Post-Expansion Recession

[MikeEdward]

I have a recurring problem when I play, and I would like some advice as to what to do. I am playing as Napoleon on Prince level.

I discover bronze, build and army of axemen or swordsman, and then invade a neighbor, wiping them out.

However, this leaves me with a dilema. I can either fill the vacuum with my own settlers, and build cities there, or leave that open territory vacant. If I leave it vacant, some other civ will come along and set up cities.

But if I fill it, it puts a huge drain on me, financially. I have to draw my research down to 10% in order to just break even, and then wait for my workers to build enough cottages to start generating some revenue.

By the time I am running a financial surplus again, I am behind in technology, putting me at a great disadvantage.

Suggestions on how I can be doing this better would be appreciated.

[Cam_H]

This is a common problem, and effectively one by design from the Civ IV developers. In past editions of Civ one of the most powerful strategies was 'Infinite City Sleaze / Sprawl / Spread' that involved churning out a ton of closely-placed cities that led to a very strong empire.

Civ IV has attempted to combat this by using high city maintenance costs, so the more cities you build, the more expensive your empire is to run. Distance costs, population of cities, and inflation are other modifiers.

Some common short-term tactics to offset really worrying financial times include;

Build cottages: These tile improvements grow over time to become commerce monsters. Playing a Financial leader (not in this instance), cottages on rivers and hamlets, villages, and towns (the progressive development of cottages) all get a bonus .

Emphasise : It's one of my worst habits, but I occasionally still use the City Guv'n'a to allocate my citizens (although it's usually 'emphasise '). Running through your cities and switching citizens to working commercial tiles can often reverse your financial predicament and ensure that cottages that might have been previously ignored now start to grow. Another one to consider is Lighthouses in coastal cities in that by adding food to coastal waters and ocean squares, you'll be able to work these for a good intake.

Anarchy: This one really is a desperate move, but switching civics or religion and spending some time in Anarchy puts a freeze on city maintenance yet allows Workers and Military to be active. In the meantime you may be able to improve some tiles or advance a military campaign.

War: Pillaging enemy improvements, such as enemy cottages, and taking enemy cities will add to your treasury. Unless the captured city is especially valuable, many players who find themselves in a tough spot economically will opt to raze the captured city and re-settle at a later point.

Courthouses: While Marketplaces are handy, typically it's Courthouses that will deliver meaningful cost savings in this area. With a sufficient number of Courthouses built, you can construct the Forbidden Palace that also acts to reduce costs (numbers required varies depending upon game set-up).

Specialist Merchants: Food-rich cities may be able to improve their commercial predicament by running with a Specialist Merchant (Caste System, Marketplace). These also contribute to Great People Points, so in time may lead to the popping of a Great Merchant.

Whipping: Large population cities have higher maintenance, so reducing the population through Starvation or much better yet through Whipping, especially if it leads to contributed to a Courthouse may alleviate some of your costs.

Unit Upkeep: Some units may now be of questionable value to your empire, such as unpromoted Warriors. Admittedly they can add to under Hereditary Rule, and just may be 'that one last unit' that saves your city from capture in rare circumstance, depending upon your circumstances getting rid of these guys may shave a little off your overall costs.

Anyway – some suggestions – there may be others.

Edit: Also see I Stink At Gold Management which is a related recent thread.

[Thehistoryman]

All these suggestions are good though you will probably find the MOST convient of them is just to build courthouses. Always do this first this will greatly reduce your problem if it doesnt fix it completly. Napoleon is very good at outrunning his economic ability(like Rome and a few others) He forgot a good rush to currency is a good idea also.

[InvisibleStalke]

I find this more of a problem at slower speeds - I don't tend to have it on standard, but on Epic will have to watch for overexpansion from taking AI cities too quickly.

50% is a good limit to stop at. If you are down to that point you might want to stop building cities and let the AI fill in the spaces. You can always raze them later for cash or take them after the AI has developed. Of course this may be affected by diplomacy and whether you want to fight them later. At 50% its fairly easy to recover - you have enough science to get to critical techs like currency and COL, and as your cottages grow the problem should fix itself.

Courthouses are not always as good as all that. They will halve your city costs, so check out how much that will save you in a given city. It might be better to get the economy of a city working first.

I tend to build courthouses in cities that have production but little commerce first. Cities with good commerce can usually wait - the payback on growing cottages in my opinion is often better up until you reach the happy cap anyway. (Once you have grown to the cap by all means whip - you can quickly calculate whether a courthouse will be better than a market at that point. Often by that time the market will be better).

Example - if it will cost three people to whip to finish your courthouse. You still have room to grow and work good tiles - so these three people would be working a mix of cottags and hamlets on rivers - maybe 8 coins total. Unless the courthouse saves you at least 8 gold you lose by whipping the courthouse in (its not quite that simple because by reducing pop you also reduce maintenance - but I think you would want to save at least 6 gold in this case). You also lose longer term as your cottages get worked for fewer turns. However once the city starts working less productive tiles, its better to whip away the population to get buildings.

[binhthuy71]

Although it's tempting to destroy an opposition civ in one grand sweep doing so isn't always necessary. It can be downright counterproductive if they have a culturally powerful neighbor. Nothing more annoying than capturing a number of cities and having most of them flip to another civ.

Take a good chunk of their empire and then consolidate, heal units and build more, build your courthouses and then cultural buildings as needed to fill in your borders. They opposition Civ will be crippled enough to be easy pickings when you're ready to zero them..

Peace is only ten turns.

[cabert]

up to prince, i found that razing your direct neighbour down is good. Keep the worthwhile cities, and rebuild.

on monarch, the AIs have more cities than you can swallow, even with an early rush = you can only capture 2. If you take more you'll be far down the drain economically. Which isn't a problem if you're Rome (thanks to moonsinger), but is a bad case of backwardness if you aren't.

SO:
you should NOT own too many cities = don't fill the gaps, raze the worthless AI cities, and then follow cam_h advices (with which i agree, as usual)

[The Lardossen]

The problem is, if you're not big enough in the beginning, the game's going to be real hard for you.


When you're going to war, typically you've just researched writing at that point.

Now this is the big guess:

Are you going to need cats soon?

If I don't research for cats, I have a hard time getting to the capitols of sometimes the first, and most of the time the second civ I attack. But beelining for cats delays the even more crucial beeline for courthouses.

If you're sure you don't need cats, go for CoL straight away. If you're not, go for cats. If you get enough cats amassed, you can pretty much conquer everyone. But you'll need to keep conquering to get enough gold in to pay for your empire (you'll be negative at 0% science) and getting CoL at the same time. I've seen -120 GP at 100% science in my games.

It's a thin line you'll have to walk.


And oh yeah: chop and whip your buildings up till banks.