I don't approve of the number of powerful, no-name rulers in this game.

Monkeyfinger · Nov 16, 2006, 07:42 PM

I mean. Come on. Hannibal? Huayna Capac? Ragnar? Asoka? Mansa Musa? Who the HELL has ever heard of these guys? And Ragnar and Asoka are the only ones of this bunch whose civs have any recognition. -_-

They had the right idea with Mehmed II and Qin Shi Huang. Make the really unrecognizable filler leaders also be totally useless from a gameplay perspective. (Though, Qin was actually good in vanilla Civ4. *sigh*)

Mutineer · Nov 16, 2006, 07:52 PM

First chinise emperor is unrecognisable ruler?
Man, you just need to have a better education, or just basic interest in history.

Elandal · Nov 16, 2006, 09:24 PM

Mali was a powerful trade empire in its time, and Mansa Musa the best known king. He made his pilgrimage to Mecca, and Timbuktu flourished as a center of trade through which caravans passed. There were several universities in Timbuktu, and people had a fascination for books, collecting large private collections (eg. one person had written that his collection of 1600 books and manuscripts was one of the smallest in Timbuktu). The books are sought now for conservation, but the sheer number of books makes this effort almost impossible.

Ragnar is semi-legendary, with information about him mostly in form of sagas that conflict with eachother. In those sagas he's presented as a king who lead many raids to France and England, sailing Seine with over a hundred ships and thousands of warriors, taking even Paris hostage. He's presented as a military leader, but on the other hand apparently his relations with Russia were good and based on trade.
The viking raids of the period are known from other sources, although the French didn't bother to note the name of the king who captured Paris.. These raids I believe lead to formation of Normandy in France when many of the warriors ended up settling there.

Hannibal I didn't even think needed explanation.. Ever heard of elephants and Alps?

Huayna Capac was the leader of the Incan empire in the early 16th century. He expanded the empire greatly, and with his passing the Incas were drawn into civil war which lead to the downfall of the empire as the Spanish conquistadors arrived to the scene during the time.

Asoka was a warrior king who conquested vast lands, ruling over what is now India, Pakistan, and Afganistan, together. I'm not sure of the extent of his empire, could've been more than that even. When he saw first hand the burnt villages and corpses, he grew appalled of the effects of his wars on the people (the famous quote being "What have I done?"), couldn't sleep nor continue the warring ways. He found Buddhism and lead the empire to new heights in philosophy.

Any other leaders you need help with?

@Mutineer: From the words I believe he meant that Qin and Mehmed were worthy of being included in CIV, being well known leaders of well known civilizations. Personally I'm not at all sure if Mehmed is even in the same category as eg. Mansa Musa, but still I believe he's worthy of being included

OTOH Tokugawa (Ieyasu I'm assuming) I'm not that sure about. I guess he was chosen as the Japanese leader because the period in which Tokugawa Shogunate was founded was a warring one and coincided with the European contact thereby fitting to the western understanding of Japan (isolationist, militaristic, samurai). Probably best known samurai-era leader of Japan in the west (I'm assuming here that contemporary leaders are better known in general). Yes, one of the names not to be forgotten, but there would be others as well.
I guess I could rant about some other leader choices as well, but let that be for another thread

In general my opinion is that no post-WWI leader should have been included, and that there have been numerous great empires that could've been included but didn't make it in. Vikings got the caricature treatment, and nobody seems to like the Celts - those two would be the ones I know best of the civs available in the game.

Revolutionary · Nov 16, 2006, 09:38 PM

Hannibal? unrecognizable? are you serious?

it is not Firaxis fault if your knowledge of history is lacking...

NKVD · Nov 16, 2006, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolutionary

Hannibal? unrecognizable? are you serious?

it is not Firaxis fault if your knowledge of history is lacking...

hahaha I wanted to say the same thing...

Maybe that recognizable for him is limited to Hitler, Bush or Napoleon...

aelf · Nov 16, 2006, 11:13 PM

I had a friend who once told her French teacher that Napoleon was the guy who found America

But complaining about not knowing some of the leaders in Civ is another thing altogether. Why don't you read up more instead making your ignorance a basis for your grievance?

taillesskangaru · Nov 16, 2006, 11:35 PM

Re: Monkeyfinger: Go and do a Google search. Go to the library and pick up some books on these leaders. Then if you want to come back and argue that these leaders are not deserving then bring along some historical evidence.

Warlord Sam · Nov 17, 2006, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolutionary

Hannibal? unrecognizable? are you serious?

it is not Firaxis fault if your knowledge of history is lacking...

I couldn't say it better myself

Thedrin · Nov 17, 2006, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Who the HELL has ever heard of these guys?

Fame is the last criteria that I would use for judging whether a leader should be in the game.

Willowmound · Nov 17, 2006, 01:29 AM

Imagine flaunting one's ignorance by opening a thread about it! Man, I'd feel embarrassed for the guy, if I weren't so busy laughing uncontrollably.

G Julius Caesar · Nov 17, 2006, 04:03 AM

Hang on MonkeyFinger....you're not George W Bush or Tony Blair are you?

cymru_man · Nov 17, 2006, 04:53 AM

Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt..

Seriously man, if you haven't heard of some of these guys, you need some education. Or at least don't show off your ignorance

I'll admit I hadn't heard of a couple of the Civ4 leaders (Huayna, for eg), but do some reading and you'll see they're all right. Besides, what world famous Incan leader would you suggest to lead them instead?

Turner · Nov 17, 2006, 05:02 AM

Moderator Action: Thread closed. No need to flame him.

Revolutoinary, Warlord Sam, Willowmound, G Julius Caeser - warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/faq.php?faq=updated_rules_2011

Nov 16, 2006, 07:42 PM	#1
Monkeyfinger Feels so good... Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Pacifica, California Posts: 1,998	I don't approve of the number of powerful, no-name rulers in this game. I mean. Come on. Hannibal? Huayna Capac? Ragnar? Asoka? Mansa Musa? Who the HELL has ever heard of these guys? And Ragnar and Asoka are the only ones of this bunch whose civs have any recognition. -_- They had the right idea with Mehmed II and Qin Shi Huang. Make the really unrecognizable filler leaders also be totally useless from a gameplay perspective. (Though, Qin was actually good in vanilla Civ4. sigh)

Nov 16, 2006, 11:13 PM	#6
aelf Noctis Lucis Caelum Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Kate Spade oligarchy Posts: 13,400	I had a friend who once told her French teacher that Napoleon was the guy who found America But complaining about not knowing some of the leaders in Civ is another thing altogether. Why don't you read up more instead making your ignorance a basis for your grievance? __________________ JESUS wants you. Civ 4 Walkthroughs: EMC I: Diplomacy, EMC II (Warlords): Religion, EMC III (Warlords): Trade routes, EMC IV (Warlords): Semi-peaceful, IC I (Warlords): Montezuma, IC II (Warlords): Frederick, IC III (Warlords): Churchill, IC IV (Warlords): Mehmed Civ 4 Strategy Article: A Comprehensive UU Guide

Nov 16, 2006, 11:35 PM	#7
taillesskangaru Just a passenger Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 16,172	Re: Monkeyfinger: Go and do a Google search. Go to the library and pick up some books on these leaders. Then if you want to come back and argue that these leaders are not deserving then bring along some historical evidence. __________________ Gonna burn your name right across the sky, so I'll never forget what the feeling's like. IALS - DRAW Your Own Story - Civ3Earth - Mongols - Cure Cancer - deviantART - Iron and Blood 4 - Flankcaster Ponies - #nes "I love making up quotes." - Alexander The Great "I don't think Hitler would be very concerned with following the Constitution" - Zack

Nov 17, 2006, 01:29 AM	#10
Willowmound Wordbug Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Afloat Posts: 2,219	Imagine flaunting one's ignorance by opening a thread about it! Man, I'd feel embarrassed for the guy, if I weren't so busy laughing uncontrollably. __________________ Still playing Civ IV? Try ActualQuotes -- leaders speak their own actual words

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Nov 16, 2006, 07:52 PM	#2
Mutineer Deity Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,291	First chinise emperor is unrecognisable ruler? Man, you just need to have a better education, or just basic interest in history.

Nov 16, 2006, 09:24 PM	#3
Elandal King Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Finland Posts: 870	Mali was a powerful trade empire in its time, and Mansa Musa the best known king. He made his pilgrimage to Mecca, and Timbuktu flourished as a center of trade through which caravans passed. There were several universities in Timbuktu, and people had a fascination for books, collecting large private collections (eg. one person had written that his collection of 1600 books and manuscripts was one of the smallest in Timbuktu). The books are sought now for conservation, but the sheer number of books makes this effort almost impossible. Ragnar is semi-legendary, with information about him mostly in form of sagas that conflict with eachother. In those sagas he's presented as a king who lead many raids to France and England, sailing Seine with over a hundred ships and thousands of warriors, taking even Paris hostage. He's presented as a military leader, but on the other hand apparently his relations with Russia were good and based on trade. The viking raids of the period are known from other sources, although the French didn't bother to note the name of the king who captured Paris.. These raids I believe lead to formation of Normandy in France when many of the warriors ended up settling there. Hannibal I didn't even think needed explanation.. Ever heard of elephants and Alps? Huayna Capac was the leader of the Incan empire in the early 16th century. He expanded the empire greatly, and with his passing the Incas were drawn into civil war which lead to the downfall of the empire as the Spanish conquistadors arrived to the scene during the time. Asoka was a warrior king who conquested vast lands, ruling over what is now India, Pakistan, and Afganistan, together. I'm not sure of the extent of his empire, could've been more than that even. When he saw first hand the burnt villages and corpses, he grew appalled of the effects of his wars on the people (the famous quote being "What have I done?"), couldn't sleep nor continue the warring ways. He found Buddhism and lead the empire to new heights in philosophy. Any other leaders you need help with? @Mutineer: From the words I believe he meant that Qin and Mehmed were worthy of being included in CIV, being well known leaders of well known civilizations. Personally I'm not at all sure if Mehmed is even in the same category as eg. Mansa Musa, but still I believe he's worthy of being included OTOH Tokugawa (Ieyasu I'm assuming) I'm not that sure about. I guess he was chosen as the Japanese leader because the period in which Tokugawa Shogunate was founded was a warring one and coincided with the European contact thereby fitting to the western understanding of Japan (isolationist, militaristic, samurai). Probably best known samurai-era leader of Japan in the west (I'm assuming here that contemporary leaders are better known in general). Yes, one of the names not to be forgotten, but there would be others as well. I guess I could rant about some other leader choices as well, but let that be for another thread In general my opinion is that no post-WWI leader should have been included, and that there have been numerous great empires that could've been included but didn't make it in. Vikings got the caricature treatment, and nobody seems to like the Celts - those two would be the ones I know best of the civs available in the game.

Nov 16, 2006, 09:38 PM	#4
Revolutionary Anarchy! Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Fighting The Good Fight Posts: 811	Hannibal? unrecognizable? are you serious? it is not Firaxis fault if your knowledge of history is lacking...

Nov 17, 2006, 04:03 AM	#11
G Julius Caesar Warlord Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: North East, England Posts: 123	Hang on MonkeyFinger....you're not George W Bush or Tony Blair are you?

Nov 17, 2006, 04:53 AM	#12
cymru_man Prince Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: UK Posts: 400	Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.. Seriously man, if you haven't heard of some of these guys, you need some education. Or at least don't show off your ignorance I'll admit I hadn't heard of a couple of the Civ4 leaders (Huayna, for eg), but do some reading and you'll see they're all right. Besides, what world famous Incan leader would you suggest to lead them instead?

Nov 17, 2006, 05:02 AM	#13
Turner Deity Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Randomistan Posts: 25,973	Moderator Action: Thread closed. No need to flame him. Revolutoinary, Warlord Sam, Willowmound, G Julius Caeser - warned. Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/faq.php?faq=updated_rules_2011

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