SGOTM 02 - Pioneer Knights

[MrWhite]

I'm tempted to take Alphabet from Izzy... we could destroy her in 10 turns, Santiago won't be a stronghold anyway.

Alphabet is worth more then having Santiago 10 turns earlier....

BTW nice turnset remconius ! Good to see we only lost 3 units on Madrid and the Forbidden Palace will be ready next turn! Our research will be very nice afterwards.
Lets get on with the growing part.

[remconius]

Interesting idea. Izzy has three techs we dont have. Maybe we could get construction and the alphabet from her and it would really be worth it. Then we crush her 10 turns later.


After the current research we should consider:
-metal casting > Machinery & civil service to get our samurai's
-optics for whale boats

[riptide]

so we go to war with the missing civs with cavalry and cannons rite ?

[remconius]

Well, we shouldnt skip over our unique unit, the Samurai, which I think is pretty powerful (Macemen with 2 first strikes). Its a melee unit and also gets combat I.

I would prefer to go to war with samurai and catapults .

-What that means is we build lots of workers and 4 settlers. We found 4 more production cities.
-Workers slash through the jungle and build cottage at our commerce cities.
-Meanwhile we research Metal casting > Machinery and Civil Service.
-We could get optics in between to discover the world. We need this for astronomy anyway.
-Then while we research astronomy we start mass producing samurais at the 6 production towns and any other town that is done with the essentials. (market, library, granary, barracks, lighthouse, courthouse, aquaduct)
-After Astronomy we should have a plan and build a bunch of galleons, or better, upgrade our galleys.
-Hopefully we have an army of samurai ready to send out and avenge our enemies.

[MrWhite]

Originally Posted by remconius

Interesting idea. Izzy has three techs we dont have. Maybe we could get construction and the alphabet from her and it would really be worth it. Then we crush her 10 turns later.


After the current research we should consider:
-metal casting > Machinery & civil service to get our samurai's
-optics for whale boats

Optics is more important for caravels. We need those to explore the oceans and find the rivals we will conquer!

I don't think Izzy will want to give 2 techs, but we have to check in the save. Even if 1 is possible, I think it is worth the wait of 10 turns. But then we need to decide which one.

[remconius]

I checked the save and it looks like she'll give two.

I guess the path to follow is then:

-> Optics -> Metal Casting -> Machinery -> Civil Service -> Astronomy.

-I think we should only trade for other techs, and research at whatever rate is sustainable during conquest. With courthouses, marketplaces, libraries, lighthouses, we should be in good shape to start our next conquest.

-We should start building Samurai as soon as we have Civil Service. Maybe have a few upgradable galleys (and cash) ready to send out soon as possible.

I never play like this, but I feel it's the way of the warmonger and should lead us to a fast conquest.

[redemption438]

Got it!

I'm back and can play tonight or tomorrow morning. I need to look over all the posts.

I agree that Construction + Alphabet is worth 10 turns of waiting to finish Spain, so I will make this deal for peace if everyone agrees, then let next person declare war again.

Originally Posted by remconius

I guess the path to follow is then:

-> Optics -> Metal Casting -> Machinery -> Civil Service -> Astronomy.

Sounds good!

[MrWhite]

Read what happened the last days and you are ready to go.
The deal will be good for us, then we can set a nice pace in research ourselves with the Forbidden Palace, develop the surroundings with workers etc. You'll read it

All I wanted to say is the deal is good and I already want to say all the things that have been said before. I seem to like the game too much

[redemption438]

OK, here's the plan!

Peace with Issy in return for Alpha + Construction. If I have to give her a tech to get Construction, I will, because she is only going to last about 15 more turns.

Tech path
Actually machinery is required for optics. How about this:
Compass --> Metal Casting --> Machinery --> Optics --> Civil Service --> Astronomy

Builds
I'll take remconius advice and look to switch to workers where the other builds are too long.

Osaka finishes FP in 1 turn. I'll build Library after that. How about going for Chichen Itza in Osaka? We might not get it, but with stone it's less than 24 turns, and it would mean +25% defense in all cities, including an immediate effect on ones that are captured. Or Osaka can pump out workers quickly.

Satsuma needs happiness and will get 2 from a warrior. Currently on courthouse - I will switch to warrior.

Barcelona probably a good spot to build workers, with all the food.

Civics
We have good food surplus in Kyoto, Satsuma, and Barcelona. All of these cities would benefit from Caste System, especially Kyoto which could run 4 scientists or more. (War weariness currently a problem but it will go away after peace.)

So... do we want to keep using food for production through slavery, or use caste system to get more great scientists out of Kyoto? (Some other cities could also run merchants to help the cash balance and keep %science as high as possible.)

Last question - did we decide to leave the barb city for a while? Or should I raze it while exploring?

[remconius]

Trading: After you get alphabet, you could trade for her last techs.

Techs: Too bad we cant get optics sooner, but looks good.

Cities: Maybe Osaka should be a few workers too. Madrid is also excellent for workers because of the heaps of food. You could rush something to get rid of the unhappy citizens. Chitchen Itza is a good plan, perhaps you can pull it off. Maybe in a place like Tokyo, that needs to build nothing else.

Civics: Caste system is a good idea. We could also use Serfdom if we meet someone with feudalism. That would really help clearing the jungle.

Barb city, leave for now. Just park some units outside that have less than 10 xp. We can train them when they step out.

[redemption438]

It was a peaceful turnset, and we met some other folks...

Preturn
Peace with Isabelle for Alphabet and Construction.
Some military movement.
Satsuma switches to Warrior.
Barcelona changes tiles to max food/commerce.
Tokyo work boat and galley go to the fish.

Turn 211 (665 AD)
Forbidden Palace finished! Makes a 40 commerce difference.
Now science at 70% with -5 deficit... happy days!

Work boat drops net on the fish – Tokyo is growing again.
Galley sentry on fish.
Tokyo works fish and starts Chichen Itza (estimate 30-35 turns with Tokyo growth and chopping).
Worker going to Barcelona.
Worker going to Tokyo forest.
Whip courthouse in Madrid. Whip warrior in Satsuma. (Last whipping before Caste System.)
Some military spreading out to explore.
Osaka building Library.

Turn 212 (680 AD)
Satsuma on courthouse.
Madrid building worker.
Worker building sugar plantation at Barcelona.
Change to caste system.

Turn 213 (705 AD)
Adopt Caste System. Kyoto has 5 science specialists , working 3 tiles. This is max science at this happiness level. When next warrior is finished, can add the 4th food tile and grow again.

Turn 214 (710 AD)
Finished currency, researching compass (7 turns).
Barcelona grows to 4, now building worker.
Worker goes to Toledo forest to chop work boat / galley.

Turns 215 – 218. Not much to report.

IBT 218-219. Hello Bismarck! His border expansion brought him into contact with Kyoto. We're roughly even in score and techs.

Turn 219
Trade CoL to Bismarck for Horseback riding.
Sign Open Borders and send Kyoto galley off to scout Bismarck territory.

Turn 220 (800 AD)
Contact with Hatty. Woah! Massive score, a bunch of wonders, and a tech lead. She must be the leader.

Kyoto is happier for some reason, so I put one scientist back to crabbing.

Notes
There's a barb sword about to attack our axe, SE.

The Toledo overspill from chopping is set to go to a galley. There are barb galleys around, and I also don't want to lose the clams as soon as we declare war on Issy again. But it can be changed before end turn if you want.

I left some of the trades for next player.
We can trade seafood to Bismarck for 4gpt.
Hatty will trade Feudalism and gold for Philosophy. She has several other techs too.
I did not yet sign OB with Hatty, up for discussion.

Troops are around Issy ready to take Santiago, which is now +40% on a hill.

Here's a question – with open borders our galleys can cross ocean into Bismarck territory. Is that true if we go to war with him? (Not suggesting this for a while, but just wondering what happens if he declares war on us for some reason.)

Link to save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/ci....Civ4SavedGame

[redemption438]

Roster:

Redemption438
Wanderer <-- Up next
Riptide <-- On deck
Tomason
MrWhite
Remconius
Perincurium (skipped until he returns)

[remconius]

Good turnset

Good to see we are level with Bismarck, and he's close... next war target?
Hatty is big...but also close, I guess we better stay friends with her for now.

Trading Feudalism, opens some interesting options. We can use vassalage when we start military production to produce 6xp units. Also we now have the (difficult) choice:
Slavery - Extra production power in the food only cities (Kyoto, Barcelona, Satsuma)
Serfdom - To clear this large area of jungle (7 turns in stead of 14 for a cottage in the jungle makes a big difference)
Caste System - To assign scientists / merchants for our food cites. And to assign an artist in our new to be found production cities to expand their borders without the need for a missionary.

Guess in the future we need the Caste system for sure. Right now, serfdom could help us clear the jungle, slavery helps build up low production towns and the caste system boosts science and culture in new towns.

I'll have a look at the save tonight.

[remconius]

Originally Posted by redemption438

Here's a question – with open borders our galleys can cross ocean into Bismarck territory. Is that true if we go to war with him? (Not suggesting this for a while, but just wondering what happens if he declares war on us for some reason.)

If we can reach him we should consider rushing/terrorizing him.

Although I do think we should build up and expand first.

[MrWhite]

If I understand correctly the contacts are near Kyoto, they are close to our islands and so not close to our military... Still it is very good to see we have met some others so we can trade!!

The OB with Bismarck is very good so we can explore. Maybe we should sign one with Hatty as well if we need this for exploration. We could also wait for caravels.

Trading feudalism sounds good. But lets see what else there is?
Good to get some gold as well, we can use it for upgrading later on or setting a higher research for now. Can't wait to get home and see the save

Do we feel 4 gpt is enough for our seafood?
Normally I don't do trading vs gold often (only for more gold), but I'm not sure what other people do normally.

Next turnset, I think we should make an end to Spain and develop more. We should find more contacts and decide where we can attack when we are ready. Then we have to decide when we are ready
On civics, I think caste system is best for now. Maybe change to serfdom when we have somewhere between 8-10 workers?

In this strategy it would be best to start the 4 settlers for the new cities soon so they can expand borders before we change civics!

[redemption438]

Originally Posted by MrWhite

Trading feudalism sounds good. But lets see what else there is?

Sadly there's a lot! e.g., she has CS... but won't trade it, if i remember correctly. We have only philosophy to trade to her, but that will change fast with our fast tech pace.

We might want to hang onto some techs until we've met everyone. It would be great to use the techs to start some wars (that we aren't involved in) and slow down the AIs.

Originally Posted by MrWhite

Do we feel 4 gpt is enough for our seafood?
Normally I don't do trading vs gold often (only for more gold), but I'm not sure what other people do normally.

Good question, I don't know how this works out. I usually trade for anything I can get, or use the loan trick to extract more gpt out of the AI, but I haven't done much warmongering. What do other people do?

In this case, because Bismarck is expansive, he is probably not close to his health limits, and/or his happiness limits are lower than health, so giving him seafood won't actually make a difference for him. So 4 gpt seems like an okay deal. In general I think the AIs will trade even if it doesn't really help them.

Trading seafood for happiness would be great for us, but I don't think Bis has any of those resources. Check Hatty. Of course, giving Hatty anything might be a bad idea...

Originally Posted by MrWhite

On civics, I think caste system is best for now. Maybe change to serfdom when we have somewhere between 8-10 workers?

I'm all behind caste system, too - we're going to have stacks of specialists in several cities, and with Kyoto alone it's a major difference.

Btw, we might want to switch to all merchants in Kyoto at some point... if we produce one great merchant and send him off to a distant capital, we'll get enough cash to upgrade most of our forces and crush somebody with a small tech lead. I love the great merchant all-army upgrade! Especially with samurais...

[remconius]

Just had a look at the save, a few notes:

-Both Swordsmen and Axemen upgrade to Samurai. We have 5 promoted Axemen of level 4 and 5. We shouldnt risk those on Santiago. They can move in to mop up.
-Our Rivals dont have philosophy. We should use this tech to get some good techs from them. Lets wait to see if our boat finds more rivals.
-We should trade for happiness with our rivals. Hatty has some happiness resources. We could also trade the eto stone resource with her for happiness.
-Workers. We have 6 and 2 in production. Without Serfdom we'll need at least 10 if not more.
-Settlers - We need more production towns to be ready when we get astronomy. Maybe we should wait with founding them until we get Astronomy as it will slow down science. We could have the settlers ready.
My city suggestions are:
--5S of Osaka (sheep, horse, oasis and 3 hills)
--Further South on the Deer (sheep, fish, copper and hills)
--In the southeast, 2S of the sheep, N of the lake. (sheep, iron, 3xgrass hills)
--East coast on the plains hill or the grass hill. (wheat and several hills)

BRAINWAVE!! Just had a great thought. Once we get Astronomy and Kyoto is hooked up to the iron, we could with cash from a merchant, upgrade our giant horde of warriors in the Kyoto triangle to Samurai. 10-15 Samurai on Bismarck's doorstep

[Wanderer]

got it!

I'll catch up with my reading tonight, post a plan tomorrow...

[Wanderer]

chicken itza build in Tokyo? Is this a cash pre-build? It's got another 32 turns to go...

[Wanderer]

pre-turn notes (nothing changed)
+4gpt on 70% sci [:-)]

spain conquest army = 4 axemen and 2 swordsmen? Anyone mind if I move across the swordsman S of the sheep to make that a 4axe3sword army when I attack in X turns (anyone know how many - when did we declare peace - previous set pre-turn, so probably can declare and attack in 1 turns time.

work queues (current):
Tokyo = chicken Itza (32) ->
Seville = Library (24) ->
Osaka = Library (3) ->
Edo = Library (35) ->
Kyoto = warrior (4) - > galley (? investigate via OB, or defend resources)
Toledo = workboat(1)->
Satsuma = workboat(10)->
Barcelona = worker(6)->
Madrid = worker(6)->

State of the army:
workers: 6
archers: 7
warriors: 5 (all in Kyoto and Satsuma)
swordsmen: 3 (all around Santiago) : 6/10x2, 4/5 x1
axemen: 7 (5 near santiago) : 19/26 x1, 18/26 x1, 16/17 x1, 14/17 x 1, 10/17 x1 , 8/10 x1 (threaten by bar in open plains), 4/5 x1
spearmen: 2
galley: 2

Some thoughts:
-we need more ship to be the sea-based power we will need to be.
-we are a long way from Samurai (37 turns if we bee-line after compass). Is that the plan or do we want to get mobile before we get samurai (i think we need to get mobile, it will open the world to us, and it doesn't help having a big army waiting at home with nothing to do).
-unit costs are at 10 gpt