The Emperor Masters' Challenge 4 (Warlords v.208)

Gandhi is toast if the war doesn't end soon. Weight on bribing HC off him if you get the chance. Also, trade for maps with Gandhi.

Judging by Nappy's stacks SE of Novgorod Saladin won't lose a single city vs him. They'll do some pillaging tho.

You can build a galleon on your west coast for two reasons. The first is scouting on Vitcos. Once you see SAMs, then HC has started the Apollo (the powergraph might indicate SAM ugrades too). The second is sending a Buddhist missionery in Russia - you will see why.

Saladin discovered Combustion two rounds ago and he is now constructing a well. So it's promoted rifles, machine guns, cannons and destroyers you will face in a war against him. But you don't really need to do that to get Oil.

On oil:
1. You may not need it.
or
2. Get it with a GA (build ST and pop one). The Arabian city close to Novgorod has only 20% defense so its culture is very low. The other oil resource near the eastern coast is also flippable with the Hermitage+Stupa+settled GA in your city there.
or
3. War for it - but in Victos. Easy win. The AI sucks in cross-pond warfare.
or
4. Send a missionary in the Russian city. By the time you research Plastics the city will have reached 500 culture (it will have at least +2 Palace and +1 Religion), so gift Plastics to Peter, and demand the oil when he platforms it. This way you will have Oil for Composites units.
or
5. War for it vs Saladin. Nappy will love you. You might even cripple a major rival. However, it is almost certain now that HC will lead the AI space race.

I don't see any defensive pacts that could improve safety.

I would go for Assembly Line. Your GP are still cheap, so build a factory in your National Epic city and pop a GE. Do not waste money on infantry upgrades if you are going for the space win. Instead, build your units in Wonsan.

Why no SoL? It will be a great wonder for you, or nice cash at the very least.

Trading rice, wheat, or corn to the leading AIs in the end game enables them to run an extra town/watermill instead of an irrigation in all their major cities. Switch the deal to Spice or cancel it: the spaceship endgame has different trade rules anyway.

Finally, consider "what if" the UN comes before your spaceship launches. Is there anyone in position for Diplomatic win? At this point, the AIs have only space and diplomatic available. You have space, diplo, and domination.

aelf said:

But Fibre Optics also obsoletes the Kremlin. That's quite a big catch.

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Ouch, you're going to buy the space elevator with it don't you? In that case my research line is off. I seldom build Kremlin because i'm running representation and running US is costly even for 5 turns. Does the Space elevator come with Satelites or robotics in warlords? If the first you might be able to buy it before fiber optics but obviously the science slider must be quite low for some turns in this case. Probably not a good idea.

Good catch with Fission letting you build naval units without oil! I'm so used to getting them with oil that I forgot about uranium...

As for the military aspect, since you'll go for Robotics anyway you'll be able to get Mechanized Infantry that doesn't require oil IIRC. If you have Aluminium in your territory that should solve all your problems.

In my experience, any civ will sign a defensive pact with you if you've got friendly status. I would suggest that as soon as Napoleon makes peace with Saladin you need to do this with him. It'll keep him happy because of the "our defensive pact makes us grow closer together" bonus and i doubt that any of the AIs will attack you, providing they're not furious wth him. This should mean that you wont have to take that city 4 the oil. You could also tell Napoleon to attack it himself. If he does then your culture may take the oil. However i think you also have to be at war with the same person to say why dont u attack ....wherever. I dont really think you can afford a war right now so unless Napoleon asks then i would steer clear of the conflict. I would prepare an army just in case he comes asking. Then u can quickly secure the oil and hopefully avoid to much fighting.

Whatever happens i think u should get a defensive pact (and permanent alliance, although i doubt thats enabled) with Napoleon ASAP.

Dirk1302 said:

Does the Space elevator come with Satelites or robotics in warlords? If the first you might be able to buy it before fiber optics but obviously the science slider must be quite low for some turns in this case. Probably not a good idea.

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In Warlords, you need both techs to open the space elevator. It's often worth building to deny it to the AI, as much as to obtain it for yourself.

GNP looks very encouraging and the hammer bonus from US is probably worth more to you in this game than the shared civic bonus with Napoleon. You've successfully engineered it that he and Saladin hate each other more than either hates you, which is about the best defense you can hope for under the circumstances. As far as the other continent is concerned, Huyana or Ramases would both make decent allies across the water.

Oil isn't necessary as you've already stated, so the only question left to discuss is whether to join any war if Napoleon asks you to. I'd be inclined to say yes, and sacrifice a tech to the other continent to get any of them in on it too if that's possible. Should slow down their teching a bit and help with relations, which can only be a good thing. In these situations where the diplomatic picture is fairly scattered, assigning a global whipping boy with the power not to get utterly crushed in 10 turns flat generally helps to simplify things greatly.

Now all you need do is pray for aluminium, otherwise heading for a couple of the happy wonders may be the only way to leverage a trade for some. I generally research industrialism before rocketry to speed the Apollo build because of that, which frees up the ironworks city to churn out some artillery in between.

I like the idea of gifting Plastics to Peter and then demanding oil from him. He can't refuse, can he? And if he does, he's the one who effectively declares war, right?

I also thought about generating a GE for the Space Elevator. If we start now, with luck we should be able to get one out in time for it. The rest of the wonder can be rushed if things prove dire. We really need aluminium.

I think a defensive pact with Nappy is a good idea. The diplomatic bonus from it might keep him friendly, and it will prevent Saladin from overrunning us in the future. AIs who have signed defensive pacts with you are also less likely to attack you, in my experience. Besides, as patagonia said, Nappy and Saladin hate each other more than they hate us.

Too bad Ramesses won't go to war with HC. I think that would really help reduce the latter's power and keep Gandhi alive.

"One more city..."

Warrior's motto?

the thing about a defensive pact with nappy is it ends if he declares war on someone. so you won't be able to bribe him against saladin anymore. so only do it if you feel you are ahead of saladin and he's no longer a threat.

I took a look at the save again. The oil is too far from Vladivostok for its borders to claim it. But, as I'm in the middle of playing the next round, it seems events have taken a greater turn. I'm having lots of fun playing this game

If you get a great artist, put him in Moscow and paint/culture the city for a boost and it may push the border over the oil tile.

Well, this game is going well enough and is proving to be much more fun than the couple of offline games I've played since getting 2.08. The problem is it's going pretty because each turn is becoming longer. And it doesn't help that I need to make difficult decisions.

Post it here and we'll help you with the decisions.

I worked hard and finished playing the round. Will post the update today or tomorrow.

aelf said:

I took a look at the save again. The oil is too far from Vladivostok for its borders to claim it. But, as I'm in the middle of playing the next round, it seems events have taken a greater turn. I'm having lots of fun playing this game

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Good to hear that Aelf
Earlier in the game you were a bit tired of civ4. I'm glad things have turned around.

Godel said:

Good to hear that Aelf
Earlier in the game you were a bit tired of civ4. I'm glad things have turned around.

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The EMCs are what's keeping my interest in the game. Even then, I nearly lost it completely in this one. It's only thanks to the fortunate developments in past few rounds that this game does not descend to the monolithic boredom that are my few offline games.

Anyway, I'll try to post at least half of the update later.

Round 9: 1610AD - 1725AD

So the decision was to research Assembly Line next for infantry and factories. And we would not grab oil by force unless Nappy asked us to join the war against the Arabs. Infantry, artillery and, later, mech infantry would be sufficient for defense. And we would be able to build a modern navy after Fission.

The first thing that happened was the completion of our second wonder in this game:



I don't know how much we'll end up using it, but I think it would be very useful when we do.

Then Ramesses asked us to convert:



Since that would be a thoroughly stupid decision, given the circumstances, I declined.

What followed immediately was the moment that we dreaded:



For the sake of continuing our good relations with the French, we were compelled to accede. Oh well, at least we would have a shot at getting oil now.

We brought all the siege weapons that we had to Muscat and captured it within the first few turns of the war:



But, unfortunately, as you can see, the oil would still not be under our control. We would have to capture/raze Teoihuacan, and it was difficult to tell whether we could do that.

We finished researching Assembly Line soon after. I checked the tech screen and found out that we could make this trade:



This was quite a good deal. We could certainly use some Artillery to capture Teoihuacan, and the gold would be useful for making an upgrade or two. The only downside was we would be helping Huayna in his war against Gandhi. But, IMO, the latter's toast anyway and it was better that we prioritise our own needs. And it might be a good idea to drop Gandhi (whom Napoleon strongly dislikes, for some reason) and start sucking up to HC. So the deal was closed.

After that, I sold Assembly Line to Napoleon for 430 gold to help him and get more cash to fund our upgrades and research. Next tech would be Electricity (aided slightly by our remaining GS), followed by the all-important Industrialism and the knowledge of where aluminium lies.

Up to this point, Arab incursions happened mainly in the north, coming from the small cities Saladin settled. But these incursions were minor, although it forced us to reinforce (with a little difficulty) our longbow garrisons with gunpowder units that are capable of counterattacking. A respectable stack marched to Besancon (the small northern French colony) and captured it with great losses. I sent two infantries to get rid of the remnants of the stack and retake the city for Napoleon.

Soon after we got Assembly Line, though, Saladin got it as well and began mass upgrading to infantry. He seemed to decide then to throw whatever units he didn't upgrade, as well as Camel Archers lol, at our southeastern border cities. We succeeded at destroying most of his units (especially the pillaging camels) but his cannons were quite annoying, repeatedly attacking our garrisons and successfully withdrawing. The AI's luck must be amazing or something. He was most successful at Nampo, where he managed to pillage a few tiles and pin our units down with cannons. I had to upgrade a grenadier to infantry to make sure the city didn't fall.

Napoleon seemed to bear the brunt of the new Arab infantry armies. Earlier, he had (surprisingly) succeeded in capturing the Arab city of Numidian, though no doubt with great losses. After Saladin's mass upgrading, it was his turn to lose a city (Tours). And the force that was behind that offensive was frightening:



Nevertheless, the sack of Numidian (and the contesting of Tours) had probably helped us by taking Saladin's attention away from Teoihuacan, resulting in its capture by our forces:



And we were lucky. Our two cannons and single remaining Hwacha inflicted enough collateral damage on the defending units, and one of our artillery annihilated a CGIII Arab infantry at very bad odds. This allowed our CR III artillery to face the single Arab machine gun in the city, which naturally had not sustained any collateral damage. We had good odds for that battle, thanks to artillery's inherent bonus vs. siege (which is no doubt designed to counter machine guns), and it was won. The city was thus taken, and with minimal losses too.

Now we faced a difficult decision: Should we raze or keep the city? Razing the city would enrage Saladin, but given Napoleon's tenuous situation, I was not sure he could hold on to Numidian. The recapture of Numidian by the Arabs would exert great cultural pressure on Teoihuacan, and we would have trouble keeping the city. It would certainly be easy to lose quickly to a determined Arab offensive, which would effectively nullify our efforts at getting oil. In order not to lose the gains we have made from this war, I decided to raze the city.

Then I sued for peace. Arab destroyers have completely wiped out our small frigate navy and pillaged our fishing boats on the eastern coast. They were also starving our coastal cities, especially Nampo, which was beginning to lose population. Due to the loss of the seafood, we were also beginning to get unheathiness in our bigger cities. WW was also mounting and our culture slider was already at 20% to keep our cities running. Continuing the war would be costly.

But, unfortunately, due to Saladin's relative (and lucky) success at Siege of Nampo, he thought he had a good chance at getting that city and demanded that we surrender it to him for peace. Of course, that was unacceptable. However, I thought we could probably get peace by giving him one of our techs. Now comes another difficult decision. Should we do so? I was not inclined to help Saladin in any way, but I was also eager to end the war. If we do give him a tech, Communism was the best choice, since it would only give him access to the SP civic. Electricity (which leads to Industrialism) and Artillery are a no no, while Democracy would give him access to Emancipation, the lack of which seemed to be keeping his cities smaller.

After thinking for a while, I decided that ending the war was more beneficial than denying Saladin Communism, so I offered the deal:



He accepted, and the war ended. I pondered about bribing Napoleon to make peace with him, but I figured we should keep them at it a little longer while we build up our military.

This is the kind of limited war I love to fight in Civ4. We made good gains, although they are well short of the sweeping kind (which often implies a heavily lopsided contest of strength), and won a small victory through the superior mobilization and concentration of our forces. The Arabs might have vastly superior numbers, but we had slightly better technology and vastly superior strategy and tactics. It seems this is the way than the human should go when up against a higher difficulty AI now. However, one wonders when the superior numbers would just totally overwhelm any advantage of intelligence that the human might have. The (continuing) improvements to the AI urgently need a counterbalance, otherwise the game would just descend to a mad aggressive rush everytime. Drewbledsoe told me recently that he had managed to find a balance by removing the subsidies for the AI's upgrades, and I think that's a good idea. I wonder when the folks at Firaxis would wake up and start considering such ideas to correct the imbalance in the game.

[to be continued in the next post...]

The next part of the update will be up either tonight or tomorrow.

I have to say I've enjoyed this EMC the most. I've gotten so used to a particular playstyle that I forget at times there are alternatives that can still lead to victory at higher difficult levels. Can we get a screenshot of the power graph and diplomatic screen to see the relations?

aelf said:

The (continuing) improvements to the AI urgently need a counterbalance, otherwise the game would just descend to a mad aggressive rush everytime. Drewbledsoe told me recently that he had managed to find a balance by removing the subsidies for the AI's upgrades, and I think that's a good idea. I wonder when the folks at Firaxis would wake up and start considering such ideas to correct the imbalance in the game.

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You are still at the 2.08 version, right? Blake & team have made a lot of improvements since then, if you compare the latest build to 2.08 it is a much bigger difference than comparing 2.08 to say 1.61. They did come out with a set of re-balanced handicaps, including a reduction in the upgrade discount, but the changes have been a bit controversial and were not in the latest release. In the ideal world, the 1.0 version of better AI would get official playtesting at Firaxis, and eventually sucked into a new patch for both Warlords and vanilla. It would be nice if everyone could play the same game again

Darrell

[continued from previous post]

The war saw our position jump to first place, in yet another heartening development. The game is going well so far. Anyway, we got a GG during the early phases of the war. I kept him in reserve in the north, thinking that we might suddenly need a Medic III warlord unit to keep our garrisons alive. Well, since it turned out that we didn't, I sent him to Wonsan to be a GMI:



Now units from that uber military city (HE + MA) would be level 3 immediately.

The war between Nappy and Saladin went on for several more turns, until I saw that the former was about to lose Numidian. I couldn't just let that happen, so I made Nappy sign peace with Saladin:



Our power graph still isn't pretty, although we've been building infantry, so I was quite worried that Napoleon would sudddenly turn on us if we mediated earlier. Now that he seemed to be a little worse off, I thought it was better that we prevent him from losing to Saladin.

Then I tried to sign a Defensive Pact with Napoleon (which is the best way to ensure peace), but he refuses, saying that he doesn't like us enough. What gives? We have a net of +17 in our relations! This just doesn't make sense. Can anyone explain? And it's not that Napoleon never signs Defensive Pacts, since the SDK does not imply that.

Ah, well. Next, we made yet another deal with HC:



He's been the one stop source for techs we don't have all this while. Strange, isn't it? Maybe losing that Agressive trait really made a difference.

And once Industrialism was discovered, look where Aluminim popped up:



All the better for building units. And, most importantly, we have the stuff for a space race. No more war? I hope so, although Saladin might want to take revenge in the future.

Here's where I stopped. With Industrialism in the bag, we have arrived at another technological crossroad. Do we go for Combustion next for a modern navy and tanks, in case Saladin decides to do some sabre-rattling soon? Or do we go for Radio and Computers (on the way to Robotics) and trade for Combustion? Rocketry might seem like the obvious tech to research next for a space race, but I prefer to get a headstart on the Space Elevator (with Robotics) to make sure we get it. The likelihood of getting a GE as the next GP in Seoul is quite low, so we might really need that headstart. We'll still probably end up rush buying part of the wonder with the Kremlin.

Here's the tech screen:



We have Industrialism on HC, who is the most advanced, Electricity and Assembly Line on Ramesses and Electricity and Artillery on Napoleon. I think we've done well enough on the tech department. Enough to get us a space win, if things go well.

The power graph:



Still sad. We've been building units, but it hasn't made much difference. The new AI is really crazy. The upgrade subsidies must be taken away from them.

Our GNP is still doing good:



And, surprisingly, Napoleon is only very slightly surpassed by the second guy (Ramesses), despite the war. That bodes well for us and not for Saladin, who is second worst. At least we don't have to worry about an advanced enemy.

The map of our continent:



Yes, you don't see any units being built now, but that's because I started our unit-producing cities on Factories. And as you can see, the Oxford is being built and the Ironworks is almost complete. Now we are building the remaining banks we need for Wall Street, which will probably go to Pusan. The unhappy faces you see are the result of ivory becoming obsolete (which I think is a stupid idea), but they will disappear from Moscow and Novgorod soon.

Anyway, we are now the largest empire in the world, though not by far. We definitely have enough land to pursue a space win. I think we should work towards preventing war from now on. The lack of a Defensive Pact is not good for that, though.

The other continent:



The war between Huayna and Gandhi is over, in a major victory for the former, of course. However, Gandhi is now vassal to Ramesses, instead of Huayna, which explains the jump in the Egyptian's score to something close to ours. And Ramesses is annoyed with Huayna. That might mean Huayna will be too busy dealing with tensions in his continent to attack us or pursue a space win properly. If it came to blows over there, Huayna will have to fight on two fronts. These are certainly good developments for us

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