Proof god doesn't exist

nc-1701

nc-1701

bombombedum
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Ok lets assume that christians are 100% right about creation for a second.
If god created man then god came from somewhere, thus we can infer that he was either.
a) created
b) he evolved
b would make the original statement ludicrous so we must assume that god was created. This however creates several paradoxes first the Christians believe in only a single god but if he was created by another then there are clearly more than one. It also means that each earlier god was ore powerfull than his successor god barring the belief that god has absolute power.

Finaly we must then ask who created gods creator? The only availabe answer is an even greater god if we folow that out we get several paradoxes.
*#(gods)>Infinity
*If there are infinity gods then there must also be infinity matter and energy in the universe which there isn't.
*This destroys the second law of thermodynamics.
*It causes a blatant paradox with passages from the bible.

I want to know how those of you who still believe can refute this perhaps I made a mistake somewhere but I doubt it.

Please no flaming, trolling or spamming this thread. Limit the disscussion to the 'proof' I have just written and possible reftations of it or sister proofs that rely on the same concept.

Thank you.
 
You have not proven the non-existence of God, only the inadequacy of the Argument from Design.

It is plausible that God was pre-existent, but that humanity was created by Him (Her/It/Them). And even if He/She./It/They weren't a being can be created and still be God. But your biggest flaw was your first line:

Ok lets assume that christians are 100% right about creation for a second.
Click to expand...

I have seen others try to disprove God by first of all assuming that only "the" (rather, "a") Christian concept of God is correct. But lots of other interpretations are possible. I believe, for instance, that a great deal in the universe (including the basis of matter, and of what I would call our souls) is self-existent, and that it was organized by God. But the fact that He organized rather than created out of nothing does not cease to make Him God.
 
God's (supposed) creation of this universe is no different than some bloke turning on a computer and starting a game of Civ.
 
Maybe god is simply powerful enough to have created him/herself? And applying the laws thermodyanmics to the supreme being seems a little silly if he'she created them, no?

How's this for an explanation: everything in the universe exists only as a half of a duality; for there to be someting there must be a nothing. If before there was anything there was only nothing, then that nothing would be also everything. If the absence of anything creates something that is everything, then that single everything would be infinitely powerful. Pwerful enough, say, to create something else.... :lol:
 
It's not proven that there isn't infinite matter in the Universe. We have a finite amount of matter in our light bubble, but that's it.
 
I don't gang up too much with the religious brigade, but I think you're arguments could be applied just aswell to the big bang theory or the good old chicken or the egg thing.
 
MamboJoel said:
I don't gang up too much with the religious brigade, but I think you're arguments could be applied just aswell to the big bang theory or the good old chicken or the egg thing.
Click to expand...
Indeed. The solution is the rejection of the simplistic notions of causation and taking a more abstract view of time.
 
Nonetheless, the OP does raise a few compelling points. Like Perf says, it proves that our human notions of causality, while well suited for our immediate environment, do not apply to the universe as a whole.
 
Che Guava said:
Maybe god is simply powerful enough to have created him/herself? And applying the laws thermodyanmics to the supreme being seems a little silly if he'she created them, no?

How's this for an explanation: everything in the universe exists only as a half of a duality; for there to be someting there must be a nothing. If before there was anything there was only nothing, then that nothing would be also everything. If the absence of anything creates something that is everything, then that single everything would be infinitely powerful. Pwerful enough, say, to create something else.... :lol:
Click to expand...

While I don't doubt there is a way to wriggle out it always seems to create more hard to answer questions than it solves.

Saying we can't apply universal laws to god is IMHO ridiculous these laws are universal and saying oh they don't apply here makes it seem like you don't actualy care to think and would rather spout rhetoric.

Finally I see no reason why we can't hold god to basic rules of logic saying 'his ways are mysterious' to me at least seems to be more like an attempt to make you shut up and stop asking difficult questions.
 
God can be held to basic rules of logic; to me saying "His ways are mysterious" is really saying "we lack full knowledge of the facts or ability to comprehend all the factors involved, so what looks odd to us is in reality actually the logical thing".
 
Well, of course God would conform to certain rules. I don't think that It need to conform to the current 'rules' of physics that we have interpreted.
 
nc-1701 said:
Saying we can't apply universal laws to god is IMHO ridiculous these laws are universal and saying oh they don't apply here makes it seem like you don't actualy care to think and would rather spout rhetoric.
Click to expand...
Are you implying that causation is an universal law?
 
nc-1701 said:
Yes I do.
Click to expand...
It's not. Quantum Physics has many instances where causality does not come into play and indeed where causality becomes a problematic assumption. A good example would be nuclear decay. There is no event that causes a nucleus of an atom to decay. It will just decay on its on with a set prbability over a period of time.
 
Eran of Arcadia said:
Nonetheless, the OP does raise a few compelling points. Like Perf says, it proves that our human notions of causality, while well suited for our immediate environment, do not apply to the universe as a whole.
Click to expand...

But our universe actually had a beginning, at least to 50 parts per million last I heard... (see CMB and implications of the data). That is now a known much like the warpage of space became known after measurements of the motion of Mercury early in the 20th century. Causality as a concept actually works exceedingly well as an explanation of the existence of the universe as a whole, regardless of whether God exists or not. If we know that it most certainly had a measurable beginning, there must have been a cause for that beginning.

edit - Well, it could be just a massive spontaneous decay from a virtually non-volumetric state of existence of the universe. No cause to the universe... hm, must think about that. The pre-universe was a big monte carlo generator...

edit2 - @MamboJoel Gaah! *SR goes blind* You win! This thread is stupid! Help! Now I know God CAN'T exist! Hitler was right! Anything to stop the pain!!!! Arrrgghhh..... Die, little "girl", die! *where's that hatchet?* *SR turns off img downloads*... OK, I'm better now.
 
Stolen Rutters said:
If we know that it most certainly had a measurable beginning, there must have been a cause for that beginning.
Click to expand...
The latter statement does not follow from the former.

Indeed if the beginning had a cause, then it would not be the beginning.
 
nc-1701 said:
Saying we can't apply universal laws to god is IMHO ridiculous these laws are universal and saying oh they don't apply here makes it seem like you don't actualy care to think and would rather spout rhetoric.
Click to expand...

Our laws are universal...to the little piece of the galaxy we inhabit, in the time that we have, using the tools we have to explain it. God is supposed to be the ultimate power, the alpha and omega, I would say that the creator being beyond the confines of what we deem 'universal' seems more likely than not, no?

A tiny worm living in an apple might be able to make the claim that all matter in his universe derives from a juicy pulp of unknown origin; what possible hypotheses could he make about the apple tree? The orchard? The apple picker? Saying that we can know for sure that the laws of thermodynamics (or anything really) applies to the being that was able to create us from nothing is a huge assumption.

So to turn it around, have you thought about the probability that god's methods are beyond our present understanding of reality and rules that supposedly guide our universe?


Finally I see no reason why we can't hold god to basic rules of logic saying 'his ways are mysterious' to me at least seems to be more like an attempt to make you shut up and stop asking difficult questions.
Click to expand...

It's not so much as a 'shut up and keep digging' response as an answer to a question that has no real answer. In all the religious texts I've ever seen or read about, I've never seen a definite answer as to why god would bother to create us at all. We have nothing to compare our reality to, so how could we possibly know god's motivations to do anything he/she does. A big part of faith is trusting that whatever god does, he/she does so for the best no matter how difficult it is to understand. Thus, she moves in mysterious ways...
 
Che Guava said:
Our laws are universal...to the little piece of the galaxy we inhabit, in the time that we have, using the tools we have to explain it. God is supposed to be the ultimate power, the alpha and omega, I would say that the creator being beyond the confines of what we deem 'universal' seems more likely than not, no?

A tiny worm living in an apple might be able to make the claim that all matter in his universe derives from a juicy pulp of unknown origin; what possible hypotheses could he make about the apple tree? The orchard? The apple picker? Saying that we can know for sure that the laws of thermodynamics (or anything really) applies to the being that was able to create us from nothing is a huge assumption.

So to turn it around, have you thought about the probability that god's methods are beyond our present understanding of reality and rules that supposedly guide our universe?




It's not so much as a 'shut up and keep digging' response as an answer to a question that has no real answer. In all the religious texts I've ever seen or read about, I've never seen a definite answer as to why god would bother to create us at all. We have nothing to compare our reality to, so how could we possibly know god's motivations to do anything he/she does. A big part of faith is trusting that whatever god does, he/she does so for the best no matter how difficult it is to understand. Thus, she moves in mysterious ways...
Click to expand...

My point is saying that he doesn't nessasarily folow the laws of phisycs or logic is simply stonewalling sure your'e right but at some point isn't easier to simply say perhaps the universe we observe is the way the universe actually exists?
 
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