ALC Game 11: Carthage/Hannibal

[KMadCandy]

Originally Posted by cabert

^^KMad is right. The patch is using only part of the "better AI".
I watched MM switch from cottages to farm and from farm to cottage for half the game (he was my vassal)

KMad is soooooo tempted to quote your first 3 words in her sig!!!

[cabert]

Originally Posted by KMadCandy

KMad is soooooo tempted to quote your first 3 words in her sig!!!

well, be my guest
It may not happen THAT often

[drkodos]

Originally Posted by KMadCandy

KMad is soooooo tempted to quote your first 3 words in her sig!!!

Cuidado!

Going third person in posting should be relegated to the mentally insane, professional atheletes, and/or megalomaniacal Hollywood has-beens.

[PMabey]

Originally Posted by drkodos

Cuidado!

Going third person in posting should be relegated to the mentally insane, professional atheletes, and/or megalomaniacal Hollywood has-beens.

Be careful!

Using spanish in posting should be relegated to the mentally insane, and spanish websites.

[Syndrome Zed]

Originally Posted by VoiceOfUnreason

Assuming the dispute with the Khan can be resolved on favorable terms, I would expect to be able to bring home the space ship. Territory will be a big boost to the research rate, and I would expect to be able to keep Toku and Shaka on trading terms.

Not to mention using spies in the future to keep Huayna from getting too spacey while your increased research speed blows by him. I've drawn out a couple AI space programs almost indefinitely by constantly knocking down production in the Apollo Program City by sabotaging mines and such .

[Sisiutil]

Good ideas, everyone. The next round is almost finished and was a particularly bloody one; I hope to post it later tonight.

[jerVL/kg]

Originally Posted by Sisiutil

...a particularly bloody one...

Oooh, my favorite three words...can't wait!

BTW, something's bugging me -- why is Kublai Khan using Qin's leaderhead?

[flamingzaroc121]

in the warlords patch 2.08 they were switched back because in vanilla civ, Qin was using Kublai's leaderhead and visa-versa

Edit here is a link

[jerVL/kg]

Originally Posted by flamingzaroc121

in the warlords patch 2.08 they were switched back because in vanilla civ, Qin was using Kublai's leaderhead and visa-versa

Huh. That's gonna take a long time getting used to -- especially since Qin-formerly-Kublai looks so much meaner than the other one...

[Sisiutil]

Round 7: 1550 AD to 1880 AD, Part 1

Yep, another long round. I wanted to go up against Kublai again, and this time bring things to a definitive conclusion.

I started with a civics change--the first of several in this round.



Nationhood to draft Riflemen, and Theocracy for the XPs. Turns out I'd need Nationhood's happiness bonus for barracks, too.

I also built several Macemen in Utica while I waited to finish researching Rifling. They all got City Raider II, and thanks to the Charismatic trait, would earn CRIII and get upgraded to Riflemen before too long. If I hadn't needed to draft so many Riflemen, I would have run Vassalage, which would have put the Macemen 1 XP away from their desired promotion.

Before going to war, I managed to make a couple more deft tech trades with the neighbours:







Eventually, though, I felt ready. However, I decided to see if I could stir things up beforehand:



Since he agreed, I decided to give him a hand--in return for another tech, of course:



With Corporation in hand, I decided to improve my economic civics at long last:



I know I skipped over Mercantilism, but it didn't make sense to me, with a civ whose UB provides an additional trade route, to cut off foreign trade completely. And I had built several Cothons by this point, I'll have you know.

I was really hoping that Kublai would take that annoying northern Zulu city, but of course the AI is too incompetent at war to even manage something as simple as that. And only a few turns went by before Shaka came begging for help:



All right, fine, time to take down the Mongolian. I renewed my attack on Tiflis, and this time I was successful:



I then went west to march on the Mongolian capital. Shortly before taking it, I finished researching a technology that would be crucial for the rest of the campaign:



I would wind up using Artillery as my main city attackers, and territory defenders as well. This was crucial, since Kublai obtained Railroad and started building Machine Guns. Until I got Assembly Line for Infantry, only Artillery were capable of dislodging the MGs (and even then the Infantry needed Artillery support to be successful). I've never got so much out of them in a single game before. And they kept racking up City Raider promotions thanks to Charismatic's discount XPs.

With another tech in hand, it was time to see what I could get for it:



And yes, you guessed it, another civics change. You'd think I thought I was spiritual or something...



In all seriousness, though, several civs beat me to Democracy and changed to Emancipation, so I had that penalty on top of the war weariness, and it was just killing me. Switching to Emancipation helped my economy in both that respect and for the cottage growth, as well. It certainly helped that I was capturing several mature cottages from Kublai.

I made another trade with Shaka, who's been very useful in that regard--he's this games Mansa Musa!



Continued in part 2, where the war on my continent ran the danger of becoming a free-for-all!

[Sisiutil]

Round 7: 1550 AD to 1880 AD, Part 2

I wasn't done tech trading, nosireebob:





I was fortunate to be able to hit up almost everybody in order to avoid the dreaded WFYABTA excuse.

Oh, hey, a few turns went by--time for another civics change!



Well, come on, it's State Property, arguably the most powerful civic in the game. And with my research rate and income in free fall thanks to war weariness, I needed all the help I could get.

I then pulled an aelf-style trade, taking advantage of the AI's devaulation of a tech you've partially researched:



Hey, it saved me 5 turns of research, scored me a tidy sum of gold, and updated my world map.

Then things started to get complicated. First of all, Shaka and Kublai made peace. Fine, the Zulu wasn't that much help anyway, and the mutual military struggle diplomatic bonus wasn't making him cough up any free gold for his buddy. Then Cyrus declared war on Kublai. Yeah, nothing makes the AI dog-pile like seeing another civ's power rating in free-fall! Cyrus managed to raze two of Kublai's cities, which the Mongolian then stubbornly rebuilt!

And then... Kublai capitulated.

To Tokugawa.

Oh, joy, just what I needed, a war on two fronts. Fortunately, I had held back a tech from Shaka on purpose, just for a rainy day. Well, it was pouring outside. SHAKAAAAAAA!!! Oh, there you are. Sharpen your spear points, dude:



This was probably the best thing I did in the whole round. Tokugawa got distracted taking Zulu cities (which he did very effectively) and barely came after me. Which was a very good thing, because he beat me to Industrialism. eep.

I built up some forces in Hippo to deal with any Japanese incursion while my stack kept zig-zagging across Mongolia. After taking the cities on the northwest coast, the stack headed east, taking the cities to my north. One was quite a prize:



Too bad the Parthenon is obsolete. Still, this will likely be the Wall Street city since it has the shrine. Also too bad I never got a chance to build a single Christian Monastery. I could always switch to Organized Religion for a few turns and churn out Christian Missionaries, but I think I've had enough civics changes by now, and I don't know if the few additional GPT will make up for the lost commerce and research from anarchy.

I finally finished researching Industrialism, dragging my sorry economy there at a meagre 30% research rate by the end.



War weariness was indeed a bear, and more than once I reconsidered my determination to finish off Kublai. I think if he hadn't been a creative leader with such extended borders (not to mention the assistance he got from the Sistine Chapel), and if Toku had been more aggressive in attacking me, I would have called it off. Maybe that would have been for the best. As it was, though, I had to deal with very few problems from Tokugawa. I even managed to kill off the few tanks he sent my way with an Artillery/Ambush Infantry one-two combination. He sent a few Destroyers at me as well, so I churned several out to sink them. Nevertheless, I was relieved to finally be able to produce Tanks and Battleships.

With my research rate so low, I was falling behind atrociously in techs. Cyrus, Huayna, and Mehmed were running away with the tech lead, and I still had several Mongolian cities to capture. Then I'd have to rebuild my economy! I really only had one possible salvation:



Yep, a bee-line to Fibre Optics for the Internet. That's assuming we're going to go after a space race win. I'm not completely ruling out domination--Radio for Bombers (I'll have to get Flight as well, obviously) would be handy there, too.

And my next Great Person was handy for this tech path too:



He trimmed 3 turns off of Radio at my current, dismal research rate.

My perseverance finally paid off in 1876:



...and Mongolia was no more. But at what price? You'll see how far behind I am in the next post. Almost everyone else has Plastics already, so I'm going to get beat to the Three Gorges Dam, among other things.

At any rate, I decided to end hostilities with Japan, since with Mongolia gone, we had no reason left to fight anymore. (I did kill one more of Tokugawa's tanks, though, just 'cause I'm spiteful sometimes.)



Too bad he wasn't willing to give up any techs.

And then... yes! Of course! One more civics change!



Well, I decided to find out what my research looked like, so we can make a decision about what route to go. I'm back up to 80% research thanks to the civics, as well as deleting any and all obsolete units (anything pre-gunpowder, with a couple of exceptions for medical units, went).

The next post will be a state-of-the-world summary. The saved game file is below.

[Sisiutil]

The State of the World, 1880 AD

Let's start with the Domestic Advisor, so you can get an idea what I'm building:



The Ironworks is going in Old Serai, while I think Wall Street belongs in Turfan, where the Christian shrine is. Aside from that, I thought it was time for some civilian builds, since I have a decent-sized military. How big? Well, let's have a look at the power rating:



So Tokugawa and I are nearly even, while Cyrus and Mehmed are quite far ahead of me. Interesting to see how weak Huayna is. My dip at the end is due to deleting a lot of obsolete units to save on maintenance costs. I'll go back to building a few deterrent units, at least, shortly.

So, how likely is an overseas invasion? Let's have a look at foreign relations:



Well, isn't that nice? Everyone's happy with me except Tokugawa. Ah, the wonders of the Free Religion civic. I could probably get a Defensive Pact with someone if I want--power-leader Cyrus would be the best choice.

Resources:



Too bad Tokugawa won't trade spices--they'd be handy right about now, and there aren't any health-improving techs on the way to Fibre Optics.

Okay, here's the tech board. Brace yourself:



Hmmm, yeah, okay, not lookin' so good. I only have Industrialism on Shaka, by the way. I think you can see why I consider the Internet the only means of having any chance of a Space Race win. I've never actually seen the AI build it, so I'm hoping I have a shot.

Active trade agreements:



Victory conditions:



Yep, Cyrus has already started building space ship parts! And I think Huayna has completed the Apollo Program as well. I don't even have Rocketry yet!

Demographics:



Ah, at least there's some good news. I'm #1 or #2 in almost everything now, and I still have some cities coming out of revolt, and a few that starved during the war and have to rebuild their populations. So, can I rebound? We'll see.

Finally, a look at the map:





So... whaddya think? The Internet and then a come-from-behind rush to the space ship? Or is that a pipe dream at this point? Or should I gird my loins (whatever that means--sounds painful), rally the troops, and go the military route for domination? Tokugawa has Tanks now, and I don't have Rocketry yet for Gunships to counter them easily. It'll be a tough slog at first. And I'm willing to bet that I'll need some land on the other continent for the domination win, even after finishing off Toku and Shaka. The Incan seems like the logical target there--provided he doesn't have a defensive pact with someone! Or should I punt, build the UN, and try for a diplomatic win?

I look forward to your thoughts. Will this be the first ALC that I lose, or can I pull a long-shot victory from the snapping, salivating, offal-drenched jaws of defeat? (Eeewwww...)

(Oh, something minor I forgot to mention. I built a Settler when Cyrus was razing those Mongolian cities, and he's hanging out in Old Serai. Any suggestions on where I could put another city?)

[kniteowl]

You should of found a way to start a war in the other continent while they still had religious differences.

The Internet is quite risky,but it seems to be the only way... you get 2 free techs every turn, as long as another AI has a tech on you, and those 2 free techs are quite random, they could be useless techs that don't give you access to spaceship parts, and every turn coutns in a space race.

Get a few spys to the other continent, once you have the internet online, run 100% (0% research) and start sabotaging the spaceship parts on the other side of the world. a Few Great Merchants would be helpful right about now, so would a few spare Great People for golden ages.

Btw Research Rocketry And Start on the Apollo once Ironworks is complete, and you should builda coal plant in your Ironworks city 1st before building Ironworks, it will speed up the completion of Ironworks. OH wait you have to build the internet too aye?... hmmm this is quite hard becuase once you have internet ypou want to start on your spaceship parts right away... maybe build Apollo in another City, your capital perhaps???

[jerVL/kg]

So...what happened to peaceful?

Definitely go for The Internet, it's your only hope at this point. The AI never builds it, so no worries about that. (Too bad about 3GD, though...) Also you should definitely research Rocketry after Computers and get started on Apollo. With any luck, you might be able to trade Computers for Plastics or even Radio for Plastics. The AI won't trade Fibre Optics, however...you're on your own there.

Hmm, you sure love those civic changes...State Property? Are you sure it's worth the loss of a trade route + a turn? I would've also preferred Organized Religion to get that infrastructure built in your new cities, esp. since everyone else has gone FR now, but it's probably not worth the swap now.

DEFINITELY get some spies over to the other continent -- I forsee lots of sabotage in your future. Maybe a few nukes, as well??

This one's gonna be close...I can't wait to see how it plays out!!!

[jerVL/kg]

Originally Posted by kniteowl

The Internet is quite risky,but it seems to be the only way... you get 2 free techs every turn, as long as another AI has a tech on you, and those 2 free techs are quite random, they could be useless techs that don't give you access to spaceship parts, and every turn coutns in a space race.

Unless they changed it in Warlords, the Internet grants you all the techs IMMEDIATELY if 2 other civs know it. (In one game I beelined the 'Net and got 37 techs right off the bat...)

[Killroyan]

Is diplomatic overboard now? You have 3 pleased and 1 friendly. Too bad Cyrus is your competitor otherwise a defensive pact would have snagged you his votes in the UN-election. How are the relations between the others? Will Cyrus get more votes? If your relations are better maybe it is better to go for mass media and get the un up asap. The space will be a tough one. I am afraid that it is going to be a little too tough.

[cabert]

You're too backwards to try a domination (or conquest ) win now. Cultural seems out too.
Diplo isn't out, but it seems risky at best.
space is the way to go, all hail the Internet suicide rush.

You're in a good space position :
The internet will come fast and save your day. You also have aluminium.

I have just one question :
why representation over US? The happiness boost won't be large enough to matter and a few $rushing moves can really get you going (factories rushed on the turn before you start a space part is a favourite of mine).

[kniteowl]

Originally Posted by jerVL/kg

Unless they changed it in Warlords, the Internet grants you all the techs IMMEDIATELY if 2 other civs know it. (In one game I beelined the 'Net and got 37 techs right off the bat...)

Sorry didn't read the civpedia properly, the internet grants all technologies by any 2 known civs so the 2 civs so it chooses will be quite random lets hope you get the two most advanced civs on your 1st turn, although you'll have all their technologies by turn 3 becuase there's only 6 Civs in the game includuing you and excluding the dead Kubai.

But I still think you should time the completion of Apollo and Internet on the same turn so you can Simutanously build all spaceship parts quickly.

If you have spare production build the The Manhattan Project and a couple of nukes... if your unable to stop the AI from building the last spaceship part because all your spies have been caught, the tiles around the City building the spaceship part becomes useless, you'e saved yourself a few trurn , by declaring wars on the AIs... but it's probably worth it since your near the end game. Btw I havn't used Nukes in Civ4, won most of my dominations before modern era.

[cabert]

Originally Posted by kniteowl

Sorry didn't read the civpedia properly, the internet grants all technologies by any 2 known civs so the 2 civs so it choices will be quite random lets hope you get the two most advanced civs on your 1st turn, although you'll have all their technologies by turn 3 becuase there's only 6 Civs in the game includuing you and excluding the dead Kubai.

BUu I still think you should time the completion of Apollo and Internet on the same turn so you can Simutanously build all spaceship parts quickly

you still didn't understand it
You gain all techs any 2 other civs already know.
And it works for the rest of the game too.

SO as soon as a tech is known by 2 civs, regardless which ones, you instantly know it too.
In fact the internet is the way to punish AI trading whores .

[KMadCandy]

Originally Posted by jerVL/kg

Unless they changed it in Warlords, the Internet grants you all the techs IMMEDIATELY if 2 other civs know it. (In one game I beelined the 'Net and got 37 techs right off the bat...)

i loved your thread about that! questioned your sanity of course, but very much enjoyed reading about your game. that's the only time i've seen it used, and i think it would be quite interesting for S to try it out here.

good luck S!

ps to drkodos: "Going third person in posting should be relegated to the mentally insane, professional atheletes, and/or megalomaniacal Hollywood has-beens." how about a crazy in a silly way, totally hates sports, girl that grew up in north hollywood? KMad thinks that qualifies