veteran diplomats vs. non-veteran diplomats (recruits) - any advantages ?

I've read in one of Civilization 2 guidelines (I read all available Civilization 2 guidelines and manuals cause up to 70% of what they say is applicable to Civilization 1) that veteran spies are much more effective than non-veteran ones. They survive spy operations most of the time so you can use them again and again. Probably there are other advantages of having veterans as some people really insist on having veteran spies not recruit ones.

My question: if there is any point in producing veteran diplomats in Civilization 1 ? Are they somehow better in spy operations (like in inciting a revolt or in industrial sabotage) ?

I tried both veterans and recruits, and could not see any difference at all.

This is a very interesting question.
Unfortunately, I don't know the answer.
I hope that someone can help.

In Civ2 a spy who completes a successful mission and survives becomes veteran. The only other way to get veteran spies is to have a communist government. Note that barracks do not generate vet spies. I do not believe we even have vet diplomats in Civ2. I do not recall seeing one nor do I recall reading about them. I do not recall if there is a way to get vet diplomats in Civ1.
How do you get them?

I just build them in cities with barracks.

The only way to know is to run experiments. Unforunately, experiments are so hard to do in Civ1. In Civ2, they added a cheat menu that is an essential tool for this kind of experimentation.

One aspect, however, can be tested. Produce two diplomats, one vet one regular. Send them to the same city in the same turn and see if the asking price for revolting is the same. In Civ2 a vet spy can start a revolt with less money.

The other aspect, namely the chance of success in sabotage, is harder to experiment with since you need a large number of dips, both vet and regular to gather meaningful data.

I've tried this - couldn't see any difference at all.

Here is a transcription from pages 272-277 of «Sid Meier's Civilization, or Rome on 640K a Day» (by Johnny L. Wilson and Alan Emrich):

Of Bribery, Theft, Sabotage and Diplomacy

Trust me!​

- Machiavelli?​

Believe it or not, the best offensive unit in the game has a zero attack factor. It is the Diplomat unit. After the development of writing, the pen immediately proves itself mightier than the sword by allowing you to create these mischief making masters. When backed with enough money (the "sinews of war"), the damage they can cause is almost limitless. Here is a quick overview of what Diplomat units can do in, more or less, their order of usefulness:

Table 7-7. Diplomat Actions​

Endeavor - Coin Cost? - Diplomat Fate​

Bribe Unit - Yes - Survives
Establish Embassy - No - Destroyed
Steal Technology - No - Destroyed if successful
Incite a Revolt - Yes - Destroyed if successful
Industrial sabotage - No - Destroyed
Meet with Ruler - ??? - Survives

The Art of Diplomatic Warfare
Bribery
Diplomats are useful for recruiting enemy pieces to your own side by bribing them. Where this can be the most devastating is having a diplomat sit on a friendly, front line city and wait for the enemy to come knocking at the door (particulary the slow, heavy hitting Catapult, Cannon and Artillery units). The newly recruited unit, however, will not be able to move until the new owner's next turn.

Note that the Diplomat unit is never at risk when attempting to bribe a unit (a contradiction to the statement on page 39 of the rules book which indicates that failure to bribe a unit destroys the Diplomat). Since there is no down side to attempting to bribe a unit (a failed attempt doesn't even the Diplomat's movement for the turn), if you want to bribe multiple units, a single Diplomat (backed by large quantities of cash) is all that is necessary to buy every enemy unit it can contact. Therefore, with a single Diplomat and a lot of cash, you can no only blunt an attack against a friendly city, but create the nucleus of an army with which to repay the enemy's aggression!

Interestingly, the computer players very seldom bribe the human player's unit (and never attempt to incite riots in other player's cities). Don't make this mistake. Bribe enemy units like crazy! Here's the formula used for determining the cost to bribe a given unit:

Bribery Cost Formula
Bribe = ((Funds + 750) / (Dist + 2)) * Cost​

Bribe = Bribe / 2 if unit is not a Settler
Funds = Enemy's treasury
Dist = Distance from enemy Palace in squares (diagonal squares count as approximately 1.5 squares distance)
If no Palace, Dist = 32. If barbarian, Dist = 16
Cost = Build cost / 10 (i.e., Legion = 2)

Translated, that means it will be more affordable to bribe cheaper units (Cost) from poorer enemies (Funds) who are further away from their capitols (Dist). Also, Settler units will cost a LOT more than other units. Remember, an enemy's treasury level is known if one has an embassy established!

Here's a final tip on bribing units: Become the scourge of the seas. Yes, enemy ships can be bribed (as can Bombers in mid air) as long as they are not stacked with other units (thus, enemy Carriers and Transports, if loaded, will not be susceptible to bribery). By having Diplomats near the coast to counter enemy shore bombardment, or roaming the high seas like pirates on friendly ships, a wealthy player can rapidly purchase a navy by jumping Diplomat units aboard enemy vessels.

Embassies
Diplomat's primary functions, however, come into play when they move into an enemy city. The first Diplomat in should almost always establish an embassy. For the rest of the game, you will be informed of the other civilization's position in the game both through your Intelligence Advisor (i.e., by hitting the F3 key), as well as by the great historians. Knowing the enemy's treasury level (particulary as it applies to the formulae presented in this book), number of military units possessed and whom that player is at war and peace with are all vital to successful decision making. To that end, the long-term benefits to an embassy are considerable.

Stealing Technologies
After the first Diplomat establishes an embassy, stealing technologies is a particularly useful pastime. While you will not get to choose which technology gets stolen as you will after conquering a city (assuming there is more than one in which you lag behind), it is still worth expending the Diplomat unit in order to save a lot of valuable R&D time. Note that there is a limit of one technology per enemy city per game that can be stolen. This only applies to the human player (the computer players are handicapped here by only being allowed to raid the human player's cities once per game, not once per player per game). This limit applies for the human player even if a "plucked" city is later conquered by another civilization (the people in the city remember one's past misdeed's, apparently).

Note that this requires a state of war to initiate, so players at peace with their opponents cannot simply flood their borders with Diplomats, stealing a technology from every city, and not have to worry about the political consequences. This is particularly important for the representative governments of The Republic and Democracy, since Senate approval is necessary in order to use a Diplomat to steal a technology from a city prior to its conquest whenever possible. In that manner, you can double dip from the enemy's technology pool.

Inciting Riots
Inciting cities to riot and revolt is something which must be weighed carefully. Often, it is simply more practical to employ military units against an enemy city and take the risks involved in conquering it. Representative governments, in particular, will often find themselves in a position where they are long on cash and short on military units. For such occasions, when you have more dollars than sense (ahem), this form of economic warfare is a very tidy (albeit expensive) way of expanding one's empire. Note that an enemy's capitol city is not subject to bribery, and that you will have to use military force at some point in order to completely crush an opponent.

When you are not at war, Diplomats backed up by enough money will be offered a chance to pay double the cost to subvert the city. The only difference between paying double to subvert it (besides the money) is that paying subversion converts the city without causing a war to break out. In other words, there are no messy political consequences from your peaceful neighbour. In either case of revolt or subversion, the city and all of the units in it, and nearby that it supports, join you.

Dissident Cost Formula​

Bribe = (Funds + 1000) / (Dist + 3) * City size​

Bribe = Bribe / 2 if city is in disorder
Funds = Enemy's treasury
Dist = Distance from enemy palace in squares (diagonal squares count as approximately 1.5 squares distance)
If no Palace, Dist = 32. If barbarian, Dist = 16

In other words, it is more economical to incite revolts in cities belonging to poorer neighbours (Funds) that are furthest away from their Palace (Dist). Furthermore, it's always half price to bribe an enemy city in disorder.

Industrial Sabotage
If a city has already had its technological pockets picked, and you are too poor to buy its loyalties by inciting a revolt, performing industrial sabotage is a reasonable, if not always cost effective, proposition. When you consider the benefits versus risks of industrial sabotage, the balance sheet is often, but certainly not always, positive. This option is particularly useful for governments at peace with their neighbours but who still wish to cause them some mischief. Industrial sabotage can be conducted without triggering a war (and thus, without requiring Senate approval for representative governments).

On the benefits side, an expensive unit (or even a wonder) being constructed by that city might be disrupted. Unfortunately, you will not know if the enemy was one turn into production or one turn away from completion without expending another Diplomat on an "investigate city" mission.

Likewise, the city's walls might come tumbling down, making the city easier to attack. However, something much quicker and easier to replace (like a Temple, Barracks or Granary) is just as likely to be destroyed, making your own cost in expending a precious Diplomat of negligible value. Industrial sabotage is a hit or miss poposition at best, and should really only be used if you are out of cagey ideas for your diplomatic corps. Since Diplomats, like Caravans, require no shields to maintain nor do they cause sad faces when they depart their cities, it is often wiser to keep them safe in the heart of your empire until just the right moment, rather than expend them frivolously.

Investigating Enemy Cities
Because of their dynamic, changing nature, it is usually not wise to expend Diplomats in the task of investigating cities. As the immediate precursor to an attack, perhaps, as a means of seeing exactly how many units might be defending a city (usually, computer players will garrison their cities with from three to five land units), such reconnaissance might be beneficial. Hunting around to find an enemy's Palace might be another practical ploy for investigating a city (but Palaces seldom move from a civilization's first established city, and when they do it is usually announced in a popup window). Still, the loss of a Diplomat is a high price to pay for a mental "snap shot" of a city that will be building improvements and new units, while shuffling troops in and out all the while. Such intelligence is very fleeting.

Meeting with the King
Meeting with a Ruler on your own terms is no better than meeting with him at his behest. Consequently, unless you are currently enjoying the benefits of either the Great Wall or United Nations wonder (or playing at the Chieftain difficulty level), it is often pointless to bother. One exception might be when you are conducting wars on several fronts and want to buy a peace with one neighbour or another (assuming they'll even listen).

While the formula for determining the amount of tribute demanded by haughty enemy leaders is complicated, it can be explained simply. Basically, the number of attack factors the enemy leader has on continents where you have cities is compared to the number of attack factors the player has on continents where the enemy leader has cities, modified by the difficulty level selected for the game (see Chapter 2). There are also modifications for possession of nuclear weapons (more if the enemy has them, less if the player has them).

If you launched a sneak attack against the enemy leader, the price demanded doubles. If you have recently captured one of the enermy's cities, the price is reduced. When the enemy leader demands tribute, if he wants more than you have, he'll ask for it all, rounded down to the nearest $50. If the enemy leader wants twice as much as you possess, there will be no demand for tribute made. Instead, the player will only be notified of the continuing state of war.

This is a very interesting question.
Unfortunately, I don't know the answer.
I hope that someone can help.

Click to expand...

This is the most useless post I have ever seen.

As for your next post, it seems that veteranship has no effect on diplomats.