[MOD] Eusebius World Religions - Page 8

Winner · Sep 17, 2006, 05:20 AM

Few things:

- I can't found Catholicism, even when I discovered Printing press. The wonder that is needed to found Catholicism isn't available (looking at the XML file, I guess you forgot to change the cost from -1 to 300). Or am I missing something?

- Though I like the "worldview" idea, in my game, AI players prefer to make it (hellenism in my case) their state religion, even if they have other religions present in their cities (christinity, shintoism etc.). Since Hellenism hasn't any cathedrals or temples, it is making them weaker.

- What about including inquisition in this mod?

Morkul · Sep 17, 2006, 05:31 AM

My SDK mod started out as an optimization mod, and o have done rely progress on that. While doing that i was looking at the SDK part of the IA and is trying to fix functions to handle the problem i was takling about first. The problem is that im not that good at python so i have made some functions in the SDK that i have to export to python before i follow CIV standard. The question is if i have inough time and will to make that kind of changes to make if widely compatible with all mods.

With that said, i think i can take the time to change my SDK mod to be compatible with your mod and at least fix a "changes state religion" event. But remember, sence i have fiddle some with the AI in the SDK to fix issues with your mod my mod will probably not be useful for anyother modder and will limiting changes in the AI behavor from python.

tlucky4life · Sep 17, 2006, 03:35 PM

I think the world views spread to quickly. I was building the Parthenon to found hellenism, 16 turned to go when the message poped up that Chitcha Inza(sp) was built. I wanted to found hellenism so I cut ties imediately with the rest of the world. Meso was founded on the other side of a large continent. 8 or 9 turns later the whole contenant is Meso and converted. I think the worldviews spread too quickly and, if they are suposed to act as a world view, it should be seperate from religion. They shouldnt act as a state religion. The AI doesnt understand that other religions are more beneficial. It hijacks the game because they spread too fast.

Winner · Sep 17, 2006, 11:55 PM

Also, I am not sure about the way "secularism" is treated in this mod - it is too connected to marxism, like marxists were the only atheists. In fact, secularism is older than communism and in many parts of the world, atheists and agnostics are the most vocal anti-communists. I don't think it is fair to make "bolshevik" a missionary for secularism, Juche tower as its shrine (I guess that most atheists despise the North Korean regime as much as believers do, besides, Juche ideology is almost religious in its nature, certainly it isn't a fine example of secular thinking) and give it culture penalties. Most of all, secularism means to make clear distiction between religion and the state. Most of European countries are secular, even if majority of their people are believers. I haven't noticed, that we were burning monasteries

Maybe it should be treated more like a worldview. Certainly, it should be 'de-marxisticized'.

ripple01 · Sep 19, 2006, 03:07 PM

Eusebius,

Fantastic job on this mod. I started playing around with it last night and I love the avenues it opens up for more detailed gameplay.

Everything was going well until I reached the Medieval age and someone founded MesoAmericanism. Within 10-15 turns 5 out of the 7 AI I had met converted to MesoAmericanism and it had had spread to 4 out of my 6 cities! Is this normal? I see from a post above that I'm not the only one to experience this.

Thanks for your hard work on this awesome mod.

ripple01

Eusebius · Sep 19, 2006, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ripple01

Eusebius,
Everything was going well until I reached the Medieval age and someone founded MesoAmericanism. Within 10-15 turns 5 out of the 7 AI I had met converted to MesoAmericanism and it had had spread to 4 out of my 6 cities! Is this normal? I see from a post above that I'm not the only one to experience this.

Yes, I'm getting the feeling that this definitely needs to be adjusted. Could you tell me what other religions were in play when this happened?

Thanks,
Eusebius

MasterJ · Sep 20, 2006, 01:19 PM

the previous version the 0.23 for Warlord dont work with the french version of the game the 0.30 too?
i test the 0.30 in a few i just download now ....
the problem on the 0.23 is: the main menu is not complete i have not all the text so i have take the folder "text" on the "xml" folder and drop this one into a new folder after that the main menu "come back" but of course the Text added is show like : "txt_description_(etc)" that's perhaps the mod need a translation?

Eusebius · Sep 20, 2006, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterJ

the previous version the 0.23 for Warlord dont work with the french version of the game the 0.30 too?
i test the 0.30 in a few i just download now ....
the problem on the 0.23 is: the main menu is not complete i have not all the text so i have take the folder "text" on the "xml" folder and drop this one into a new folder after that the main menu "come back" but of course the Text added is show like : "txt_description_(etc)" that's perhaps the mod need a translation?

Yes, it certainly does. I apologize for being a single-language American, but I have no way to provide translations. If you (or anyone) would like to vounteer, the relevant file is \Assets\xml\text\TrueProphetTextInfos.xml. All you would need to do is add <French> fields under the <English> ones.

Thank you for your interest,
Eusebius

Eusebius · Sep 20, 2006, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winner

Also, I am not sure about the way "secularism" is treated in this mod ... Most of all, secularism means to make clear distiction between religion and the state.

Let's talk about this. I'm inclined to say that the definition of secularism you just gave is actually a perfect definition for the civic "Freedom of Religion". Secularism, the way the Mod defines it is an ideological movement that spreads (and I agree that it need not be Marxist). However, in the 20th century, some countries adopted aetheism/secularism as state religion/ideology. They actively discouraged religion and sometimes killed religious people. I cannot think of an example of this "State Non-Religion" which did not have Marxist roots.

This policy of communist countries was one of the reasons they were opposed by other nations. It certainly became a rallying point for resistance to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. There were also plenty of speeches (sermons?) in this country about "Godless communnism". In the mod, countries with a state religion of Secularism will take diplomatic penalties with countries that don't share that state religion.

This is the sort of thing I am trying to represent in the mod. Does that change your impression?

Eusebius

MasterJ · Sep 20, 2006, 02:03 PM

Ok no problem it's more easy to translate your mod than one with 10 files or more on this famous folder

ok i translate all and i test again in a few (but today is late now i must sleep lol)

tlucky4life · Sep 20, 2006, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Yes, I'm getting the feeling that this definitely needs to be adjusted. Could you tell me what other religions were in play when this happened?

Well both times Ive played through the religions that Ive founded were ethnic religions, ie hinduism and shinto. However I have noticed that later in the game when christianity and Islam show up the viewpionts dominate bigtime. Civs that found a new religion wont switch and even if they do they only switch for 10 to 20 turns then its back to Meso. Is there anyway to make these viewpionts have all the content they have know ie(the buildings and + and - in diplo) but not allow people to convert to them like a religion. I know that these viewpiont are actually based on past religions but if they are to be viewpionts and not religions then they shouldnt compete with religions directly.

Eusebius · Sep 21, 2006, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlucky4life

Is there anyway to make these viewpionts have all the content they have know ie(the buildings and + and - in diplo) but not allow people to convert to them like a religion.

I'm not ready to go that far yet. Here is what I am thinking of...

Make sure that all the worldview buildings don't increase the influence of the worldview religion. That will decrease spread and hopefully make them less interesting choices for the AI.
Stop or greatly reduce religion spread from one area (continent) to another. This means that only religions with missionaries will be able to spread between continents--none of the worldviews have missionaries.
Reduce the spread rate of the worldviews to the standard 100.
Eliminate the Confucian cathedral, so that none of the worldviews have cathedrals.

What I really need to find out is how the AI decides what religion to pick. Can anyone point me to the relevant code in the SDK?

(BTW, I think #2 above will dovetail nicely with the way units spread religion in Ket's Composite mod, when he has time to integrate this mod into his.)

Eusebius

Eusebius · Sep 21, 2006, 12:40 PM

CROSS REFERENCE LINK: TheLopez is discussing putting a favored religion trait in the SDK...
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=186697

Eusebius

ripple01 · Sep 22, 2006, 12:34 PM

>Originally Posted by ripple01:
>
>Eusebius,
>Everything was going well until I reached the Medieval age and someone >founded MesoAmericanism. Within 10-15 turns 5 out of the 7 AI I had met >converted to MesoAmericanism and it had had spread to 4 out of my 6 >cities! Is this normal? I see from a post above that I'm not the only one to >experience this.
>
>Yes, I'm getting the feeling that this definitely needs to be adjusted. Could >you tell me what other religions were in play when this happened?
>
>Thanks,
>Eusebius

Eusebius,

In my game (Prince, Fractal, Normal Size, 11 AI) the religions were founded as follows:

Hinduism - 675 BC
Zoroastrianism - 500 BC
Judaism - 225 BC
MesoAmericanism - 150 AD
Shintoism - 175 AD

Between 250 AD when the founder of Meso converted, and 580 AD 7 AI's had converted to Meso.

Cheers,
ripple01

Eusebius · Sep 23, 2006, 08:46 AM

I can see why all the AIs convert to worldviews. The AI simply looks at whether a religion is present in a city and pays absolutely no attention to the religion influence number or the effects of buildings (except in holy cities). I think this will be a relatively simple fix, but it will have to be in the SDK.

I was hoping to avoid putting SDK changes in this mod.

I see that Kael has a tutorial on compiling the SDK without having to buy a C++ compiler. I'm going to give it a shot. I'm looking to do a 0.4 release sometime next week.

Eusebius

Ket · Sep 24, 2006, 05:06 AM

Eus...

There are 2 ways to do it (compile)
VS2003 Visual Studio Editor... The expensive way, but you get a killer IDE
Code Blocks And VS2003 Express Kael's Tutorial... I use this and its GREAT for everything except debugging. If you where using VS2003 you could actualy step through the code in real time.

If you need my codeblocks project file I can send it, you drop it in your source directory and it will handle the rest...its properly set up with extensions and links...

Also take a look at this thread I just started..
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...01#post4564201

Abu Ibrahim · Sep 24, 2006, 06:50 AM

Have you considered including the Druze religion in your mod? It's a religion from the Middle East. Try searching Druze on Google and tell me what do you think. Here is a link about the origins and belifes of this religion if you are interested: http://www.druzestudies.org/druzes.html
Also why didn't you include Christian Orthodoxism in your mod? It's one of the most important religions in the world if you consider that it's the state religion in Russia and much of the Est European country's (Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine and Greece).
I would really apreciate if you think about this. Thanks.

Eusebius · Sep 24, 2006, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abu Ibrahim

Have you considered including the Druze religion in your mod? It's a religion from the Middle East. Try searching Druze on Google and tell me what do you think. Here is a link about the origins and belifes of this religion if you are interested: http://www.druzestudies.org/druzes.html
Also why didn't you include Christian Orthodoxism in your mod? It's one of the most important religions in the world if you consider that it's the state religion in Russia and much of the Est European country's (Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine and Greece).
I would really apreciate if you think about this. Thanks.

I'll consider Druze for the next major revision (in a few months).

Actually, if you look at the icon I used for Christianity, it is an Orthodox cross. I am essentially treating the initial founding of Christianity as Orthodox, with both Protestantism and Catholicism as offshoots.

I left the name of the religion as 'Christiantiy' rather than 'Orthodox Christianity' because it seemed better to be broader and more inclusive.

Eusebius

seady · Sep 29, 2006, 02:54 PM

I'm very excited by this mod but I hate building missionaries... I'd rather the different relgions propagated themselves, and wars were fought over control of the holy cities (Can the AI be made to focus on them as an objective???).

Is it possible to either provide the source code for this mod so that i can alter it eventually so that all religions can discard missionaries (i'll bone up on C++) or make all religions spread so that multiple religions can 'infect' the same city, as per Kael's code , i.e.
if (getReligionCount() == 0)

is changed to

if (getReligionCount() <= (the number of religions - 1))

Eusebius · Sep 30, 2006, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seady

I'm very excited by this mod but I hate building missionaries... I'd rather the different relgions propagated themselves, and wars were fought over control of the holy cities (Can the AI be made to focus on them as an objective???).

Is it possible to either provide the source code for this mod so that i can alter it eventually so that all religions can discard missionaries (i'll bone up on C++) or make all religions spread so that multiple religions can 'infect' the same city, as per Kael's code

At the moment (like, for about a day or two) this mod doesn't use any C++/SDK mods, so you get the python code when you download the mod. I rewrote the C++ code Kael is speaking about in Python in the function DoReligion in TPGameUtils.py. The SDK calls this function to "DoReligion" for each city every turn and bypasses the SDK code if you return True. My version does currently allow multiple religions per city.

I am about to put out a new release which tweaks this code and does include an SDK mod altering how the AI chooses a state religion.

Many of the religions in this mod do not have missionaries. There are various ways the code here could be used to insure that they aren't needed at all.

Cheers,
Eusebius

Sep 17, 2006, 05:20 AM	#141
Winner Diverse in Unity Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Brno -> Czech rep. >>European Union Posts: 26,487	Few things: - I can't found Catholicism, even when I discovered Printing press. The wonder that is needed to found Catholicism isn't available (looking at the XML file, I guess you forgot to change the cost from -1 to 300). Or am I missing something? - Though I like the "worldview" idea, in my game, AI players prefer to make it (hellenism in my case) their state religion, even if they have other religions present in their cities (christinity, shintoism etc.). Since Hellenism hasn't any cathedrals or temples, it is making them weaker. - What about including inquisition in this mod? __________________ "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil" - Thomas Mann

Sep 17, 2006, 03:35 PM	#143
tlucky4life Sachem Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Shawnee Posts: 105	I think the world views spread to quickly. I was building the Parthenon to found hellenism, 16 turned to go when the message poped up that Chitcha Inza(sp) was built. I wanted to found hellenism so I cut ties imediately with the rest of the world. Meso was founded on the other side of a large continent. 8 or 9 turns later the whole contenant is Meso and converted. I think the worldviews spread too quickly and, if they are suposed to act as a world view, it should be seperate from religion. They shouldnt act as a state religion. The AI doesnt understand that other religions are more beneficial. It hijacks the game because they spread too fast. __________________ neshnabe' mandaw

Sep 17, 2006, 11:55 PM	#144
Winner Diverse in Unity Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Brno -> Czech rep. >>European Union Posts: 26,487	Also, I am not sure about the way "secularism" is treated in this mod - it is too connected to marxism, like marxists were the only atheists. In fact, secularism is older than communism and in many parts of the world, atheists and agnostics are the most vocal anti-communists. I don't think it is fair to make "bolshevik" a missionary for secularism, Juche tower as its shrine (I guess that most atheists despise the North Korean regime as much as believers do, besides, Juche ideology is almost religious in its nature, certainly it isn't a fine example of secular thinking) and give it culture penalties. Most of all, secularism means to make clear distiction between religion and the state. Most of European countries are secular, even if majority of their people are believers. I haven't noticed, that we were burning monasteries Maybe it should be treated more like a worldview. Certainly, it should be 'de-marxisticized'. __________________ "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil" - Thomas Mann Last edited by Winner; Sep 18, 2006 at 12:05 AM.

Sep 20, 2006, 01:19 PM	#147
MasterJ Chieftain Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 55	the previous version the 0.23 for Warlord dont work with the french version of the game the 0.30 too? i test the 0.30 in a few i just download now .... the problem on the 0.23 is: the main menu is not complete i have not all the text so i have take the folder "text" on the "xml" folder and drop this one into a new folder after that the main menu "come back" but of course the Text added is show like : "txt_description_(etc)" that's perhaps the mod need a translation? Last edited by MasterJ; Sep 20, 2006 at 01:41 PM. Reason: just found an error

Sep 21, 2006, 12:40 PM	#153
Eusebius Warlord Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Hopewell, NJ, USA Posts: 242	CROSS REFERENCE LINK: TheLopez is discussing putting a favored religion trait in the SDK... http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=186697 Eusebius __________________ BroodWar Mod for WARLORDS - All the StarCraft races + one more! World Religions - REVIVAL FOR WARLORDS. 18 real-world customized religions, real conversion. Eusebius Live Animals Component FOR WARLORDS.. Sheep, cows, etc. get up and walk around, spawn, settle down go extinct.

Sep 17, 2006, 05:31 AM	#142
Morkul Chieftain Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 17	My SDK mod started out as an optimization mod, and o have done rely progress on that. While doing that i was looking at the SDK part of the IA and is trying to fix functions to handle the problem i was takling about first. The problem is that im not that good at python so i have made some functions in the SDK that i have to export to python before i follow CIV standard. The question is if i have inough time and will to make that kind of changes to make if widely compatible with all mods. With that said, i think i can take the time to change my SDK mod to be compatible with your mod and at least fix a "changes state religion" event. But remember, sence i have fiddle some with the AI in the SDK to fix issues with your mod my mod will probably not be useful for anyother modder and will limiting changes in the AI behavor from python.

Sep 19, 2006, 03:07 PM	#145
ripple01 Emperor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: New York City Posts: 1,160	Eusebius, Fantastic job on this mod. I started playing around with it last night and I love the avenues it opens up for more detailed gameplay. Everything was going well until I reached the Medieval age and someone founded MesoAmericanism. Within 10-15 turns 5 out of the 7 AI I had met converted to MesoAmericanism and it had had spread to 4 out of my 6 cities! Is this normal? I see from a post above that I'm not the only one to experience this. Thanks for your hard work on this awesome mod. ripple01

Sep 20, 2006, 02:03 PM	#150
MasterJ Chieftain Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 55	Ok no problem it's more easy to translate your mod than one with 10 files or more on this famous folder ok i translate all and i test again in a few (but today is late now i must sleep lol)

Sep 22, 2006, 12:34 PM	#154
ripple01 Emperor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: New York City Posts: 1,160	>Originally Posted by ripple01: > >Eusebius, >Everything was going well until I reached the Medieval age and someone >founded MesoAmericanism. Within 10-15 turns 5 out of the 7 AI I had met >converted to MesoAmericanism and it had had spread to 4 out of my 6 >cities! Is this normal? I see from a post above that I'm not the only one to >experience this. > >Yes, I'm getting the feeling that this definitely needs to be adjusted. Could >you tell me what other religions were in play when this happened? > >Thanks, >Eusebius Eusebius, In my game (Prince, Fractal, Normal Size, 11 AI) the religions were founded as follows: Hinduism - 675 BC Zoroastrianism - 500 BC Judaism - 225 BC MesoAmericanism - 150 AD Shintoism - 175 AD Between 250 AD when the founder of Meso converted, and 580 AD 7 AI's had converted to Meso. Cheers, ripple01

Sep 23, 2006, 08:46 AM	#155
Eusebius Warlord Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Hopewell, NJ, USA Posts: 242	Choosing a religion I can see why all the AIs convert to worldviews. The AI simply looks at whether a religion is present in a city and pays absolutely no attention to the religion influence number or the effects of buildings (except in holy cities). I think this will be a relatively simple fix, but it will have to be in the SDK. I was hoping to avoid putting SDK changes in this mod. I see that Kael has a tutorial on compiling the SDK without having to buy a C++ compiler. I'm going to give it a shot. I'm looking to do a 0.4 release sometime next week. Eusebius __________________ BroodWar Mod for WARLORDS - All the StarCraft races + one more! World Religions - REVIVAL FOR WARLORDS. 18 real-world customized religions, real conversion. Eusebius Live Animals Component FOR WARLORDS.. Sheep, cows, etc. get up and walk around, spawn, settle down go extinct.

Sep 24, 2006, 05:06 AM	#156
Ket Composite Of A Composite Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 899	Eus... There are 2 ways to do it (compile) VS2003 Visual Studio Editor... The expensive way, but you get a killer IDE Code Blocks And VS2003 Express Kael's Tutorial... I use this and its GREAT for everything except debugging. If you where using VS2003 you could actualy step through the code in real time. If you need my codeblocks project file I can send it, you drop it in your source directory and it will handle the rest...its properly set up with extensions and links... Also take a look at this thread I just started.. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...01#post4564201

Sep 24, 2006, 06:50 AM	#157
Abu Ibrahim Chieftain Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Iasi, Romania Posts: 2	Have you considered including the Druze religion in your mod? It's a religion from the Middle East. Try searching Druze on Google and tell me what do you think. Here is a link about the origins and belifes of this religion if you are interested: http://www.druzestudies.org/druzes.html Also why didn't you include Christian Orthodoxism in your mod? It's one of the most important religions in the world if you consider that it's the state religion in Russia and much of the Est European country's (Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine and Greece). I would really apreciate if you think about this. Thanks.

Sep 29, 2006, 02:54 PM	#159
seady Prince Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Sydney Posts: 582	I'm very excited by this mod but I hate building missionaries... I'd rather the different relgions propagated themselves, and wars were fought over control of the holy cities (Can the AI be made to focus on them as an objective???). Is it possible to either provide the source code for this mod so that i can alter it eventually so that all religions can discard missionaries (i'll bone up on C++) or make all religions spread so that multiple religions can 'infect' the same city, as per Kael's code , i.e. if (getReligionCount() == 0) is changed to if (getReligionCount() <= (the number of religions - 1))

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