SGOTM 03 - Fistful of Dynamite

[AlanH]

Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 3 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
As Peter The Great, Leader of All the Russias, you are charged with achieving a Diplomatic or Space Victory.

This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, crowded map, at Epic speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Diplomatic or Space victory.

Version
Your team will play this map in Warlords version 2.08, using the standard HoF Mod for Windows version 2.08. This is currently HOF_Mod-2.08.001, but we shall use the latest version of the mod as at the start date for the game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page at midnight, server local time, at the start of December 1st.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.



Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Peter of Russia
Rivals - all the other 17 civs in version 1.61
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Archipelago, low sea level, tropical
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Aggressive
Barbarians - Standard
Permanent Alliances Enabled
No City Razing

Notes

1. Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
   
2. BOTH Civilization IV v1.61 and Warlords v.2.08 are supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with your chosen version throughout the game.
   
3. Teams will compete for four awards for each version of the game - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.
   
4. All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve Diplomatic or Space victories in the least turns.
   
5. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Remember, Rule Number 11: Have Fun.

[blid]

Checkin' in

Is anybody else thinking backdoor diplo ? It seems to me like diplo and space are not fair competition.

With 17 civs and no mysticism, we can forget about early religion. Classic warrior/fishing start ? We can turn to wheel/pottery next and go heavy on cottages

[Kikinit]

blid, my thoughts were for diplo as well as it's just so far before space. Means we'll have to keep a reasonable track of our dealings with the AI between players. That can be hard in SG's as you would well be aware.

It will be interesting though to see how we can get the AI's to vote for us on aggressive AI.

[sooooo]

Hello, checking in

I was thinking diplo too. Since we're philosophical, this thread should help us in lightbulbing our way through the tree to mass media.

The diplomacy in this game will be tough - but also interesting.

[blid]

I think Gyathaar put space in the scenario because diplo ain't a reliable victory condition. With aggressive AI on, it is even harder because they start with some hidden negative modifier making them annoyed with you the very time you meet them

Anyway, the fastest way would probably be to vote ourselves out along with some allies votes. With 17 civs on archipelago map, I don't think any AI would get the land advantage necessary to make him a profitable permanent ally. PAs won't change much in the game methinks

IMO, building the great lighthouse should be put high on our priorities. Imagine the potential trade routes we have with all those AIs. Of course, we should be wary of whom we befriend like Kikinit pointed out but still 8 or 9 of them should be enough.

@sooooo : I'm eager to experiment those extreme lightbulbing paths. Should be fun to try once in a while. Hope tech preferences haven't changed with warlords. DaveMcW article was written for vanilla.

[Kikinit]

I think we need to follow an extreme path whilst we massage the diplo scene to the best of our abilities.

[pindicator]

I agree that diplo will be the quickest victory type. Backdoor diplo may even be faster. The only shame to that is we will not be able to use Peter's Great Library UB, which I've always had a soft spot for (but I'll have to settle for use of in a private game).

I still don't have enough to personal experience with 2.08 and the new AI to guage how different the tech rate is. But my initial idea is to secure our starting island, maybe grab a nearby one if it presents itself, and then tech to a superior military position. Ideal timing would be to expand for needed pop right as we start burning great people on the last couple techs (Electricity [Sci, Eng], Radio[Sci, Art], Mass Media[Sci, Art]). Having war allies would be the best idea here. Pick a couple good war-mongering civs and ally them in every battle, so we should get their votes as well as whatever they conquer.

Lurking in the different team threads last time taught me that the teams in the upper echelon are those that stay extremely focused, as well as having a good plan. This team did well in communicating steps along the way before; lets keep that up.

Unfortunately, I am not going to have much time to play around with this in the near future. My cousin (more like little sister, with how close we are) is visiting from the east coast and gets my attention until she flies out on Tuesday. I may get a few moments between now and then, but don't count on anything from me until then.

[sooooo]

Following the research of worker techs, alphabet, literature and construction, a straight, sensible beeline to Mass Media would be:

Currency -> Code of Laws -> MC -> CS -> Machinery -> Calendar -> Compass -> Optics -> Astronomy -> Paper -> Printing Press -> Scientific Method -> Physics -> Electricity -> Radio -> Mass Media.

Obviously some of those techs like MC or Calendar can be traded for. That route doesn't include philosophy, which could well be helpful for the pacifism civic. This involves a plan of warring mainly with cats, swords and macemen. Hopefully capturing the pyramids .

I figure the education -> liberalism route to be a waste of beakers because cities which would build universities could just build obsevatories instead. Yes I know we get half price unis, but I still think we save a load of beakers by ignoring it and we can always build them later once we trade for it.

Sci meth and physics are lightbulbable by scientists. Astronomy is not, because it would get paper or education first (assuming we have CoL) and printing press is possible only if we trade for education. Optics and paper are only available if we trade for philosophy (highly probable), otherwise philosophy will be the tech he/she will prefer. The great library for its scientist points is looking very attractive.

Merchants aren't that useful, but any artists we get from the national epic can be saved because they can get mass media and radio.

[Ralph_Jackson]

I am far from an expert at Backdoor Diplomacy but that definitely seems to be the "way" to target the fastest win.

It strikes me the game will have certain distinct phases.

1. Opening (have to think in terms of chess)
Key factors being
a) Secure land, it will be gobbled up quick so expansion is the key?
=> Prioritise food / hammers taking a hit in science if necessary
or
=> Prioritise key military techs for an early axemen / swordsmen rush

Probably avoid mixing and matching these two but pick one and focus?

b) unlock and build "key" wonders
I would say these are
1. Great Lighthouse
2. Great Library

Lots of nice to have wonders but in a world with lots of industruioius civs they are diversions and unachievable?
1. Pyramids. Nice to have but we will be beaten to it
2. Oracle requires priroitising religious techs which we probably wont
3. Parthenon??

2. Middle game
Here we are identifying and nurturing friends and taking out a few civs to be come dominant in population but not land to assist back door diplomacy. A classic "normal" game mid phase

3. End game.

This is the rush to UN whilst manipulating scores so we have the right unloved opponent in the vote off.

Top of mind thoughts requiring detection. I definitely think we need to keep on really debating and agreeing our options as we didn't get this quite right in the middle game last time.

Ralph

Please note I am out of the loop 3rd to 8th December inclusive as I am in the US for the week.

[sooooo]

Wonders are going to be really hard with 17 other civs in the game. I think the great lighthouse is pretty risky unless we have stone, even if we beeline to it. The great library was easy to get on vanilla because the AIs ignored alphabet for so long. But with the new warlords patch I read they get it earlier. Will have to investigate that one.

[blid]

Nice discussion going on
I want to point out a few things :
- The great lighthouse is not accelerated by stone nor marble. The real threat would be industrious civs. But if we focus, it is very doable. The problem is that our capital don't have any hills for production. Only forests to chop. We can either build it in a second city with nice production or just rip our capital bare of forests but I prefer the first option. We just need to research sailing early, build a lighthouse while researching masonry then start buliding the pharos.

- Early sailing is not a bad idea on archipelago maps. I've seen archipelago maps where you can circumnavigate by galley or even workboat if it doesn't meet barbarian galley. I doubt Gyathaar would leave such an option though

- Late artists generate poor beakers for research. Something like 10%-15% of the overall cost of techs like radio and mass media. At this point of the game, golden ages are generally better. But there is an exception for engineers. I think you can rush the UN with a couple of them. In the early game, we should try to get the most of them though

[pindicator]

Great Lighthouse will be HUGE for this game. With all 17 civs on the board, not only will we have many cities to trade with, but we will have many GOOD cities to trade with (more opposing civs = more opposing capitals = more larger cities). Our tech route will not take us to Corporation, making The Great Lighthouse even more likeable. The only unlikeable part would be the Great Merchant points, but Merchants can be used for trade routes to burn on research or lightbulbing other techs.

One issue with the direct tech line: military techs will be sorely missing. Macemen will be as good as we get, but they do have a good shelf life so if we tech fast enough we can put them to good use. However, expanding to the required population (would it be worth it to sneak in Biology? perhaps after Mass Media?) for a backdoor domination is going to cramp our research style.

It would be easier to do it with Grenadiers, but that would involve adding in Education -> Gunpowder -> Engineering -> Chemistry

... maybe Rifles instead? Ed -> Gun -> Replaceable Parts
... maybe Cossacks? Ed -> Gun -> Philosophy -> Nationalism -> Mil Trad

So here is the question? Which will be faster: bloating our overhead expenses with a classical age Mace war to expand to the required population while we try to tech merrily along? Or diverging for one of the three gunpowder units, potentially saving beakers in overhead. It's something to think on, and again, I really will not be able to give it the time until tomorrow (after I play Soooo-4, I know -- but we're almost to an immortal level victory there!).

We really will be helped with a strong ally or two: they will be good trading partners, good warmongers so they can take the overhead expenses of too many cities, and their votes will be our votes (ideally). A strategy for this will be nice to think over, but will probably have to wait for an in-depth analysis until we actually get in the game a little bit.

More to come...

[pindicator]

My initial thought for using Great People at this game was to horde them and pop them off towards the end of the game. The early thinking behind this is that our tech path requires a middle age war expansion to hit the required population, leaving us large and potentially bloated economically, but large also increases the beaker amount we get for each Great Scientist (formula is AFAIK (1500 + 3*pop)*1.5 for epic spead). We would wait until after researching Scientific Method to get the most out of the Great Library and then start popping scientists on the subsequent techs. Gr. Artists will also be useful, but not nearly as much; their formula is (1000 + 2*pop)*1.5. So we can probably assume ~3000 beakers for a scientist and ~2000 beakers for an Artist. All artists will be worth keeping to

Next step was to check the Great Person preference chart listed here. I won't replicate the list because it is quite long. I'm going to assume we have all scientists here for simplicity's sake, but I will go into other types of GP afterwards.

After Scientific Method (5382 beakers on epic), we can pop 2 scientists to research most of Physics (8970 beakers), and then pick up another free Great Scientist. So far so good.

Next tech we need is then Electricity (10090 beakers). This is where the plan falls apart a little: Electricity is #18 on the preference list. Education is #5 and will be accessible for the Great Person to pop at that time. Other potential pitfalls would be Philosophy at #10 and Chemistry at #11. Philo needs Meditation and we are talking about getting it anyway, while Chem needs Engineering which we aren't going for. But Education is still in the way of this strat. If we learn or trade for Education, Electricity would be next at this point.

After Electricity is Radio (13455 beakers). Radio is where things fall apart. It enters the preference list at #45, right below Mining. If we do our streamline tech path and then go to spend a Gr. Sci on Radio, we would need to research Fission (#12), Engineering (#30), Gunpowder (#37) and then Gunpowder would open up Chemistry (#11), Biology (#17), Medicine (#26), Refrigeration (#31) but then we would be free to pop Radio with our Great Scientist.

So obviously Great Scientists are not going to get us there on their own. They definitely will help get us to Physics, and potentially Electricity if we don't mind diverging for Education. What other great people can we use?

Electricity is also poppable with a Great Engineer. However, it is #23 on the Gr. Engineer list, and below techs like Engineering (#8) and Replaceable Parts (#9) so Scientists are a better choice for Electricity. In this game, Great Engineers are probably better settled for their beakers.

Radio is also poppable with Great Artists. Radio is #7 on the Great Artist list, but behind several other techs we will have available. Drama is #2 on the list, and Music is #3. The other potential snag is Monarchy at #5, but as long as we don't research Monotheism or Priesthood we won't have to worry about that. Drama and Music are both cheap techs, and late in the game can either be traded for cheaply or researched in 1 or 2 turns. However, with our rough estimate at 2000 beakers per pop, we would need 6-7 Gr Artists to pop the tech in 1 turn.

Mass Media (8073 beakers) is #6 on the Gr Artist list. (It is also #61 on the Gr Scientist list, so we're not even going to bother.) But it is also the cheapest late-game tech we will be researching.


So if we did plan to burn GPs to get most of our late-game researching, the best use would be to burn scientists until we hit Radio, and then burn Artists on Radio and Mass Media. This will mean picking up Education at some point in the game.

Further questions that come to mind:

What are your thoughts in general in Great People popping late in the game with our bee-line strat?

How worth it will it be to store some Great Artists for late game use on Radio and/or Mass Media? To incorporate them into a larger GPP strategy?

A settle Great Scientist will get 18bpt with Representation and settled in a town with a Library, Observatory, and Academy. If we go for Education, this would be upped to 29.25bpt in the mid/late game. At 18bpt a settled sci would hit 3000bpt in 167 turns, at 29.25bpt it will hit that in 103 turns. With all this in mind, when is the best to settle Gr. Sci? Build academies? To pop with them? To use them for a Golden Age?

How many turns do people propose it will take us from the start of the game to learn Mass Media?


IMO, Leaning heaviliy on GPP research at the end of the game does not seem as strong an end-game strat as first anticipated. But it will still be an important component of our late-game strategy. Because of this, the argument for divering to pick up Education seems to carry more weight. And then if we diverge for Education, do we stop there or do we diverge for Philosophy as well? Liberalism?

[sooooo]

Good analysis pindicator. In summary, the only techs we can reliably pick up with GSs are sci meth and physics. Other techs will depend of what other techs we have. I still like the route which avoids education, but we'll wait and see.

Another thing is that we should agree to almost every demand, the only exception possibly being alphabet when we have a monopoly.

The save goes live tonight, so we'd better make a roster and a plan for the first player. If you guys are still happy for me to be leader, then I propose this order:

Kikinit
blid
sooooo
pindicator
Ralph Jackson
Rihiter

So let's download that HoF mod and make a plan for the starting turns!

How about this one:

Move scout north, see if there is much more land up there. If it's a normal continent, start a warrior. If the island consists of just what we can see and not much more, start a settler.

Research fishing then sailing then bronze working.

[Kikinit]

Sooooo, you've got my vote to continue as the ringleader for this SGOTM. I've also got no problem with starting the game off. I've got the HoF mod installed and can't do too much to screw up on the first 20 turns.

[pindicator]

What about scouting E->S to make sure that we aren't missing out on a better resource by moving the settler one tile E? I normally wouldn't suggest moving away from that second clam, but if there's a resource to the fog in the east, then wouldn't it be better to move the settler to grab that resource and leave the far west clam for a second city on that southwest isle?

[sooooo]

That's a good point. If there is seafood at the spot 2E, that would be better than the current spot because we save a floodplains.

[blid]

I like pindicator idea too. Kikin can move the scout and post a screenshot for us (don't forget to save and reload after your move or you'll get skinned )

Looking at the save, we may well be on a small island and there's a nice production city up north to build the great lighthouse. If it's the case, then barbs are no threat and sooooo idea of settler first is a good option. We can take a small risk by starting on a settler and switch to warrior if there's a threat nearby. In any case, we should switch to workboat the time we discover fishing.

Depending on where to settle and the initial build (settler/no growth or warrior/growth), we should build the workboat using a productive tile or let the city grow to size 2 first then switch to two productive tiles to optimize production/food. I'll let Kikin do the math

@sooooo : do we need sailing before bronzeworking ? If we can get the settler before both technologies are discovered, knowing copper location if any would be helpful to determine second city position. We won't be able to start a lighthouse asap but it shouldn't be delayed much


@pindicator: thanks for you analysis. What I think based on your calculations is that artists are not worth the trouble. We'll need drama and/or caste system to spawn them. We may get drama late and I prefer slavery overall since we're not spiritual (can't do emergency civic swaps). I think the earlier I got mass media was in the 1600. There are not much entries in the HOF for warlords but there is a 1500 win on monarch and 1400 on deity (tiny map though). We can use 1500 as a treshold to decide best strategy for great people. Does anyone one know the relation between years and turns on epic speed ?

Originally Posted by pindicator

Philo needs Meditation and we are talking about getting it anyway, while Chem needs Engineering which we aren't going for. But Education is still in the way of this strat. If we learn or trade for Education, Electricity would be next at this point.

Why do we need to research meditation ? If we want to go along the lower tech branch, then we must lock philosophy by not researching nor trading for meditation. I managed to pop machinery with a scientist this way, and the same stand for sea techs (optics and astro). OTOH, we need poly for literature if we want to chase the great library

[sooooo]

Originally Posted by blid

@sooooo : do we need sailing before bronzeworking ? If we can get the settler before both technologies are discovered, knowing copper location if any would be helpful to determine second city position. We won't be able to start a lighthouse asap but it shouldn't be delayed much

Don't think it makes too much difference. Either order will let us build a galley when we want to if we need to make one to settle our next city.

[pindicator]

@blid -- I think you're right about Artists. If we get one or two accidentally along the way we can save them for the late game, but we shouldn't try for them. Since we're philosophical I'm thinking of other ways we can use great people well. A late-game push is obviously out. But what about using Gr. Scientists to pop Astronomy for earlier, quicker Observatories. I'm also thinking that burning a Gr. Sci on Education is a good idea so we can take advantage of cheap Universities and also Oxford.

Concerning Philosophy, somebody proposed a philo deviation. Actually, since we're philosophical already, running pacifism will not give quite as much benefit as if we were not (+50% net increase vs. +100% net). I agree that those should be skipped.

That's a good idea bout those HoF submissions. I'm going to go research those and see if there are any write-ups with their submissions. I haven't nosed around that part of the web site too much.