Great people, specifically engineers and artists...

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

The originating thought on limited great engineers is a good one, and I have read several, who have brought it up. I'd like to see that thought expanded to the great artists that we get now, in v.1.95 with the Taverns.

Greece and other phylosophical civs totally rock now (not really a technical statement, but the adjetive fits.)

I'm not a big fan of the culture victory (not very exciting IMHO) however, I could see how one could really abuse the early great artists, and start dumping them into the three cities that they need for that victory condition.

I believe it was seven, who mentioned the idea of great smithy's or some such, similar to "real" great engineers, but unable to hurry wonders?

Could something similar be done for great artists from taverns...call them something else, and reduce their "culture bomb"?

I do understand that the python and xml scripting might be intense, but these were just some thoughts of mine, in terms of dumbing down the cheese factor.

Thank you again for reading, it's an awesome mod either way

[Seven05]

GP Buildings are pure XML changes really, as are "alternate" GP's from specific buildings. The AI uses most GP's for golden ages (which feel rather useless from the few I've tried in TAM) as we saw with the heroes, I'll have to check into that in the DLL and see if we can alter that choice.

[baptiste]

Originally Posted by kwarriorpoet

I'm not a big fan of the culture victory (not very exciting IMHO) however, I could see how one could really abuse the early great artists, and start dumping them into the three cities that they need for that victory condition.

Without these artists TAM is not very "culture-friendly" since only 1 building allows artists as specialist, and there are much less GP Artist available from wonders.
Cultural Victory is much harder with TAM than with normal game. With TAM, the only way is to rush great engineers in large cities (culture from wonders) and then make many artists with patronage.
Since the "+100% culture" civic is available at the end of the game (vs mid game civics in normal game), cultural victory is still really difficult.

When i play a normal monarch game i wonder "when" will i achieve cultural victory. When i play a TAM-monarch game i wonder "if" i will be able to achieve cultural victory

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

Originally Posted by baptiste

Without these artists TAM is not very "culture-friendly" since only 1 building allows artists as specialist, and there are much less GP Artist available from wonders.
Cultural Victory is much harder with TAM than with normal game. With TAM, the only way is to rush great engineers in large cities (culture from wonders) and then make many artists with patronage.
Since the "+100% culture" civic is available at the end of the game (vs mid game civics in normal game), cultural victory is still really difficult.

When i play a normal monarch game i wonder "when" will i achieve cultural victory. When i play a TAM-monarch game i wonder "if" i will be able to achieve cultural victory

Good point. Early in my experience with TAM, I totally abandoned the culture victory option.

I will also admit that I usually play until I see that I have beaten the game, vice actually getting to the condition. The beginning and middle of the game has always been much more fun for me than the arduous ending.

Perhaps the great artist should be left as is to allow for a cultural victory option, however, I do see how, we now have gone from an impossible condition to an easy one. At least IMHO.

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

Originally Posted by Seven05

GP Buildings are pure XML changes really, as are "alternate" GP's from specific buildings. The AI uses most GP's for golden ages (which feel rather useless from the few I've tried in TAM) as we saw with the heroes, I'll have to check into that in the DLL and see if we can alter that choice.

I see where you are coming from now, Seven. I do think that this is more of an AI issue. The human will exploit it, but the AI doesn't understand the long term value of culture bombs and great wonders or special buildings unless you explicitly program a prefference. This is what I have come to understand from the many mod forums I have lurked through.

I wish you the best of luck in helping the AI. You guys have done an excellent job in terms of now getting them to actually fight and to actually be aggressive.

[thamis]

I actually do like the culture bomb. It adds some unpredictability to the game, a civilization can suddenly lose lots of influence because of it. Thus, I'd like this one to stay.

I was thinking myself that the GA with the tavern is a bit early, but I couldn't think of any better building.

[baptiste]

Originally Posted by thamis

I was thinking myself that the GA with the tavern is a bit early, but I couldn't think of any better building.

Some proposals to solve this point :
- move tavern to urbanization (with barracks hehe) or pottery or currency (with wine) or exploration
- currency or urbanization allows artist with tavern, before that tavern stays as it is now

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

Originally Posted by thamis

I actually do like the culture bomb. It adds some unpredictability to the game, a civilization can suddenly lose lots of influence because of it. Thus, I'd like this one to stay.

I was thinking myself that the GA with the tavern is a bit early, but I couldn't think of any better building.

Yes, I've spent some time thinking about this...you'd have to build in another GA building...but then, I asked myself would that really be worth it? I also asked myself if not the Tavern, then when would I ever build a GA building?

So, I can be more than happy seeing the GA issue removed. Perhaps there really isn't a non-game-breaking fix concerning the GE smithy cheese as some call it.

I don't use it, but I can see the draw, especially on harder levels.

[Hypnotoad]

Here's a simple idea:

What about not allowing engineers with smithies, only with aquaducts? This would give engineers after the masonry wonders.

Sorry if this has been suggested already -- I didn't see it.

-- David

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

Originally Posted by Hypnotoad

Here's a simple idea:

What about not allowing engineers with smithies, only with aquaducts? This would give engineers after the masonry wonders.

Sorry if this has been suggested already -- I didn't see it.

-- David

Yes, I have seen this mentioned previously. I think that is an idea that I read Thamis or one of the other team members actually bring up. I believe they even went so far as to recommend a production boost slightly greater than the carpenter building instead of a great engineer for the smithy.

Along the same vein of thought, I think it would be interesting to get an archer and/or seige weapon bonus from the carpenter building, like a free promotion?

[Jet]

I just tried a Monarch cultural victory and agree that it's much harder than vanilla. Reasons (repeating several already said):
* +100% culture civic is late. You have to research to the end of the tech tree to get it, rather than stalling research early to turn up the culture slider.
* no missionaries, only somewhat offset by free religions
* cathedrals require state religion, making diplomacy harder
* diplomacy harder, AIs more warlike
* +100% GPP civic expensive (can't run Council of Elders = very expensive)
* cash-rush civcs are late (cash rushing temples and esp. cathedrals is popular)
* philosophical +50% rather than +100%
* maybe: slower cottage growth
Slightly easier because
* more low-power culture buildings

Of the two strategies 1. artists and 2. cottages+slider, I think both are harder than vanilla, but cottages+slider is more harder compared to vanilla.

[Seven05]

I suppose the easiest "fix" would be to reduce the culture bomb from 4000 down to maybe 3000.

I haven't tried a culture victory since 1.93, with that version I could get a culture victory by 200AD at the earliest but it was hard. A cultural victory after 450AD was much more reasonable.