The Emperor Masters' Challenge 2 (on Warlords)

Dr Elmer Jiggle said:
This is a real pet peeve of mine -- the way the AI will ask for ridiculous favors. They really ought to put a sanity check on those where they'll only ask for something that they would offer to you if the tables were turned. Or at least something that they would almost but not quite offer to you if the tables were turned.

Conversely, I'd like to be able to red out techs that I'm not willing to trade because "We're not ready to trade these away". Or red out techs because I don't like that particular AI enough, for that matter.
 
A bigger pet peeve of mine is where the AI will ask for the same gift every 5 or 6 turns, with a Rufused to Help Us each time.
 
Wow... Interest has fallen to a new low. Two replies in total one day after a long and eventful update? :shake:

I'm eager to end this long and draggy challenge too, folks. Need your advice on how to do so. :help: :please:
 
aelf said:
I'm eager to end this long and draggy challenge too, folks. Need your advice on how to do so. :help: :please:

I think you sort of answered your own question near the end of your last update.

You didn't show the victory conditions screen, but you did say that a diplomatic victory isn't possible, so I'll assume you're right. Does that mean that Mehmed or Gandhi is #2 in population? Or is Mehmed the problem, since he's only cautious? Maybe there's something you can do (civics change, bribe into Free Religion, culture pressure on Kolhapur so you can take over a Hindu city and turn Hindu, ...)? Maybe you can use spies to sabotage health and happiness resources to reduce the #2 man's population and change your opponent? If those don't seem reasonable, then OK, let's assume diplomatic is out.

Conquest is either out or too annoying. I don't have a feel for Emperor mode and how feasible conquest would be at this point, but for the sake of argument, let's say you could do it. Then why wouldn't you just go for domination instead? Right. And that's why conquest is out.

So about domination ... from a visual inspection of the world, I'd guess you currently have about 45% of the landmass. Killing off Saladin should be easy at this point. As you said, he ruined himself in the last war. Factoring in cultural pressure from Mehmed, that would get you another 10% or so. That puts you in striking range of domination if you attack China, clear off your continent, and/or take over the islands. Oh, and don't forget (I did) that you get credit for half of your vassals in both diplomatic and domination wins. That probably won't matter much -- what do they have? One tile each? But it's still worth remembering. I think this is possible but maybe a stretch.

Last but not least, that leaves space race, which you already said is probably the best choice. I agree. The path to a space race victory is pretty much as you outlined. Get Industrialism for aluminum. Get Rocketry for the Apollo Program. Get Computers for labs. Then you need both Robotics and Satellites for the Space Elevator. I'm never sure about which should come first, but I usually do Robotics and think I should have done Satellites instead. Getting Satellites first lets you put a few mid-level cities on the thrusters while you take care of other stuff. Some people go for Plastics to get the dam. I prefer to just build coal plants where I need them and forget about wasting 1750 hammers (times 1.5 if this is Epic) on a wonder. At that point with forge, factory, and coal plant, you can build any health buildings in no time if you really need them, or just build a farm. Other than that, prioritize whatever technologies unlock the most expensive space race parts (engine) so you can get working on them.
 
Dr Elmer Jiggle said:
I think you sort of answered your own question near the end of your last update.

I did? :D

Dr Elmer Jiggle said:
You didn't show the victory conditions screen, but you did say that a diplomatic victory isn't possible, so I'll assume you're right. Does that mean that Mehmed or Gandhi is #2 in population? Or is Mehmed the problem, since he's only cautious? Maybe there's something you can do (civics change, bribe into Free Religion, culture pressure on Kolhapur so you can take over a Hindu city and turn Hindu, ...)?

You're right, the problem is Mehmed is #2. Although we may be able to get Gandhi to vote for us and Izzy has no choice but to do so, there's still Saladin and Mao, who have sizeable populations.

Dr Elmer Jiggle said:
So about domination ... from a visual inspection of the world, I'd guess you currently have about 45% of the landmass. Killing off Saladin should be easy at this point. As you said, he ruined himself in the last war. Factoring in cultural pressure from Mehmed, that would get you another 10% or so. That puts you in striking range of domination if you attack China, clear off your continent, and/or take over the islands. Oh, and don't forget (I did) that you get credit for half of your vassals in both diplomatic and domination wins. That probably won't matter much -- what do they have? One tile each? But it's still worth remembering. I think this is possible but maybe a stretch.

Killing off Mao and Saladin is tempting, but it will take time and much effort before we could invade them without getting crushed by their counterattack (maybe with the help of Mehmed). And I'm not sure if we can get domination before Gandhi launches his spaceship. So it's a gambit. Either domination or lose. But then again, the other option is either space victory or lose :p The latter is a much less taxing effort, though.

Dr Elmer Jiggle said:
Last but not least, that leaves space race, which you already said is probably the best choice. I agree. The path to a space race victory is pretty much as you outlined. Get Industrialism for aluminum. Get Rocketry for the Apollo Program. Get Computers for labs. Then you need both Robotics and Satellites for the Space Elevator. I'm never sure about which should come first, but I usually do Robotics and think I should have done Satellites instead. Getting Satellites first lets you put a few mid-level cities on the thrusters while you take care of other stuff. Some people go for Plastics to get the dam. I prefer to just build coal plants where I need them and forget about wasting 1750 hammers (times 1.5 if this is Epic) on a wonder. At that point with forge, factory, and coal plant, you can build any health buildings in no time if you really need them, or just build a farm. Other than that, prioritize whatever technologies unlock the most expensive space race parts (engine) so you can get working on them.

You've outlined the possibilities very well. However, I'm still trying to fit Biology and Communism into the picture, considering how we might need the extra population and spies. It's not easy, though, and I'm not sure we can trade for them in time for them to make much difference. Decisions, decisions. This is why I'm so eager to read more replies.
 
aelf said:

Yes. You said ...
Now the question boils down to this: Are we larger enough than any of them (especially Gandhi) to catch up and win? Diplomatic victory is not quite possible, so it will have to be a space victory.

You're right, the problem is Mehmed is #2. Although we may be able to get Gandhi to vote for us and Izzy has no choice but to do so, there's still Saladin and Mao, who have sizeable populations.

After looking at it again, I think for diplomatic to be realistic, you would need both Gandhi and Mehmed's votes, which means #2 would need to be either Saladin or Mao, and that ain't gonna happen.


You've outlined the possibilities very well. However, I'm still trying to fit Biology and Communism into the picture, considering how we might need the extra population and spies. It's not easy, though, and I'm not sure we can trade for them in time for them to make much difference. Decisions, decisions. This is why I'm so eager to read more replies.

Those two are probably fairly critical. Communism maybe more so, for State Property and its inherent production benefits. Won't Gandhi trade you one of them for Assembly Line? Assembly Line is more expensive than either of those technologies, though maybe he's already 90% of the way there. I think that devalues the technology for the AI.

At any rate, it looks like you've caught up to the point where it's not out of the question that you can research something they want and trade it. Obviously you want to be careful about helping Gandhi too much, but if you're getting something you need out of the trade, then it's probably worth it. Then cut him off ...

Don't forget the trick of goading the AI into a war in order to slow down their space race. At that point, you don't even care if they start winning and growing super powerful. The point is just to distract them and get them into running a military economy. Gandhi might be too much of a pacifist for that to work, unfortunately.
 
If you go for the Space Race you would still probably want to build and miantain a large military to dissaude attacks and also to allow you to launch a spoiling attack on any player ahead of you in the Space Race.

Before researching towards Industrialism and then on towards the Space Race (which I guess is your strategy) I'd get Railroad and Biology to boost the economy. Railways will allow fast movement of troops, that means any invasion can be repelled, and equally useful the boost to hammers in many cities using lumbermills and mines. Biology will allow you to grow some of the smaller and weak cities you picked up from Izzy and HC. It will also let you run more specialists in your best cities. Both these technologies will be needed for a successful Space Race or Domination anyway so either research them or trade for them :)
 
UncleJJ said:
Before researching towards Industrialism and then on towards the Space Race (which I guess is your strategy) I'd get Railroad and Biology to boost the economy. Railways will allow fast movement of troops, that means any invasion can be repelled, and equally useful the boost to hammers in many cities using lumbermills and mines. Biology will allow you to grow some of the smaller and weak cities you picked up from Izzy and HC. It will also let you run more specialists in your best cities. Both these technologies will be needed for a successful Space Race or Domination anyway so either research them or trade for them :)

I agree. In fact, I've determined that researching Biology asap would be a great help to us. Railroads would be researched soon too to help with production. It is unlikely, however, that we would need those rails for military purposes. It don't think anyone will seriously attack us now.
 
Dr Elmer Jiggle said:
Don't forget the trick of goading the AI into a war in order to slow down their space race. At that point, you don't even care if they start winning and growing super powerful. The point is just to distract them and get them into running a military economy. Gandhi might be too much of a pacifist for that to work, unfortunately.

I think Gandhi is the main problem, and yes he's too much of a pacifist for that to work.
 
First of all keep up the good work on these writeups Aelf. Don't be discouraged by the lack of replies. For every reply there are many more lurkers like me waiting for each update.

As far as the game goes, I think you need a war with Ghandi to slow him down enough for your space victory. If I remember correctly, dosen't he have a city on your continent? A quick war, taking his city and suing for peace before reinforcements arrive can't hurt you catch up in the space race.
 
Don't forget it was weekend Aelf... Good job on fending off those villains. I think it was funny you slipped in the notion Ghandi already build the Apollo Program... It depens on how fast he will build the first part but being the louzy pacifist he is, it will prob. be soon, since he doesn't care for a large army. This is concerning. You gonna need spies soon! Biology and Communisme are indeed very much needed, prob before anything else.

I would prepare for a invasion anyway. Saladin first, because he is hated the most and Mehemet attacked him before and will prob help you again. Together you can invade Saladin. Mao can be next after you have set foot on the other continent. You need spies to delay Ghandi. Starve his pop. first. Although your relation may suffer it doesnt matter that much. He prob. won't attack you anyway. Practical you need lots of canons rightnow. Arti is on the way too rocketry so you can upgrade later.

Although I am still not very certain if a invasion can be pulled of, I am curious for you current pop/land ratio.

I would prepare a recon party in any case. Do you you have any subs or even caravels to spy on Saladin?
 
voek said:
Don't forget it was weekend Aelf...

What happened to the Civ fanatics? Who are you? What did you do to them?! :mischief:

I guess I forgot that people do have social lives :p Well, I usually go out during the weekdays (hate those weekend crowds) and play my games on the weekends. Besides, there's also the difference in time zones.

That said, I was doing stuff by my schedule and played on Sunday. I considered the advice given by Dr Elmer and UncleJJ and charted a path towards space victory. I was pretty much set on going the space race way, using spies or violence if necessary. Domination seemed quite impossible since both Mao and Saladin seemed to be pretty powerful and conquering them (without risking Mehmed grabbing too much land from them) would be a difficult and exhausting affair.

So with these considerations in mind, I played the game and got interesting results. I will be posting the update later.
 
Joemama said:
First of all keep up the good work on these writeups Aelf. Don't be discouraged by the lack of replies. For every reply there are many more lurkers like me waiting for each update.

Well, in that case, to all you lurkers out there: Thanks and do give your comments from time to time. The weight of your opinions can help decide in situations where people are divided over the best course to take.

And welcome to Civ Fanatics, Joe! :) :king: ;)
 
aelf said:
What happened to the Civ fanatics? Who are you? What did you do to them?! :mischief:

I read during the week and also play during the weekend (well also during the week ;)), but when I have the choise to play at home or exploring the civfanatics forum I choose playing! And I should I think :)

I am playing an immortal game with Egypt now btw. Great fun!

Anyway, I don't agree that Saladin and Mao are that strong. Saladins power is even way lower compared to yours. A gang war against him should be fairly easy. About Mehemet grabbing too much land. You can try to time your assault. You have open borders with Mehemet right? So follow his stack of doom and grab the city after his initial attack. It can be done, at least most of the times. Together with Mao land (later on) you should have more then enough anyway.

Well I know you already played, but just for the discussion on strategic possibilities. Space still can be pulled off, but you gonna need those spies fast.
 
Round 16: 1810AD - 1880AD

First of all, sorry for not waiting for more replies. Since I had time to play the game during the weekend, I considered the advice I got and charted the way towards space victory. Espionage and war were on the cards, if it came to those. The research plan was:

Biology -> Electricity -> Industrialism -> Railroads -> Combustion -> Flight (traded for Artillery) -> Rocketry -> Plastics -> Radio -> Computers (as it turned out, traded for Communism) -> Robotics -> Satelites

Why Biology first? Many of our large cities could grow but was doing so very slowly. The extra food would greatly help growth empire wide since the smaller cities would also benefit from it. This would translate to a growth in output and commerce, more of which are what we need to win the space race. Railroads would also go towards improving output, and in addition it would help with defense in the case of future invasions.

Then why Flight instead of Artillery? I noticed that none of the advanced civs had Flight, so I thought that would be a good tech to research and trade away (high value), plus it led to Rocketry as well. I wanted to trade for at least Artillery (to cut down the research time of Rocketry) and Communism with it.

So I began.

The first thing that happened was we finally got another GS (in Thebes, which had been storing GP points with its wonders and a few specialists):



He was sent to Madrid to build an Academy. Rather late, I know, but at this point lightbulbing a tech would only save us 2 or 3 turns of research. An Academy at our teeming commerce city would, I reasoned, give us more benefit in the long term in our quest to catch up.

Then Mao came and made his demand:



Just another one of those. Bugger off, comrade.

We got our next GP shortly after:



Now we can have a golden age when we need one.

Gandhi came along next with this deal:



We weren't exactly running into happiness problems yet, so I rejected it. I figured it would only make Gandhi stronger at this point.

And guess who came next?



I was getting bored of his 'requests'. Didn't he take the hint? I guess since he was at war with Mehmed, he thought he could get a free ride to help him along. Well, that's just too bad for him.

Two turns later, it was Mehmed who came for assistance, but in a different way:



I decided to make him happy. Anyway, it was time for Mao to pay for his many insults to the Holy Egyptian Empire.

We switched civics since we were pumping out units again:



No telling where Mao would land, so Nationalism was just in case.

Mao did land on our shores, and on the same spot:



Gaul was going to starve again. It's a hot spot for tourists, huh? This time, however, we didn't need to draft units. Our counter attack was devastating enough:



And we got another GG for our efforts:



He went to Huamanga to be another GMI, making the city our military centre, in between its wonder builds.

His invasion force once again annihilated, Mao had no choice but to seek peace:



He must be getting quite a beating at home too. He wouldn't give us the tech, though. But he agreed to give us all his gold and 10 gpt.

We switched our civics back to help with empire development:



Notice we were still in Nationalism? I forgot about that! :eek: We only switched back (accidentally) later thanks to the UN. And unbeknownst to me, it actually helped our larger cities keep themselves happy later on when I've traded for all the happiness resources that Gandhi and co. could offer (before he had Hit Singles and Movies). Would that affect our chances at victory? I hope not.

We got another GS next (we were running many specialists in our larger cities that had no more tiles to work for a while now):



Where were you guys all the while before this round? I guess this one would help by lightbulbing a useful tech. There's no candidate effective enough for an Academy now.

[to be continued in the next post...]
 
[continued from previous post]

Our Flight gambit did not work as well as expected. Gandhi got Flight before us, but at least we could trade it to Mehmed:



Our next GP was a prophet:



Could he be used for another Golden Age? I hope so. Anyway, having many cities producing GPP can pay off, as seen by the rapid succession of GPs we were getting.

We made another tech trade, more for the gold than the tech:



It might seem like a lopsided deal, but I wasn't worried about Mehmed. If we could beat Gandhi, Mehmed would be nothing.

Oh, Gandhi built the UN a couple of turns ago. Now came the elections:



Look, we had enough votes to vote ourselves Secretary General :lol: Talk about pointless elections.

And, guess what! Since Gandhi had adopted Free Religion, Mehmed is now friendlier to us and voted for us:



Our efforts to please him had paid off. Would he vote for our victory, though? He was only 'Pleased', but he did have more than +8 worth of diplomatic modifiers towards us in total.

I decided to give it a try...

And...



:king:

Wow. What an anti-climax :p Gandhi dug his own grave.

Now for the end game bit...

[continued in the next post...]
 
[continued from previous post]










Looks like we did have a fairly good chance at domination, as Voek has pointed out, going by the power graph. The GNP graph may mean that, ultimately, we might not be able to catch up with Gandhi if we go for a space victory. But I think we should be able to.



Thebes got an honourable mention there, that's all. We haven't built the Three Gorges Dam yet, but Huamanga was 1 turn from completing it.



Our score this time is significantly lower than the Mansa game. I guess the earlier victory date of that game (1806 vs 1880) made a big difference.

The map of our continent in the end:



So it is a diplomatic victory once more. But are we going to settle for it? I'm not. The point of this game is to show the potential (or lack thereof) of a religion-oriented strategy. To really prove it, we must catch up with Gandhi and win the space race :cool:

As far as victory is concerned, it has been achieved. Now, I want to go on with our research. Who's with me?

I loaded the last autosave and chose to put something else to vote for rather than Diplomatic Victory. The save on that turn is uploaded here. I've played a few turns after the save in my impatience, but there's nothing much yet besides voting for Free Speech (which changed us out of Nationalism without my realising it at that time) and starting on the Space Elevator (which in Warlords needs Satelites). You can play along and give it a try to see if a space victory is possible. Good luck!
 
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Darn stupid Gandhi! :lol:

I was on the edge, expecting a tight space race, then this... aelf, you'd make a good politician. There's no way you wouldn't be elected! :D

If you're still motivated, and it seems that you are, I'd love to see the space race conclusion.

Again, good job on the diplomatic front! :goodjob:
 
It's interesting that Isabella voted for you. She doesn't hate you? Maybe you gifted her so many technologies that you turned her around? And I guess Free Religion helps a lot with relations with Isabella in any game.
 
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