The Emperor Masters' Challenge 3 (on Warlords)

I agree with lilnev on both points. Washington only has one cottage atm, so the bureaucracy bonus will not be huge initially. With it's wonders it is a much better site for NE. Once GL and ToA are obsolete, a beeline to biology will enable you to support at least 7 specialists in Washington. GPs are more powerful earlier in the game: exploit the gpps as soon as you can. 2 or 3 early GMs, GProphs or GSs will help your the economy just as much as Bureaucracy, unless you cottage up Washington asap.

To exploit Beauracracy you may want to move the capital. But by that point you will be close to astronomy and hence close to war with Brennus. Vassalage may be a better civic at that stage. After the war switching to free speech may be a better option, unless you have a well-developed capital site. Those Arabian gem or dye cities may be good, but it is hard to tell unless I open up the save.

Great game so far.

lilnev said:

Sounds good. Go for it.


The main reason not to use your capital as a GP farm is that Bureaucracy wants you to be working tiles whereas NE wants you to be picking up citizens as specialists. In this case, I feel like we get more than enough from doubling the GPPs due to the wonders and associated free specialists to make it worth living with that tension. It might even be feasible to move our palace to a city that can better leverage Bureaucracy some day (though that loses the ToA-capital trade routes synergy).

peace,
lilnev

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On top of this excellent point, a GP farm needs, well, farms in order to run specialists. But to benefit from Bureaucracy, you want to be working as many cottaged tiles as possible to take advantage of the civic's commerce boost.

hey Godel, welcome aboard.

for those of you who really know me this will be quite a shock. Let's stay focused:

Anyway, yes, the trade route economy the focus of this game. Why? I think many amateur players, myself included, do not pay much attention to this aspect of the game. We are obsessed with cottages, specialists and commerce multipliers and we take trade routes for granted. Sure, we research techs like Currency and Corporation for the extra trade routes and we may switch to Free Market with the vague idea that it benefits our economy. But do we even glance at the little box in the city screen that says "Trade Routes"? Do we build harbours at the right time to increase the numbers there? Do we realise just how much benefit the Great Lighthouse and the Temple of Artemis, with their bonuses to trade routes, can give to our economy? Do we research Astronomy early to reap the benefits of overseas trade routes?

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and aelf, by no means do I wish to threadjack, but have you considered how castles will fit into all of this?

anyway, to get to the point, strategic thinking is good, but we need some tactical discussion about the grand plans. the focus is trade routes. need to max those out within the parameters of the game.

much of the recent discussion is GPP. switch that to trade route maximization. Godel's got us a good start. I don't think we can afford the effort to move the palace.

now as for cottaging up washington...that sounds like a plan.

xpost with sisiutil

Well, guys, I've played the next round. Update will be posted here tonight, as well as some possible answers to the questions being asked here. Stay tuned.

Round 5: 450AD - 820AD

So can we or can we not raze Damascus? We would be finding out almost immediately:



I decided not to sign peace with Saladin because waiting any longer might remove that option from us. If we sign peace and give it away, Saladin might be able to put up some defenses in Damascus, and with 40% cultural defense that would prove to be very troublesome.

So, after cease fire had been signed and Damascus returned to its former owner, it's time to prove how untrustworthy we Americans are :



By the way, I decided to research Monarchy next, since it took relatively fewer turns to research and we could use the HR happiness bonus and hook up the wines. We would trade for Calendar later on, maybe with Currency or CoL.

Anyway, we got our answer to the Damascus question next:



And, ironically, the one who did the deed was the axeman whipped out in Damascus.

While the war continued and our stack marched on Najran, we completed yet another wonder in Washington:



With marble hooked up, that one was just too tempting to pass up

Najran fell and was razed:



It had a CG2 archer and a spearman, I think, and 40% cultural defense. We lost 2 CR1 axes and a CR2 axe (one catapult scuicide bombed our stack the turn before). Ouch. Would've been worse if we attacked Medina, though.

Meanwhile, I kept checking the trade screen and on that turn I noticed that Brennus suddenly had IW, which we couldn't extort from Saladin (redded out). I tried to see if we could trade for that and Calendar with Construction and Literature. Unfortunately, the Irishman is quite a tight-fisted guy. But this deal was possible:



I had to pause quite a while to think this deal over. We had researched 4 turns of Monarchy. Trading for it seems to be wasting 4 turns of research. However, the AI seems to know if you've researched part of a tech and is more willing to trade that tech to you, so maybe this deal was possible because of that. And if we got Monarchy 8 turns earlier, we could benefit from the HR happiness boost (not to mention hook up the wines) and lift out cities out of their small and unhappy state 8 turns earlier. Normally, I wouldn't trade techs that have been partly researched, but this time the benefits were great enough. Well, Brennus is a stingy bastard, but I guess that deal was acceptable.

Time to switch civics:



Since we're not Spiritual this time, we can't change civics immediately every time we get a new one. Also, this is normal speed, where changing 1 civic or 2 civics would both incur 1 turn of anarchy each. So the change to OR had to wait till now to minimize turns spent in anarchy.

And after our stack pillaged the gem mines near Baghdad, it defeated an attacking catapult and we got our first Great General:



It's old king Gustavus. As agreed, he would create a Medic III warlord unit.

Now that we had gotten all the incentives we could get in this war, it's time to discuss a temporary peace settlement:



This time, Saladin was willing to offer 2 techs and gold. Looks like continuing the war was more worthwhile than signing peace earlier after all. I tried asking for Theology, Currency or Calendar, but had no luck with that. So I agreed to this deal.

[to be continued in the next post...]

aelf said:

So, after cease fire had been signed and Damascus returned to its former owner, it's time to prove how untrustworthy we Americans are :

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I've never used a cease fire in any of my games. Are there any negative consequences to breaking one? The manual makes it sound like there aren't, but then they seem kind of pointless or at least very one-sided.

Will he be less likely to accept another cease fire deal later? Do you get an extra diplomatic ding from him?

[continued from previous post]

So now it's time to build up our economy and prepare for the next war by building some catapults.

Our Flanking I chariot managed a lucky retreat attacking an archer at low odds earlier and gained a level. I decided that this would be the Medic III unit. Yes, it needed Combat I to get to the Medic promotions, but with +20 exp, it would need just 1 more exp to become level 6 and get Medic III. We could use a medic unit for our next war, and using a chariot for this purpose means the unit would have 2 movement points and almost no chance to defend in a stack and die.

So the chariot got promoted:



By the way, we researched Currency after Monarchy because CoL wasn't available until we got Priesthood from Saladin. After discovering it, I checked if we could trade it for Calendar:



Brennus liked his Calendar a lot, I guess. Must be really useful for forecasting every year's Winter Solstice Getting Calendar is good for Boston, so I agreed and tried to see if we could recover our money by asking for a gift of 50 gold after that. Unfortunately, he's not so generous with his help this time Well, too bad. CoL was researched next for the cheap courthouses.

Then we got our next GP, a GE:



I had expected a GM or a GS. We got a GE by luck, I guess. I wonder what he can be used for. Rushing a wonder (Sankore/Kremlin/Pentagon)? Or lightbulbing Machinery? I'm leaning towards the latter option because Machinery is not cheap, highly valued by the AI and does not lie along the Education/Liberalism route.

Anyway, Damascus Relocated was built 1 tile east to get the fish:



And Brennus came to us offering a trade:



That reminded me. I hadn't been checking the resource trade screen. That shouldn't have been the case, especially since we could do with more happiness. Luckily our cities hadn't grown into the post HR and wine (heh ) happiness caps yet so we didn't lose out from this mistake.

This round ended after the discovery of CoL. Our 3 core cities have built several catapults and a few of them are still moving towards Mecca, the base from which our next campaign against Medina would be launched.



I am switching our core cities to economic builds (market in Washington and courthouses in New York and Boston). Once most of the catapults we have reach Mecca, we should be ready for the next war. And, as you can see, Mecca's borders have expanded thanks to the library we chopped there and the city can work the mined gems soon for more economic boost.

This is how we stood technologically:



We have CoL on both Saladin and Brennus and the latter has nothing on us. What should we research next? Metal Casting for cheap forges? CS for Bureaucracy? The latter would improve our economy, which I think is quite important right now.

Speaking of that, there's also the question of a bigger research strategy. We are playing a trade route game, so getting intercontinental trade routes up quickly is important. We can go the Education route (CS -> Paper -> Education) and get Liberalism to grab Astronomy as free tech. But we need Optics for that, for which we need Metal Casting, Compass and Machinery (and again I stress that the GE can help with the last ). Now, which is more important, Bureaucracy earlier or Optics earlier (and a chance and circumnavigating the world, of which the resultant +1 naval movement would be useful for future intercontinental campaigns)? Something to think about there. Remember, we have no idea how advanced the other continent is so circumnavigating the world and getting Liberalism are both chancey endeavours.

Here's the map of our continent:



The southern coast of the continent is falling into our hands, but Brennus is controlling much of the rest of the continent. We will need to take him down asap, which makes establishing contact and trade routes with the other continent even more urgent. Saladin's culture seems to have disappeared from around the stone city site, so Brennus might now be controlling that part too. I'm sending a unit there to check it out.

Anyway, regarding the NE issue, Mecca is looking like a decent GP farm site (1 corn, 1 clam and irrigated grasslands) so we can build the NE there if we want to have more control of the GPs we get in the later part of the game. Or if we want to exploit the many (different) GPPs we are already getting in Washington, we could build the NE there now. Any thoughts on that?

Dr Elmer Jiggle said:

I've never used a cease fire in any of my games. Are there any negative consequences to breaking one? The manual makes it sound like there aren't, but then they seem kind of pointless or at least very one-sided.

Will he be less likely to accept another cease fire deal later? Do you get an extra diplomatic ding from him?

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There is no other consequence besides getting a further -3 from Saladin for declaring war on him another time. It's not pointless. Cease fire allows you to get peace without making any commitments. I agree it's quite unfair to the AI, but I guess what balances it is you can't get anything from a cease fire deal. Once you ask for tech or something, it becomes a peace treaty.

There is some kind of AI rule where they'll only trade with you if they know at least 2 other civilizations (including you). This means that if you knock Saladin out completely, which I assume you're aiming to do, Brennus will stop trading. I don't know if he'll cancel existing trades (I doubt it), but he won't trade you any technologies. It seems like that puts one more check on the plus side for researching Optics.

Dr Elmer Jiggle said:

if you knock Saladin out completely, which I assume you're aiming to do.

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I did say we shouldn't do this in an earlier post. We should let Saladin keep a harmless city or two so that we can continue trading techs with Brennus until we make contact with the other continent.

aelf said:

I did say we shouldn't do this in an earlier post. We should let Saladin keep a harmless city or two so that we can continue trading techs with Brennus until we make contact with the other continent.

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Good work with Damascus

Medina and Baghdad both look worthwhile acquisitions now that you've got cats, so I'd Leave Saladin with Kufah. It's a useless tundra city that'll get crushed by Washington's culture even if it becomes his capital. It's hard to tell from looking at the map, but does Baghdad have enough food to work all those resource tiles? It might be worth building another settler to relocate it slightly if it doesn't.

As far as GPP go, I'd be inclined to build the NE in Washington and cottage Mecca. The strategy this time doesn't depend too much on generation of particular great people and it will boost the effect of the GL, which can only be a good thing. As for research and use of the GE, I'd say get metal casting next as the AI values it highly for trade purposes and industrious makes the forges cheap (with the gems adding another happy from them), then research CS for bureaucracy, which will make researching the bit of machinery not covered by the GE faster. By delaying use of the GE, your population's likely to grow too, which means he'll net you more beakers.

I agree with patagonia, the NE in Washington seems a good placement. It will take too long to get Mecca or Medina set up as a rival GP farm. A couple more grassland farms, after CS, will make Washington a more productive city under Bureaucracy and you can choose whether to run specialists or whip for hammers. With the trade routes already giving good commerce there is less need to develop cottages in Washington.

Incidentally Medina has Stonhenge as an additional source of GP GPPs to add to the Shrine. Saladin hasn't built the Christian shrine yet... it would be interesting to look back to when he produced the last GP. Stonehenge will take him 100 turns to make a second GP. I looked at the event log and Stonehenge was built in 1680 BC and Christianity founded in 250 AD. I'm not sure how many turns that is but I guess we'd have a to wait a long time for him to get another GP unless he uses a temple and priest to boost GPP production. On that basis I say take Medina asap and use our prophet for the shrine. With Stonehenge giving 2 GPP, the Shrine 1, and the ability to run 3 priests we should be able to make another GP fairly easily in competition with Washingtons GPP production (with or without the NE there)

Taking Medina will also ensures access to iron. Our other source is in danger of being snaffled up by Brennus's city Durnovaria (which has Judaism and hence at least 1 culture / turn) before we get another expansion from New York (about 20 turns at present rate).

aelf said:

The southern coast of the continent is falling into our hands, but Brennus is controlling much of the rest of the continent. We will need to take him down asap, which makes establishing contact and trade routes with the other continent even more urgent.

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Quite. In the last challenge the first visitor from the other continent appeared in 1250, which is less than 450 years away on the present game (and there's always a chance they could arrive earlier this time). If a visitor should make friends with Brennus before we finish the job, it could prove detrimental to diplomatic relations and our trade profits (especially since the first arrival would surely be a powerful civ).

Since we need to stay on good terms with Brennus until we discover the other continent (I believe we have to be able to see their cities to get trade routes to them - is this true?), the window of opportunity for the optimum war against him is likely to be very small.

So, imho, we need to get to optics asap, whilst preparing a monster army to swiftly unite the continent under our enlightened tyrant.

ps. Nice job so far aelf. I especially liked the 'Damascus correction'. Is that what they call 'realpolitik'?

pps. Just checked the first challenge, and found that the first visitor arrived in 980, so I guess that window could turn out to be even smaller.

What can be done (or has already been done) to keep Saladin from becoming Brennus's vassal? Will aelf's current +13 with Brennus make it less likely?

Sell Code of Laws to Brennus for 170 gold and use it to speed your own research. Remember that there are other opponents solmewhere, and even though this would help Brennus, it will help you against those unmet AIs.

Jet said:

What can be done (or has already been done) to keep Saladin from becoming Brennus's vassal? Will aelf's current +13 with Brennus make it less likely?

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You Need Feudalism In order for the AI to become a Vassal or at less The AI needs Feudalism. Whether of not Aelf can research optics and reach the other Continent Before Saladin becomes a Vassal is unknown. Plus Saladin hates everyone of his rivals on the same continent, I think the only way for him to become a vassal is if the celts declare war again or demand him to become a vassal.

As for the usage of the Great Engineer. The short term wonders I can see for it's use is... , The Colossus(requires MC) , The Hanging Gardens, The Hagia Sophia(requires Engineering) and Notre Dame(requires Music)

If it's a Short term wonder you want, I'd choose the Colossus becuase you want most of your cities to be on the coast because of the trade route strategy. Altthough it's use won't be available for long because your beelining to Astronomy and by then it'll become obsolete.

kniteowl said:

As for the usage of the Great Engineer. The short term wonders I can see for it's use is... , The Colossus(requires MC) , The Hanging Gardens, The Hagia Sophia(requires Engineering) and Notre Dame(requires Music)

If it's a Short term wonder you want, I'd choose the Colossus becuase you want most of your cities to be on the coast because of the trade route strategy. Altthough it's use won't be available for long because your beelining to Astronomy and by then it'll become obsolete.

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colossus is very cheap and we're industrious = total waste
lightbulb a good tech or settle the guy!

It's not true that the first visitor is always a powerful civ. It's certainly not backward, but it could be small and relatively weak.

I'm not too concerned about the risk of Brennus developing good relations with AIs on the other continent. They will certainly dislike him for having a different state religion. We, on the other hand, will probably beeline for Liberalism and can hence switch to Free Religion for better relaions (which would also remove the 'don't want to fight brothers of the faith' unhappiness from our cities when we declare war on Brennus).

I think Colossus and Notre Dame have been built on the other continent. Hanging Gardens probably soon and Hagia Sophia is not very useful. Anyway, the GE would be useful for Machinery. I propose this: research CS for the commerce boost from Bureaucracy, research MC, lightbulb Machinery with the GE, trade for Compass if possible, research Optics, research Paper, lightbulb Education with a GS (if possible) and research the rest, get Liberalism and grab Astronomy as the free tech. However, we may just lose both the circumnavigation race and the Liberalism race. To help prevent this, I agree with trading CoL for Brennus' gold.

Regarding the NE, is a market more important in Washington right now or the NE? Remember the NE gives us a chance of popping a GA and I don't think we want that to happen. The earlier we build it, the higher that chance.

Saladin becoming a vassal to Brennus is a possible and unpleasant prospect. I doubt Brennus will go to war with us by accepting him as a vassal (they are at peace now), but with the unpatched Warlords, you can never tell. We can prevent that by asking Brennus to declare war also, but that may require a bribe.

why do you want to go for bureaucracy first? it's not required for optics!
I'd go metal casting, lightbulb machinery, compass, optics, whip caravels, research bureaucracy (or trade for it with those AI you will find).

cabert said:

why do you want to go for bureaucracy first? it's not required for optics!

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It helps to shorten our research through its commerce boost, as I've said in my update. Anyway, trading for CS is very difficult and all the AIs on the other continent would probably be pursuing the exact same path you suggested so we would have nothing to trade with.