The Emperor Masters' Challenge 2 (on Warlords)

aelf said:
That is not exactly true because you still need the necessary buildings for that free specialist to be anything other than a citizen specialist. Unless (I think) we run Caste System.

Eventually these cities will make a profit, and I don't see why we shouldn't settle them. However, they will take time to build the requisite buildings, especially since they are not in fantastic locations.

necessary building = temple! you've got the spiral minaret and sankore uni!
it's really a no-brainer, since you are spiritual too (=cheap temples!)
 
cabert said:
necessary building = temple! you've got the spiral minaret and sankore uni!
it's really a no-brainer, since you are spiritual too (=cheap temples!)

I agree with this. I said that because csarmi said the new cities would give us a free specialist each by just existing, which is only half true.

The temples will take time to be built, though, even at half price. But I have no doubt that the new cities will be a good investment fairly quickly.

I'll be playing the next round today.
 
Difficult Aelf. You need a AI-war to slow down their techpace. The problem is the only AI which can be bribed with tech is Saladin who don't like you AND has a defence pact with Huayna (who needs to be eliminated).

I think you need to focus on GP a little more, since it's your only change to discover a tech first, even though it's still a small chance. The tech can be used for trading but prob. better for bribe. If you attack Huayna, Saladin declares war, giving him another negative modifier with Ghandi and prob Mehemet, which helps them join the war sooner. Saladin is more backward but high in power. A war is needed. If you build enough cats do kill landing stacks you might handle Saladin. If you can get the others to join the war he prob. will be to busy in his homeland anyway. You do need some scouting ships however anyway. Have you build Oxford yet?? And build some monasteries before they are absolete. (The Sankore and Spiral effect still exists from the monasteries after they scientific thinking right?)
 
voek said:
The Sankore and Spiral effect still exists from the monasteries after they scientific thinking right?
no!
the monasteries only have the 2 cpt left and the ability to build missionaries.

My guess would be to tech to astronomy and steel, and go on saladin hunt.
Some lucky shot could maybe bring you in a domination position?
 
Hmm, so the beakers and gold from Sankore and Spiral doesn't count for Monasteries after Scientific Thinking? Bummer. Good to know though. Invading Saladin will prob. be suicide. I would dig in.
 
voek said:
Difficult Aelf. You need a AI-war to slow down their techpace. The problem is the only AI which can be bribed with tech is Saladin who don't like you AND has a defence pact with Huayna (who needs to be eliminated).

You hint at something that I don't think has been mentioned yet. We want to go to war with Huayna, but the problem is he has a defensive pact with Saladin, so war with Huayna means war with both Saladin. Unless the defensive pact can be broken. We've been focusing on getting Huayna to declare war on us, which would indeed break the pact, but there are other ways to break it.

If either Huayna or Saladin declares war on anyone the defensive pact is broken. Are either of them willing to be bribed into war with someone? Even if all we have to offer is a big pile of cash saved up over several turns, that might be a worthwhile investment.

I'm guessing neither of them likes us enough to be interested in fighting a war for us, but maybe if they hate someone else enough, they could be persuaded.
 
Dr Elmer Jiggle said:
You hint at something that I don't think has been mentioned yet. We want to go to war with Huayna, but the problem is he has a defensive pact with Saladin, so war with Huayna means war with both Saladin. Unless the defensive pact can be broken. We've been focusing on getting Huayna to declare war on us, which would indeed break the pact, but there are other ways to break it.

If either Huayna or Saladin declares war on anyone the defensive pact is broken. Are either of them willing to be bribed into war with someone? Even if all we have to offer is a big pile of cash saved up over several turns, that might be a worthwhile investment.

I'm guessing neither of them likes us enough to be interested in fighting a war for us, but maybe if they hate someone else enough, they could be persuaded.

Exactly what i was thinking!
But you'll get another bad modifier from one big guy, if you bribe Saladin against him.
 
cabert said:
Exactly what i was thinking!
But you'll get another bad modifier from one big guy, if you bribe Saladin against him.

Yes, that's true and definitely unfortunate, but it might be necessary. Is it worse to be in a war against Saladin or to have a -1 diplomacy from Gandhi or Mehmed? I'm not sure. Both are bad.

If I recall correctly, the anticipated victory condition is space race, so long term we don't really care who likes or dislikes us as long as we're still able to trade enough to catch up.
 
cabert said:
Exactly what i was thinking!
But you'll get another bad modifier from one big guy, if you bribe Saladin against him.

Yes, but I think we need a Titan war at all cost. At least when the space race is starting. Huayna can't be bribed to war. He is too weak. The only option would be too leave izzy (she isn't death right??) with 1 city and get her to switch religion other then Huayna. Then he might bribed into war with enough tech. After that you can kill him, BUT causing another negative relation modifier.

I think you at least could check out the possibility before whiping out Izzy. What does the red message say at this moment anyway?? Declare war on izzy.

WTF, why don't ask Saladin to attack the poor little Spanish ****?? If she has another religion he won't like her that much AND he is much stronger. It will cost you some, but hey we need a dark ally. He declares war. You join and wait for the mutual struggle. Kill her off and finish Huayna on the way (if needed). Matching religion and civics at the end might do the trick to bribe him into war with the two runaways... :king:
 
voek said:
WTF, why don't ask Saladin to attack the poor little Spanish ****??

Great idea. I've usually found that it's cheaper to get a war ally than to start a war that you aren't involved in. That's another advantage to using Isabella as the target. We can afford to declare against her first, then bring in an ally afterward.
 
Wow, a sudden spate of discussion, just as I was playing the next round. Some good ideas there (especially about getting Saladin to declare war on Izzy), but they are sadly quite impossible to implement. Nobody would agree to anything (Saladin, by the way, was pleased with Izzy).

Anyway, the round has been played, so it's too late in any case. It was quite an eventful one and many things have changed. Watch this space. It's going to be a long update.
 
:cry:

Are you sure Saladin couldn't be brought to another image of izzy? Did they had the same religion/civics? You shouldn't play this fast Aelf :nono: ;) you never no what we will come up with. Curious what DID happen.
 
aelf said:
I agree with this. I said that because csarmi said the new cities would give us a free specialist each by just existing, which is only half true.

They give a citizen (1prod 3 science) by default. And yes, it's only half true. Of course I meant you would build a few buildings (actually a temple or a library already help) anyways - since you have to.
 
Round 14: 1649AD - 1732AD

Again, we've come to a point where punters are divided over the prospect of victory. Or maybe not even divided... If you get what I mean.

We began the round by making another civics switch:



Indeed, our gpt increased. And the newly conquered cities could use the culture boost to fight encroaching borders.

And then it was, once again (and probably for the last time), war against Isabella:



Minimal resistance, as usual:





After the second city (which was razed as planned to make way for two new cities), though, our forces had to rest and regroup before going for the last city.

As Consitution was researched, we made a civics switch once again:



With all the free specialists we had, that immediately shaved one turn off Democracy, though at the cost of slightly higher upkeep.

Before we could make our final move against the continental Spanish, we met the last civ in the game:



So it wasn't destroyed after all. But it isn't that advanced. Mao was Saladin's ally and an enemy of the Mehmed-Gandhi bloc. Looks like war might just break out on the other continent some time in the future ;)

Anyway, I realised that I could make a relatively good trade with Gandhi:



10 gpt for corn is nothing to be sneezed at.

Our next GP, meanwhile, turned out to be a disappointment:



I had hoped for a GS :( I guess Brahms should be saved for a space race Golden Age.

Mao soon got a little cranky:



No, comrade. More because we don't want to annoy Mehmed and Gandhi than anything else. Too bad for you.

Finally, we were able to kick the Spanish off our continent:



Isabella must have had the truth of utter defeat drummed into her after that, for she was willing to give up almost everything for peace:



I thought about for a while. This was too good to resist. Anyway, there would be little profit in capturing her offshore cities later on. On the other hand, accepting her as a vassal would incur negative diplomatic modifiers with the rest of the world. However, when we declare war on Huayna and his ally Saladin, Izzy would be forced to fight alongside us. Her weakness might then entice Saladin to land his forces on her territory instead of ours :devil: Not a bad idea.

[to be continued in the next post...]
 
[continued from previous post]

Right after accepting her terms, I decided to test her willingness to commit to the agreement:



Naturally, she paid up :D

With Democracy in the bag next, we made yet another civics change:



I wonder if I can manage to wean myself off Spiritual after these games :p Anyway, adpoting Emancipation meant that we no longer faced discontent for not doing so. Our cities could continue growing unimpeded, which could only be a good thing. Our cottages, meanwhile, would take half the time to mature now.

I decided to go for Rifling next for military purposes. You never know when one of the AI would decide to declare war and land a cavalry force on our territory.

Anyway, for some odd reason, furious Isabella asked for open borders:



Is such behaviour characteristic of a vassal?

After a while, I realised that she was too backward. She wouldn't be able to resist any army sent by Saladin, and no matter what it would be in our interest that she holds out as long as possible when the war comes. So I decided to help her out a little:



I suppose she should at least have grenadiers when she is attacked. By the way, that little clause that required her to stop trading with Huayna was to prevent her from disseminating those techs to our future victim.

On the following turn, we got a bonus:



Gold was found in one of Madrid's mines. It must be a good omen from the gods. :worship: Confucius, guide us to victory! :worship: Extra happiness and commerce certainly wouldn't hurt.

For some reason I suddenly remembered at that point that you could get you vassal to research something (never had a vassal before. I usually distrust the system). Since we haven't researched Compass (required for Optics, which we want for a caravel advance warning system), I thought why not make her research that and then trade for it:



I'm not sure if angry vassals are willing to trade, though. Could I at least extort it from her? If neither are possible, what's the point of asking them to research something?

The round ended after we've researched Rifling.

The GNP graph now:



I know I've poured scorn on this weird graph, but it's interesting to see that ours declined markedly and is now back on a slow rise. Was it because of the war? But how does war relate to GNP exactly? A few unhappy and whipped citizens are enough to cause such a change?

The power graph:



Our power ratings are climbing at a faster rate since we have upgraded our CR III units to grenadiers and are building more and more of those. As we start mass producing rifles next, it should increase even more rapidly. And then we'd probably be ready to take on Huayna-Saladin.

This is how we stand in terms of technological advancement:



It seems we're beginning to catch up. Can we keep it up and eventually surpass them? I think we can, especially since our newer cities are going to be developed.

The map of the continent right now:



Huayna's next, I suppose. I think he owns too big a chunk of territory for us not to bother. Certainly the addition of the SW city, right now a blemish in our empire, would be good.

So what do you think should come next? I've spelled out my intentions of mass producing rifles and then declaring war on HC. Our grenadier/trebuchet army should be able to take care of him, while rifles and other grenadiers can defend against Arab landing parties (hope they are not too large, though). any alternative suggestions or comments?

What should we research next? I'm thinking of grabbing Economics and then Corporation en route to Assembly Line for factories and Infantry. Then maybe Steel -> Railroads -> Combustion before finally going for Scientific Method en route to Industrialism. After that bee-line to Rocketry and then to Robotics. I have a nasty feeling somebody will build the Apollo Program soon (like in the previous Emperor Challenge). I hope superior output plus Space Elevator can beat them to the launch.

One more thing, we've settled all the cities in the dotmap except for Red D (took a bit of planning to prevent the Ottoman settler from planting a city in the SE first). Any other spots you think we should settle?
 
voek said:
Noooo vazallll.... well guess you have played anyway.

Why? Please elaborate.

cabert said:
don't forget the happiness from having a vassal!
Don't forget to sell her everything and to extort all she has (map is done, tech is done, now for ressources ;) )

How do you do that? No matter how I tried I couldn't get her to give more than the 3 gpt she has. And she has no resources I can demand.
 
disclaimer : i'm a monarch level player, and i like the underdog fights. Don't pay too much attention to my advice ;)

I'd go for HC ASAP. Saladin will come to you, and with a bit of luck some of his enemy AIs will dogpile on him. If you can mow HC fast enough, you may get him to as another vassal. Financial vassals are good ;). That should stop saladin, if you give him a hard time.

I really think you should try to tech or trade for astronomy fast, now.
 
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