier buildings? How is treated?

If anyone has any calculations on the mechanics it would be interesting to see how it's constructed...

[bertram]

But what if you have both a market and a library?
Is the city's production converted first to commerce which is then turned into science/gold according to your %-levels, e.g 40% science/ 60% gold?

If a city produces 20 hammer, which is converted to 10 beakers - are they added to the sum of all your cities total beakers?

Forgive my curiosity. It's just that I have a city produce beakers/gold and I watch a reaction on the science rate or the treasury, and I'm wondering how it works... ;-)

[cabert]

the beakers/gold from production are just like those from specialists :
- no commerce multiplier (= no bureaucracy effect, on the other hand, bureaucracy affects the hammers )
- beakers/gold multiplier apply

the beakers are counted on a "per city" basis, then all beaker from all cities are added towards research.

If you've got both gold and science bonus, look carefully at the outputs, and micromanage it so that the 25% bonus don't lead to rounding down.

[bertram]

Originally Posted by cabert

If you've got both gold and science bonus, look carefully at the outputs, and micromanage it so that the 25% bonus don't lead to rounding down.

Could you elaborate on this "25% bonus don't lead to rounding down", may be with an example?

[Krikkitone]

OK general rule Isn't
1. what you have more of in the city, Research or Gold

2. what your Other cities don't have, Research or Gold

If this city has more Gold bonus than research bonus, you will get more gold
BUT
How much research gold is Worth depends on your other cities, If you have more Libraries than Markets, 1 Gold is worth more than 1 Flask (because a gain of 4 Gold allows you to divert 4 Commerce from Gold to Flasks and then into 5 Flasks, a net gain)

On the other hand if you have more Markets than Libraries, 1 Gold is worth Less than one Flask (5 Gold is needed for you to divert 4 commerce from Gold to Flasks)

General Rule: build Research, Unless you have more Gold multipliers here than you do in the rest of your empire. (since you probably have a Market, etc. hhere and not every where else... markets costing more than Libraries, Gold is probably a good bet)

[cabert]

Originally Posted by bertram

Could you elaborate on this "25% bonus don't lead to rounding down", may be with an example?

say you have :
- both a library and a market (so 25% bonus on gold and on beakers)
- 20 base commerce in the city
- 60 % research
- 10 beakers or gold production capability (did i mention the fact that you could use specialists instead of working the mines?)

if you produce beakers you have
- (20 * 0,6 + 10)*1,25=22 * 1,25 = 27,5 beakers
- (20 * 0,4) * 1,25 = 10 gold
you have 0,5 beakers lost due to down rounding

If you produce gold you have
- (20*0,6)*1,25 = 15 beakers
- (20*0,4+10)= 22,5 gold
you have 0,5 gold lost due to down rounding.
Bad example, in this case, it doesn't matter if you work gold or beakers
But in such an example you should work one less mine and use one more specialist => 1/2 less beakers or gold produced, and more gold or beakers.

In fact, if you have to produce gold or science, the best option is to shut down all mines and work all the specialists you can = more beakers and more gold.

[Andrei_V]

When you build Research/ Gold/ Culture, you convert half of your raw beakers into these things. That's, if you have Forges/ Factories etc, they do not work. Whatever number of hammers you collect from tiles is halved and converted to beakers/ coins etc.

Also, I'm afraid, the beakers (coins) you generate this way are not affected by Libraries, Universities, etc.

This is a way unefficient. If you switch to farms only an run as many specialists (of different kinds) as possible, you'll typically make several times more beakers/ gold etc. If you don't have city improvements to run specialists, this is the best time to build them instead of building Research etc.

[cabert]

Originally Posted by Andrei_V

When you build Research/ Gold/ Culture, you convert half of your raw beakers into these things. That's, if you have Forges/ Factories etc, they do not work. Whatever number of hammers you collect from tiles is halved and converted to beakers/ coins etc.

Also, I'm afraid, the beakers (coins) you generate this way are not affected by Libraries, Universities, etc.

This is a way unefficient. If you switch to farms only an run as many specialists (of different kinds) as possible, you'll typically make several times more beakers/ gold etc. If you don't have city improvements to run specialists, this is the best time to build them instead of building Research etc.

although the conclusion is right, i fear the rest is wrong!
the beakers produced do benefit from libraries and such!

[Andrei_V]

Originally Posted by cabert

the beakers produced do benefit from libraries and such!

Thanks for the correction, I was not sure about this.

[Stolen Rutters]

I think we are assuming that you have already maximized the number of specialists you are using since that could almost always speed up your tech faster than working trees or mines and converting the production.

Not having caste system, you can only use two people to work as scientists with a library built, and three specialists for a university if memory serves. Also two? merchants can work when you built a either a marketplace or grocer (four merchants if you have both). Each one of those mines pulled off of production for a scientist will give you three raw beakers plus three GP points, and so on down the line. If you pop a great person from all the specialists, they can give you another tech free (or at least help you along to the tune of +1K beakers or so if you are pretty far along the tech tree).

The problem with all this advice is it really depends on how you set up your cities. (Never built a library? You need caste system to even consider specialists...)

My real advice would be to check your science setup converting production both ways and see how fast the science moves and consider what specialists do to change that and remember that great people change the specialist equation (if they are equal, more GP will swing the equation). If speed to the next tech is your goal, just try out different focuses city to city and see what gives you more beakers. When you have cut the number of turns to the next tech as far as you could, hit 'next turn'.

[cabert]

we were saying "use the better bonus" production
indeed, if you have no library and no marketplace you cannot use specialists, but it would be a good idea to build the library or the market.
Don't tell me you can't because if you can't build a library, you can't build science. Same for markets and gold.

[Andrei_V]

Exactly. I'd typically build all of them, and run a mixture of specialists under Slavery or Emancipation, rather than Caste System.

I would not care about 'city specialization' or alike in this case, since I assume the city is already specialized for production. I just don't need it right now.

[Krikkitone]

Originally Posted by cabert

say you have :
- both a library and a market (so 25% bonus on gold and on beakers)
- 20 base commerce in the city
- 60 % research
- 10 beakers or gold production capability (did i mention the fact that you could use specialists instead of working the mines?)

if you produce beakers you have
- (20 * 0,6 + 10)*1,25=22 * 1,25 = 27,5 beakers
- (20 * 0,4) * 1,25 = 10 gold
you have 0,5 beakers lost due to down rounding

If you produce gold you have
- (20*0,6)*1,25 = 15 beakers
- (20*0,4+10)= 22,5 gold
you have 0,5 gold lost due to down rounding.
Bad example, in this case, it doesn't matter if you work gold or beakers
But in such an example you should work one less mine and use one more specialist => 1/2 less beakers or gold produced, and more gold or beakers.

In fact, if you have to produce gold or science, the best option is to shut down all mines and work all the specialists you can = more beakers and more gold.

key problem with the analysis is it assumes only one city (in which case it doesn't matter)

Imagine he has One City
NO Marketplace
but he has a Library, University, and Academy

20 commerce
10 maintenance (50% commerce to gold.. no boost)=0 net gold
10 commerce to flasks...(+100%)=20 Flasks


and is producing 20 Hammers per turn

to Gold
=10 Gold per turn= maintenance all paid
100% commerce to flasks=20 raw
+100%=40 Flasks

to Flasks
=10 raw Flasks per turn +10 raw Flasks from commerce
=20 raw flasks
+100% =40 Flasks


The point is it doesn't matter what you have in this city, it matyters what you have in other cities. Is this city more Gold v. Science boosted than the Rest of your empire

If I have a Library and Univerity here (no Gold boosters at all) here but all my other cities have a Library, University AND a Monastery (and no Gold boosters), I should build Gold in this City rather than Research

[cabert]

Originally Posted by Krikkitone

key problem with the analysis is it assumes only one city (in which case it doesn't matter)

Imagine he has One City
NO Marketplace
but he has a Library, University, and Academy

20 commerce
10 maintenance (50% commerce to gold.. no boost)=0 net gold
10 commerce to flasks...(+100%)=20 Flasks


and is producing 20 Hammers per turn

to Gold
=10 Gold per turn= maintenance all paid
100% commerce to flasks=20 raw
+100%=40 Flasks

to Flasks
=10 raw Flasks per turn +10 raw Flasks from commerce
=20 raw flasks
+100% =40 Flasks


The point is it doesn't matter what you have in this city, it matyters what you have in other cities. Is this city more Gold v. Science boosted than the Rest of your empire

If I have a Library and Univerity here (no Gold boosters at all) here but all my other cities have a Library, University AND a Monastery (and no Gold boosters), I should build Gold in this City rather than Research

no way!
if you can pay maintenance for your whole empire through 10 gold, then you better build a settler!

i however agree to the fact that the main thing is the difference between the bonuses you have in the current city and the rest of the empire.
Ie a bonus here and a better bonus elsewhere is like a minus.
But if it's lacking a monastery, why don't you just built it?

[acuoio]

I usually choose to convert to money. That allows me to nudge the research slider up 10% which affects all my cities.

[Andrei_V]

Specialise exactly one city for gold income, preferrably the one with religious shrine. Build all the income buildings, including the Wall Street. Run up to 7 Merchant specialists for gold (2 from Market, 2 from Grocer, 3 from Wall Street), settle all GMs and Prophets there, too.

In a small perfectionist empire (aimed at Space Race) it'll pay all your maintenance, allowing for 100% science green most if not all of the time.

[lordofcivs]

Originally Posted by bertram

I was wondering about how I should choose between converting production into gold or research. It goes like this:

In e.g. my capital I have some turns to spend before I have something useful to build, so I decide to convert my production into either gold or research.

Now, which will be most effective in lowering the number of turns left to discover my next technology:

• Should I choose the gold which will make me more money so I can set a higher percentage, for instance raise it from 60% to 80% ?
  
• Or, should I choose to convert the production directly into beakers which will lower the # of turns left at the same 60% ?
  
  

I think it's better to go for Gold if you have more science multiplier buildings than Gold multipliers. Usually people have more science multipliers than gold in early/mid games and more gold multipliers in mid/late games. Generally you will find Academies (especial buildings made by the Great Scientists) to be powerful enough to make you go for Gold. But going for gold is a very late option in the game. So most of the time when you will need to have more % in slider and go for gold in some cities, you won't have even an option there unless you have researched it.