Civil War!!

Psychic_Llamas · Jul 25, 2006, 06:30 AM

Ok, what is everyone's view on Civil wars like from Civ 2?

I think it would be quite fitting for warhammer, think the Nagash -> Settra Civil war, the tilean Civil wars, the Empire, and Bretonnia, and, of corse, Orcs and Gobbos. then there is the Split of the elves. there have been lots of lasting civil wars in the WH history.

I was looking through the FfH Forum, when i came accross this:

Spoiler:

I really like the idea that, should you really missmanage your Civilization, (like over expand, go into financial crisis, neglect research, too much unhappyness, and unhealthyness etc) then the most affected cities would rebel and break off to form a new civilization, well, the same civilization as you, but lead by a "rebelious" leader for that civ.
For example, if i was playing the Wood Elves as, say Ariel(

) and i Built 6 cities in the space of 30 turns, i built 3 on flood plains and 2 in jungles. then i would quickly be bankrups, and sickness would be rampant. at this point, the poorest, and sickest cities rebel, and breaking off form a new Wood Elves civilisation lead by Coeddil (a rebelious Treeman Ancient who is against the wood elves living in Athel Loren). this new civilisation would be furious with me, but not yet a war. There would be a special diplomacy option with Coeddil, which would be a peaceful way of rejoining the 2 civs, but extremely hard to do.
Also, during civil wars, barbarieans could pop up INSIDE your territory, dispite Line of sight, symbolising the unrest of your people (or just make you people turn barbarion)

Ideas for Rebel Leaders:

Spoiler:

Please, post what you think on this, and post you own ideas

woodelf · Jul 25, 2006, 06:33 AM

I've always liked the concept of civs splitting apart into 2 or more civs. Especially civs with multiple leaders where the unused one could simply pop into the game.

Psychic_Llamas · Jul 25, 2006, 06:33 AM

Oop, too fast for me

I was going to post a list of rebelious leaders that could be suitable for each civ. i will post that in the first post.

@ Woodelf: do you have any ideas?

woodelf · Jul 25, 2006, 06:43 AM

I think in order to give Olleus a chance to make this work we need to brainstorm what factors are involved in a potential civil war.

You mentioned overexpansion, financial woes, unhappiness, and unhealthiness already. Others include poor civics choices, the wrong state religion, too much outside religion, neighbors who are happy, neighbors who are unhappy, lack of war for warmongers, visa versa for builders.

These factors could all be given numerical values and individual cities could go into revolt at a certain threshold. When X number of adjacent cities are in revolt then a potential civil war or splinter civ could form.

Sound about right?

Psychic_Llamas · Jul 25, 2006, 07:16 AM

sounds good.

So some factors influencing civil war are:
-overexpansion (linked to 'financial woes', building too many cities too quickly)
-financial woes (when finances reach -50$ / turn, +1 rebelion point, -75$ / turn, +2 rebelion points, -90$ / turn, +3 rebelion points, -105$ / turn, +4rebelion points, -120$ or more/ turn, +5 rebelion points,
-excess unhappiness ( if 75% of your cities have 1 more unhappy than happy, +1 rebelion point. if 75% of your cities have 3 more unhappy than happy, +2 rebelion point. if 75% of your cities have 5 more unhappy than happy, +3 rebelion point. if 75% of your cities have 7 more unhappy than happy, +4 rebelion point. if all of you cities are suffering 7 more unhappy than happy, +5 rebelion point)
-excess unhealthiness ( if 75% of your cities have 1 more unhealthy than healthy, +1 rebelion point. if 75% of your cities have 3 more unhealthy than healthy, +2 rebelion point. if 75% of your cities have 5 more unhealthy than healthy, +3 rebelion point. if 75% of your cities have 7 more unhealthy than healthy, +4 rebelion point. if all of you cities are suffering 7 more unhappy than happy, +5 rebelion point)
-Neighbours being happier than your own cities. (if your neighbours have twice as many happy to your cities, +2 rebelion point, if your neighbours have three times as many happy to your cities, +4 rebelion point, if your neighbours have 4 times (or more) as many happy to your cities, +8 rebelion points.)
-Neighbours being more prosperous than yourself (more cash) (if your neighbours have twice as much cash as you, + 1 rebelion point, if your neighbours have 3 times as much cash as you, + 2 rebelion points, if your neighbours have 4 times as much (or more) cash as you, + 3 rebelion points,)
-Having a state religeon that is in minority. (+ 1 rebelion point for each non state religeon more than state religeon)
-War-wearyness (+X rebelion points if war has lasted X times 20 turns)
-Peace-wearyness (+X rebelion points if peace has lasted X times 20 turns)

These 'rebelion points' are cumulative up to 150 points. then, when 150 points is reached, cities begin to revolt.

A player can decrease rebelion points by havingthe exact opposite of the above points.

Sound OK as a base to work from?

woodelf · Jul 25, 2006, 07:21 AM

So you're basing the rebellions on a total of all city points for the Empire? What about individual city points for each city? Should there be a threshold there as well?

Psychic_Llamas · Jul 25, 2006, 07:34 AM

not too sure how you could work that... you could have 2 piles of rebelion points, one for civ cumulative, and one for city cumulative.Perhaps just make it city cumulative then, as civil wars should be a rare ocurence, and should only happen one out of five games or less.

Have each city compile thier rebelion points, and then when the city reaches 150 points, the city begins to riot and neighboring cities have a % chance to begin rioting also. the capital can never riot however.also, perhaps if neighbouring civs have cities near rebelling cities, they could join in the rebelion? or start a rebelion of thier own?

hows that?

woodelf · Jul 25, 2006, 07:41 AM

Exactly. The neighboring part has to be factored in if their cultural boundaries are touching and the tiles have a mixed bag of culture.

Now we need to hear from everyone else! Do they have jobs, real lives, or do they need sleep?

Psychic_Llamas · Jul 25, 2006, 07:44 AM

Im sorry, what is this s l eeee p thing you speak of

and yes, obviously cultural boarders should play a large role.

Duke van Frost · Jul 25, 2006, 07:51 AM

I don´t know anything about sleep, that´s why Ploe let me do the Unitstats!

Ploeperpengel · Jul 25, 2006, 01:27 PM

Sorry to be a bit passive right now. Still playing Lazarus. It's just to good to stop playing. Blame Duke for it cause he made the advertise

The civil war idea is nice but it will really be a complicated thing to implement nicely. Especially where civil wars actually formed civs we want to have playable like Darkelves. But I think it would be even nicer combined with the civchangeing ideas in the freedom thread.

woodelf · Jul 25, 2006, 02:38 PM

I followed that link as well, but figured I better stay away or I was doomed and I'd never learn max.

seZereth · Jul 26, 2006, 02:10 AM

i dont like online rpgs and i didnt play any game for the last ... well, since i started modding civ4

but now you all have to play the newly uploaded version of our MOD... playtest is the better word

be happy with new graphics and new stats and hunt down those freaking bugs which might occure

Psychic_Llamas · Jul 26, 2006, 02:22 AM

I was thinking of Civil war as not affecting who the player is at all, and i started this new thread because i really HATE the idea of changing civs halfway through a game. I will not rant on this subject again. if you want to see my reasons for hating that idea, go to the 'freedom' thread

But forgetting about that please,

the civil wars would be extremely hard to do i expect, and this is purely speculation, but it could (hopefully) become reality.

Also, i think a simple solution to that problem with the rebels from High Elven civilwars is to make the offspring pleased with the Dark Elves or Wood Elves, or both, (depending on what other sides are playing), and have them always at peace between each other.
(i hope that made some sense

)

DutchJunkie · Jul 27, 2006, 02:56 AM

I think your idea is truly awesome. Really hope this will be possible in the future!

Psychic_Llamas · Jul 27, 2006, 03:03 AM

Thanks DJ (havn't seen ya in a while, Hey :wave: )

Got any ideas to add?

DutchJunkie · Jul 27, 2006, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psychic_Llamas

Thanks DJ (havn't seen ya in a while, Hey :wave: )

Got any ideas to add?

Yeah .. I'm so busy with graduating, it takes up all my time

And I'm not getting paid very well, so I have to work in my spare time .. I hate working 6,5 days in a week

But ideas .. well I don't know how to implement it technically .. getting ideas for rebellions must be fairly simple for most races, since most races got opposittes; Dwarfs-Chaos Dwarfs, High Elves-Dark Elves, Civilised humans-Chaos humans etcetera. Chaos fractions/cults are the most common thing in the Warhammer world imo. They rise all the time in the old world.

Comments on specific races:

Spoiler:

I think army books will reveal more, but I have to check them. This are some first ideas ..

Comments on civil war influences:
- like them all

- For some races one thing is more important than another: riches are important to dwarves and ogres, Orcs like fighting etcetera

Psychic_Llamas · Jul 27, 2006, 05:58 AM

Oh! are you graduating? im getting there too, last term of year 12. Have fun!
Pitty about the work though

poor thing...

anyway, Nice list of opposites, quite helpeful

, i think its a good idea having dwarfs as immune to civil war, it would make them really special in that regard. i will see what leaders i can come up with for the rebels once im finished my Homework and study. thanks again for the list

Lord Olleus · Jul 27, 2006, 07:58 AM

Civil wars are worthy of a mod on its own, and is far too complicated to be made just for this mod. However, I am very interested in civil wars and revolutions and have wanted to make it for a long time, but simply have to many things to do. Once I have finished the core for this mod (and a few other things) I will start making this. Once I have a stable release I wil incorporate it here, but we are talking many months of work. Don't expect anything before at the very least.

Psychic_Llamas · Jul 27, 2006, 08:09 AM

Oh of course we wernt expecting this idea to be for the next release

dont be silly, this is only ideas for WELL into the future, once we have the civs, techs, religeon, units, bugs, flavour, leaders, traits etc all smoothed out.

I just read your idea for revolutions, and you made all the complex crap i came up with look so silly

yours is so much more simple and user friendly and (im sure, because our lead programmer suggested it) it will be easy(er) to do.

But perhaps we can salvage some of the ideas here to diversify the Revolution mod once its done? (i know this is thinking very far in advance

)

Jul 25, 2006, 06:30 AM	#1
Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Western Australia Posts: 6,366 Images: 6	Civil War!! Ok, what is everyone's view on Civil wars like from Civ 2? I think it would be quite fitting for warhammer, think the Nagash -> Settra Civil war, the tilean Civil wars, the Empire, and Bretonnia, and, of corse, Orcs and Gobbos. then there is the Split of the elves. there have been lots of lasting civil wars in the WH history. I was looking through the FfH Forum, when i came accross this: Spoiler: "...I'd love to see a reintroduction of the old schizm concept from Civ 1 and 2. Perhaps create a minor civ that would represent the 'rebels.'? Or a leader for each civ who would represent the rebellious side of that civ (Armelanchier for the Elves, for instance), who couldn't be selected by players, but could come about through the AI selecting them, or through a revolt within your empire? I do like the idea of an identical civ but an opposite leader that emerges as the "rebelious" faction. Is it possible to put the same civ in a game more than once? Through this schism concept, it'd be VERY cool to have two different types of the same civ that are fighting it out. On this, there should be "other ways" of insighting or creating instability within a civilization. This could/would be cool for two reasons, 1) it would be a viable strategy of rivals to encourage discent and chaos (especially for chaotically aligned civs) within an empire without resorting to war, and 2) because then the personalities of leadership would really come out and show IN GAME the differences between the leaders. What other ways could there be to create schism, other than my horrible example of self-mismanagement?..." I really like the idea that, should you really missmanage your Civilization, (like over expand, go into financial crisis, neglect research, too much unhappyness, and unhealthyness etc) then the most affected cities would rebel and break off to form a new civilization, well, the same civilization as you, but lead by a "rebelious" leader for that civ. For example, if i was playing the Wood Elves as, say Ariel( ) and i Built 6 cities in the space of 30 turns, i built 3 on flood plains and 2 in jungles. then i would quickly be bankrups, and sickness would be rampant. at this point, the poorest, and sickest cities rebel, and breaking off form a new Wood Elves civilisation lead by Coeddil (a rebelious Treeman Ancient who is against the wood elves living in Athel Loren). this new civilisation would be furious with me, but not yet a war. There would be a special diplomacy option with Coeddil, which would be a peaceful way of rejoining the 2 civs, but extremely hard to do. Also, during civil wars, barbarieans could pop up INSIDE your territory, dispite Line of sight, symbolising the unrest of your people (or just make you people turn barbarion) Ideas for Rebel Leaders: Spoiler: THE EMPIRE TILEA ESTALIA KISLEV BRETONNIA THE LIZARDMEN ORCS --- Wurrzag ud urs Zahubu (great shaman of the Bone Nose Tribe) GOBLINS THE HIGH ELVES --- The Renegade Council ( a group of unnamed Renegade highelf Wizards turned Dark Elf) THE DARK ELVES --- Hellebron (oldest of the Hag Queens, who seeks eternal beauty through sacrificing slaves, although she for every day of beauty ther is a month of uglyness beyond imagining) THE WOOD ELVES --- Coeddil (a rebelious Treeman Ancient who is against the wood elves living in Athel Loren) DWARFS --- Josef Bugman CHAOS THE VAMPIRE COUNTS THE TOMB KINGS --- Nagash THE SKAVEN --- Grey Seer Thanquol (paranoid, mad scientist) THE OGRE KINGDOMS IND NIPPON BEASTS OF CHAOS THE BOARDER PRINCES ARABYA THE HOBGOBLA-KHAN SIAM NORSCA CATHAY ALBION THE KURGAN HUNG THE AMAZONIANS THE DARK DWARVES Please, post what you think on this, and post you own ideas __________________ Civ 4 Warhammer: Heart of Chaos Mod Try it... You know you want to... (Forum) (Download) (Design Overview) (Design Discussion) AVATAR Mod Development (Main Development Thread) Last edited by Psychic_Llamas; Jul 25, 2006 at 07:50 AM.

Jul 25, 2006, 06:33 AM	#3
Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Western Australia Posts: 6,366 Images: 6	Oop, too fast for me I was going to post a list of rebelious leaders that could be suitable for each civ. i will post that in the first post. @ Woodelf: do you have any ideas? __________________ Civ 4 Warhammer: Heart of Chaos Mod Try it... You know you want to... (Forum) (Download) (Design Overview) (Design Discussion) AVATAR Mod Development (Main Development Thread)

Jul 25, 2006, 07:16 AM	#5
Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Western Australia Posts: 6,366 Images: 6	sounds good. So some factors influencing civil war are: -overexpansion (linked to 'financial woes', building too many cities too quickly) -financial woes (when finances reach -50$ / turn, +1 rebelion point, -75$ / turn, +2 rebelion points, -90$ / turn, +3 rebelion points, -105$ / turn, +4rebelion points, -120$ or more/ turn, +5 rebelion points, -excess unhappiness ( if 75% of your cities have 1 more unhappy than happy, +1 rebelion point. if 75% of your cities have 3 more unhappy than happy, +2 rebelion point. if 75% of your cities have 5 more unhappy than happy, +3 rebelion point. if 75% of your cities have 7 more unhappy than happy, +4 rebelion point. if all of you cities are suffering 7 more unhappy than happy, +5 rebelion point) -excess unhealthiness ( if 75% of your cities have 1 more unhealthy than healthy, +1 rebelion point. if 75% of your cities have 3 more unhealthy than healthy, +2 rebelion point. if 75% of your cities have 5 more unhealthy than healthy, +3 rebelion point. if 75% of your cities have 7 more unhealthy than healthy, +4 rebelion point. if all of you cities are suffering 7 more unhappy than happy, +5 rebelion point) -Neighbours being happier than your own cities. (if your neighbours have twice as many happy to your cities, +2 rebelion point, if your neighbours have three times as many happy to your cities, +4 rebelion point, if your neighbours have 4 times (or more) as many happy to your cities, +8 rebelion points.) -Neighbours being more prosperous than yourself (more cash) (if your neighbours have twice as much cash as you, + 1 rebelion point, if your neighbours have 3 times as much cash as you, + 2 rebelion points, if your neighbours have 4 times as much (or more) cash as you, + 3 rebelion points,) -Having a state religeon that is in minority. (+ 1 rebelion point for each non state religeon more than state religeon) -War-wearyness (+X rebelion points if war has lasted X times 20 turns) -Peace-wearyness (+X rebelion points if peace has lasted X times 20 turns) These 'rebelion points' are cumulative up to 150 points. then, when 150 points is reached, cities begin to revolt. A player can decrease rebelion points by havingthe exact opposite of the above points. Sound OK as a base to work from? __________________ Civ 4 Warhammer: Heart of Chaos Mod Try it... You know you want to... (Forum) (Download) (Design Overview) (Design Discussion) AVATAR Mod Development (Main Development Thread)

Jul 25, 2006, 07:34 AM	#7
Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Western Australia Posts: 6,366 Images: 6	not too sure how you could work that... you could have 2 piles of rebelion points, one for civ cumulative, and one for city cumulative.Perhaps just make it city cumulative then, as civil wars should be a rare ocurence, and should only happen one out of five games or less. Have each city compile thier rebelion points, and then when the city reaches 150 points, the city begins to riot and neighboring cities have a % chance to begin rioting also. the capital can never riot however.also, perhaps if neighbouring civs have cities near rebelling cities, they could join in the rebelion? or start a rebelion of thier own? hows that? __________________ Civ 4 Warhammer: Heart of Chaos Mod Try it... You know you want to... (Forum) (Download) (Design Overview) (Design Discussion) AVATAR Mod Development (Main Development Thread)

Jul 25, 2006, 07:44 AM	#9
Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Western Australia Posts: 6,366 Images: 6	Im sorry, what is this s l eeee p thing you speak of and yes, obviously cultural boarders should play a large role. __________________ Civ 4 Warhammer: Heart of Chaos Mod Try it... You know you want to... (Forum) (Download) (Design Overview) (Design Discussion) AVATAR Mod Development (Main Development Thread)

Jul 25, 2006, 06:33 AM	#2
woodelf Bard Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Gallery Posts: 15,001	I've always liked the concept of civs splitting apart into 2 or more civs. Especially civs with multiple leaders where the unused one could simply pop into the game.

Jul 25, 2006, 06:43 AM	#4
woodelf Bard Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Gallery Posts: 15,001	I think in order to give Olleus a chance to make this work we need to brainstorm what factors are involved in a potential civil war. You mentioned overexpansion, financial woes, unhappiness, and unhealthiness already. Others include poor civics choices, the wrong state religion, too much outside religion, neighbors who are happy, neighbors who are unhappy, lack of war for warmongers, visa versa for builders. These factors could all be given numerical values and individual cities could go into revolt at a certain threshold. When X number of adjacent cities are in revolt then a potential civil war or splinter civ could form. Sound about right?

Jul 25, 2006, 07:21 AM	#6
woodelf Bard Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Gallery Posts: 15,001	So you're basing the rebellions on a total of all city points for the Empire? What about individual city points for each city? Should there be a threshold there as well?

Jul 25, 2006, 07:41 AM	#8
woodelf Bard Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Gallery Posts: 15,001	Exactly. The neighboring part has to be factored in if their cultural boundaries are touching and the tiles have a mixed bag of culture. Now we need to hear from everyone else! Do they have jobs, real lives, or do they need sleep?

Jul 25, 2006, 07:51 AM	#10
Duke van Frost Lunatic Killer Robot Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Darmstadt, Germany Posts: 770	I don´t know anything about sleep, that´s why Ploe let me do the Unitstats!

Jul 25, 2006, 01:27 PM	#11
Ploeperpengel academic precarity Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Berlin Posts: 4,748	Sorry to be a bit passive right now. Still playing Lazarus. It's just to good to stop playing. Blame Duke for it cause he made the advertise The civil war idea is nice but it will really be a complicated thing to implement nicely. Especially where civil wars actually formed civs we want to have playable like Darkelves. But I think it would be even nicer combined with the civchangeing ideas in the freedom thread. __________________ Fall from Heaven II (Forum) (Website)

Jul 25, 2006, 02:38 PM	#12
woodelf Bard Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Gallery Posts: 15,001	I followed that link as well, but figured I better stay away or I was doomed and I'd never learn max.

Jul 26, 2006, 02:10 AM	#13
seZereth FfH´s art monk(ey) Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bayreuth Posts: 3,900 Images: 1	i dont like online rpgs and i didnt play any game for the last ... well, since i started modding civ4 but now you all have to play the newly uploaded version of our MOD... playtest is the better word be happy with new graphics and new stats and hunt down those freaking bugs which might occure __________________ The Art monk(ey)`s Laboratory: my Unit Library not updated for a longer time now, but: ...teaser of my work in progress Fall from Heaven II still on my crusade to replace every unit with unique art... "People might get tired of crack or heroine. Not of FFH2." - Xenokite Aftermath mod... survive the nightmare Mad Max Fury Road ... post apocalytic warfare. The new Warhammer Fantasy Battles mod finally here, come and test with us.. teaser pic

Jul 26, 2006, 02:22 AM	#14
Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Western Australia Posts: 6,366 Images: 6	I was thinking of Civil war as not affecting who the player is at all, and i started this new thread because i really HATE the idea of changing civs halfway through a game. I will not rant on this subject again. if you want to see my reasons for hating that idea, go to the 'freedom' thread But forgetting about that please, the civil wars would be extremely hard to do i expect, and this is purely speculation, but it could (hopefully) become reality. Also, i think a simple solution to that problem with the rebels from High Elven civilwars is to make the offspring pleased with the Dark Elves or Wood Elves, or both, (depending on what other sides are playing), and have them always at peace between each other. (i hope that made some sense ) __________________ Civ 4 Warhammer: Heart of Chaos Mod Try it... You know you want to... (Forum) (Download) (Design Overview) (Design Discussion) AVATAR Mod Development (Main Development Thread)

Jul 27, 2006, 02:56 AM	#15
DutchJunkie Warlord Join Date: May 2004 Location: Netherlands Posts: 206	I think your idea is truly awesome. Really hope this will be possible in the future!

Jul 27, 2006, 03:03 AM	#16
Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Western Australia Posts: 6,366 Images: 6	Thanks DJ (havn't seen ya in a while, Hey :wave: ) Got any ideas to add? __________________ Civ 4 Warhammer: Heart of Chaos Mod Try it... You know you want to... (Forum) (Download) (Design Overview) (Design Discussion) AVATAR Mod Development (Main Development Thread)

Jul 27, 2006, 05:58 AM	#18
Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Western Australia Posts: 6,366 Images: 6	Oh! are you graduating? im getting there too, last term of year 12. Have fun! Pitty about the work though poor thing... anyway, Nice list of opposites, quite helpeful, i think its a good idea having dwarfs as immune to civil war, it would make them really special in that regard. i will see what leaders i can come up with for the rebels once im finished my Homework and study. thanks again for the list __________________ Civ 4 Warhammer: Heart of Chaos Mod Try it... You know you want to... (Forum) (Download) (Design Overview) (Design Discussion) AVATAR Mod Development (Main Development Thread)

Jul 27, 2006, 07:58 AM	#19
Lord Olleus Deity Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: England Posts: 4,997	Civil wars are worthy of a mod on its own, and is far too complicated to be made just for this mod. However, I am very interested in civil wars and revolutions and have wanted to make it for a long time, but simply have to many things to do. Once I have finished the core for this mod (and a few other things) I will start making this. Once I have a stable release I wil incorporate it here, but we are talking many months of work. Don't expect anything before at the very least. __________________ Most zealously I seek for erudition. Much do I know, but to know all is my ambition. -Faust

Jul 27, 2006, 08:09 AM	#20
Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Western Australia Posts: 6,366 Images: 6	Oh of course we wernt expecting this idea to be for the next release dont be silly, this is only ideas for WELL into the future, once we have the civs, techs, religeon, units, bugs, flavour, leaders, traits etc all smoothed out. I just read your idea for revolutions, and you made all the complex crap i came up with look so silly yours is so much more simple and user friendly and (im sure, because our lead programmer suggested it) it will be easy(er) to do. But perhaps we can salvage some of the ideas here to diversify the Revolution mod once its done? (i know this is thinking very far in advance) __________________ Civ 4 Warhammer: Heart of Chaos Mod Try it... You know you want to... (Forum) (Download) (Design Overview) (Design Discussion) AVATAR Mod Development (Main Development Thread)

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