challenge: win Civ2 before 1500 AD

The Civ II War Academy now contains an article on How to Win Civ2 Before 1750 AD. The Grand Challenge is to win Civ2 before 1500 AD.
My earliest win so far is in 1600 AD, and yet 1500 AD looks _very_ difficult.
Help! Let us work together on improving the strategy to make even earlier wins possible. Please post your ideas and experiences.

Jens Palsberg

GOTM players have been winning games before 1500 both by conquest and space ship. Conquest players have been winning them much earlier, in early ADs or sometimes even late BCs.

Ali Ardavan said:

GOTM players have been winning games before 1500 both by conquest and space ship. Conquest players have been winning them much earlier, in early ADs or sometimes even late BCs.

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Great to hear that! Did those players use the same set up as that of the article in the Civ2 War Academy namely "We assume that Civ2 is played at the Deity level on a large random map with seven civilizations, standard rules, and Barbarians as Raging Hordes" ? Assuming they did, where can I find posts or information about the strategy that they used?

Jens Palsberg

Look at the great Library on the Apolyton site. There are a few documents which explain early conquest and early landing.

Hi palsberg,

Help! Let us work together on improving the strategy to make even earlier wins possible.

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Some Links:
1. Sticky: Civ II Link Index Page
2. The Power Democracy Consolidated

Also, look at GOTM 68; many have posted some good info there. I will also post a great deal about some things in those threads soon, particularly regarding early wins and democracy. Much of it will have to do with winning early. And crushing the enemy. And trade. That (GOTM 68) map and that game are the most powerful for trade and growth I have ever played. "Unparalleled" you might say; however, it is not a random map (its a scenario, with most research done!), but it is very instructive for fast play, and staggering scoring possibilities.

palsberg: AFAIK the earliest conquest ever was in approx 2000BC. The idea was to pop huts, and get NON-units, which popped more huts, etc. With this strategy, you don't really even have to build a city. Warlord or Deity ? AFAIK it doesn't matter. But this odd plan is not very reliable.

With "normal" play at Deity level on normal/large maps, I think any BC conquest would be very impressive - not quite sure I can even remember one. I have come close several times.

I don't play early landing games much, but I guess they usually take a few hundred years longer than a conquest games. There are records at the Apolyton GL and in the CFC GOTM archives.

With all due respect to the early players who contributed to the War Academy, IMHO it is out-of-date, and contains much advice/opinions that few good players believe in today.

With "normal" play at Deity level on normal/large maps, I think any BC conquest would be very impressive - not quite sure I can even remember one. I have come close several times.

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I believe Cactus Pete and maybe Smash have done it in GOTMs before (and maybe others), like about GOTM 5-8 or somewhere in there.

palsberg said:

Great to hear that! Did those players use the same set up as that of the article in the Civ2 War Academy namely "We assume that Civ2 is played at the Deity level on a large random map with seven civilizations, standard rules, and Barbarians as Raging Hordes" ? Assuming they did, where can I find posts or information about the strategy that they used?

Jens Palsberg

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Take a look at:

1. GOTM63, where it was required to win by space ship. Top 3 players all finished before 1500. It was King not deity, 7 civs, restless tribes (not raging hordes)

2. GOTM62 which was Emperor/7 civs/raging hordes. Top 2 players won by conquest way before 1500.

3. GOTM46 which was Deity/5 civs/restless tribes. Players 2-4 finished by conquest way before 1500.

challenge: win Civ2 before 1500 AD

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this cannot be true. but wait wait wait, we be in cfc... u r da masta och I am da paduan learner.

but how can it be with no colossus to do a good game, so good. maybe warlord. no! but wait it say diety. have da masters won in diety before 1500? can it be true? most sure not space craft can fly thru galaxy to star and plant happy flag before 1500! but mircles can be true too?

I say Peaster can conquer Deity/large random map/7 civs/Raging Hordes before 1000 all the time and before 500 most of the time.

Wining by space ship before 1500 is much tougher. I have done it a few times but not at Deity.

In a couple of the Early Landing Comparison Games over at Poly a number of players achieved pre-AD1000 wins. I think there was even a few runs at AD500 by Solo, SlowThinker and Xenon. Takes some searching to rediscover the threads.

ElephantU said:

In a couple of the Early Landing Comparison Games over at Poly a number of players achieved pre-AD1000 wins.

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Were those played at Deity?

Ali - I am pretty sure they were at Deity. The Poly players almost never played anything else. I think the best EL dates are posted in the GL, with some of them around 500AD or better. IIRC Samson even finished an OCC in 1AD, but with a big asterisk - his friends played the other civs!

I downloaded the game Solo and Xenon played with game log. They called it comparison game #7. They played at Deity and didn't pop huts. The finish is around 350 AD.

I believe the earliest landing ever recorded was AD6, because you cannot launch a spaceship before AD1 no matter what you try, and the fastest ship is 5.7 years. Samson set up a hot-seat game where the other civs were controlled by players that allied with his civ and helped him prepare to launch. Amusing, but really a cheat.

The hut restriction was an attempt to eliminate random effects, but there was some discussion that huts can sometimes hinder more than help, particularly an unlucky tech discovery when the critical path is very tight.

Yes, the Early Landing Comparisons were all Deity difficulty. Much of the results and lessons learned were written up by Solo in his Early Landing Guide. SlowThinker had an interesting departure from the standard fare that is worth comparing.

I believe the earliest landing ever recorded was AD6, because you cannot launch a spaceship before AD1 no matter what you try,

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Technically, you can launch a SS... if you had one. The problem is that the game seems to "hard wire" (barring any relatively recent new research) the spaceship parts to only appear as build options in 1 AD or later. That means in 1 AD, your cities could build the parts for a SS (if you had at least the number of cities to produce them simultaneously) and therfore launch on the next turn (AD 0020). At that moment, the game years will switch to counting by 1's (instead of 20's), and 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26 [win].

The hut restriction was an attempt to eliminate random effects

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What hut restriction? Personally, I'm a fan of restricting (eliminating) huts, because too much luck can really alter some games. I noticed we had no huts in this GOTM, and assume they are gone from GOTMs now?

by Solo in his Early Landing Guide

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Where is that located? If Slow Thinker (a good dude) is involved, I know where (at the other big Website... is it OK to say that name these days, hehe). Hope ST is still around here too, but I don't see any recent posts from him.

EDIT: I found it. Wow. An impressive work, going on since 2003!! A very comprehensive document did Solo make, and well-written, too. Its great to see some real work still being done in the Civ 2 world, and new "discoveries" being made. If the Civ 2 Source Code is ever released, we the Civ 2 Community as a larger whole should get together and make an agreement about what/how certain things should be fixed.

What hut restriction? Personally, I'm a fan of restricting (eliminating) huts, because too much luck can really alter some games. I noticed we had no huts in this GOTM, and assume they are gone from GOTMs now?

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Bad luck, they are back in GOTM 69.

Bad luck, they are back in GOTM 69.

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Now I see I had misunderstood the earlier context to be about GOTMs. It was in regards to Solo's work; I see his conditions for the comparison games require not popping huts, due to the uncertainty/unpredictability for reference. His line of thinking & mine are pretty much the same; but in regards to GOTMs, it is nice to just have them wiped once in a while.

It occurred to me that maybe it might be fun to take Captain Jean Luk Picarcard's approach once... I remember an episode where he was trying to keep the Enterprise out of some force, which was sucking it in. He finally decided that it should not be resisted, but instead of reverse thrust, apply full power forward. It was a wild ride. Maybe sometime we could have a GOTM with a special rule: a person can reload and reload and reload all they desire (time permitting) for huts. Get whatever you want from them, if you got the time. A "best case outcome" for whatever style you want... science, gold, NON settler, weeds, city, barbarians. You'd be surprised how often I personally hope for the latter (but not in very early game though). Hmmmm.

Most of the games I play I don't pop huts till I discovered trade. This because I play EL and with the discovery of a "wrong" science it cost me extra turns.

A "best case outcome" for whatever style you want... science, gold, NON settler, weeds, city, barbarians.

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Sounds interesting. Especially when there are enough huts to pop. Which choice will be the best....NON settler, science....etc.

Allowing liesurely reloads to get a hut outcome to match you personal strategy, in effect, becomes a new strategy while eliminating the "luck" factor (good or bad, that is). I'm guessing that such an alternative would greatly accelerate the game because of quick and fearless popping, and probably many would opt for advances early on. The AI would be hapless (as usual). The idea should of course be tested (e.g., how much land/huts to make easily available to human, etc., and see what does well). Because of the great advantage reloads gives, the game should be at a high level I would think. Even Diety... newer players would likely be able to survive pretty well I would think, even if they don't normally play at Emperor or Deity. Anyway, just an idea. I guess this topic got off the thread, so I'll put it in the GOTM section. But on topic, hut reloads would definitely enable a pre-1500 landing possibilty for many players, hehe.