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Old Jan 26, 2007, 02:38 PM   #21
futurehermit
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Yes, diplomacy might be an issue. Take this as an example: 3 civs on continent. Issy furthest away, founds buddhism. Freddy in the middle, no religion. You want to attack Freddy, but Issy hates you so that would mean 0 trading partners...

Of course being spiritual you can always just switch out of your state religion...
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Old Jan 26, 2007, 02:49 PM   #22
PMabey
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Can somebody explain me why so much emphasis put on starting techs? It doesnít matter if you start with hunting and mysticism as you will have to obtain them anyway, hunting for spears, in case you have bronze, and scouts for extra exploring, and is step away from archers, if in the very last case you still need to build them. Mysticism is fantastic since you need to build monuments. The trait is not wasted if you donít beeline to religion, thatís ridiculous.
Hunting and fishing require 40 beakers. The wheel and agriculture require 60 and all the rest 50. Together with the fact that with hunting you get a scout which means no worker stealing, i can understand why having hunting as a starting tech is not so great, but mysticism...Unless youre creative, which Monty obviously isnt then youre gonna need to research it pretty soon as you said, so i agree with you there.
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Old Jan 26, 2007, 03:19 PM   #23
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Huh? The scout is much better than warrior as starting unit, especially on the higher difficulty levels, because

1) it has realistic chance to pop some huts before the AIs

2) it's critical for mapping strategic resources, the ones you can claim and the ones you need to disconnect for successful rush

3) goody huts quality drops with level going up, while barbarian aggression rises; popping huts on deity with warrior may easily kill your warrior and often your entire civilization

4) stealing worker from immortal/deity AI is not really a good idea unless you are going for very early rush. At best, you will get a permanent -3 on relations with a powerful neighbor. Most of the time, you will be choked or even killed by archers
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Old Jan 26, 2007, 03:28 PM   #24
LosBlack
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so is the general consensus that founding an early religion at immortal/deity is disfavored to building monuments in each city (until some other form of culture production is available)? is this because monuments are cheap and the research is better spent elsewhere? is it really a such a gamble at higher levels?

playing on monarch, i usually consider founding budd/poly, if i'm not creative, just to pop borders without extra builds, not necessarily to convert to a state religion..
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Old Jan 26, 2007, 04:49 PM   #25
Lidjis
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I say go for the religion, you have an oasis which shaves one (two?) turns of hindusim. Even on immortal, you have a decent chance at hinduism. Founding an early religion can earn you gold (once you get the oracle's GP), and saves you hammers on monuments. Plus founding a religion fits with the game's theme. You are planning on building altars everywhere, so it would be thematic to also spread your religion of death and human sacrifice as you conquer. That could be Hinduism.
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Old Jan 26, 2007, 05:02 PM   #26
Godel
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Aelf, I have been playing in Mutineer's multi-threaded SG on Diety playing Isabella. Several players went for buddism first and got it. Mutineer said that only Isa and Asoka go for buddhism off the bat (but this was civ4 vanilla) which explained his rational for pursuing religion. Muti founded buddhism, got extra 1 happiness, converted Alexander (nearest neighbour - yikes) to buddhism to obtain a permanent ally, and got a rapid border expansion to bring in marble to chop the GL. There are lots of benefits to early religion, particular in a continents map if you can get your religion to dominate.

The only problem going for early religion is you may not get it. I'm an emperor player and I note that not many civs starting with Mysticism tend to go for a religion first up (e.g. Gandhi, Brennus, Wang, HC). Isa will - I'm not sure who else. Perhaps you have a 75% chance of founding? I'm not really sure.
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Old Jan 26, 2007, 05:07 PM   #27
acidsatyr
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The difference in starting techs is absolutely minimal, there's absolutely no difference if you start with this tech or any other. it is the last thing that will affect you in terms of starting position. That said, hunting is brilliant as it gives you the chance to build another scout, and mysticism is great since you need monuments anyway. Don't see why to complain. On the other hand, going for religion is something that can slow you down. If you get it, fine, if you don't, those turns are spent better elsewhere. It's up to you if you want to gamble. Btw, if you play your cards right, you can get Taoism.
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Old Jan 26, 2007, 07:43 PM   #28
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A few notes, I would not move on plain hill the capital if there no fresh warter source. Health become hurd to come by in some situations on Immortal.

I would go after early religion, and in Warlords your best chance is buddism.
If you have a lot of neybors your religion will have a good chance to spread.
If by some reason you draw isolates start religion is undespensable.
Yearly happiness is hurd to come by to.

Personally I would advise doing short turn sets, as on immortal impotant decisions could come very often and what we do early on pretty mach depends on that is around as.
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Old Jan 26, 2007, 07:48 PM   #29
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Additional note, UB work only for whipping buildings and does work retrospectivly.
Meaning, you can whipe a lot of buildings befor building altar and your unhappiness with shorter in half.

( that is good, as I often use whipe overflow from building to build wanders for example)

On other hand, whipping units carry standard 10 turn penalty.
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Old Jan 26, 2007, 07:56 PM   #30
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Allways forgeting saying something.

From what I can see, I am pretty mach for settling in place.
I see a lot of forest in fat cross, fresh water source, food source and one hill for shields. I do not think there will be anything better near by.
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Old Jan 26, 2007, 08:09 PM   #31
aelf
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I went to sleep after starting the thread, and when I woke up and checked it's already a war zone

I'm really inclined to try and found an early religion. I don't normally like to do so either, but with Mysticism and an oasis, it seems like the will of the gods Also, I agree that having an early religion can be a boost if it turns out that we're low on happiness resources, although I don't see how it would give us any diplomatic benefits since our neighbours would simply end up on the sacrificial altars anyway

Quote:
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Additional note, UB work only for whipping buildings and does work retrospectivly.
Meaning, you can whipe a lot of buildings befor building altar and your unhappiness with shorter in half.

( that is good, as I often use whipe overflow from building to build wanders for example)

On other hand, whipping units carry standard 10 turn penalty.
Are you sure about this? I don't see it stated anywhere, and IIRC this has been disproved before.
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Old Jan 26, 2007, 08:18 PM   #32
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That is my expirience from playing, I could be wrong and did not count properly. I played this civ only one's.
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Old Jan 26, 2007, 08:30 PM   #33
acidsatyr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutineer View Post

Personally I would advise doing short turn sets, as on immortal impotant decisions could come very often and what we do early on pretty mach depends on that is around as.
ya deffinately dont play your standard turnset , lots of things that could go wrong in short amount of time.
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Old Jan 26, 2007, 08:45 PM   #34
NaZdReG
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good luck aelf!! dont have much input as i've never played the aztecs, but I'll watch your thread with avid interest as always

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Old Jan 27, 2007, 12:54 AM   #35
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Choose carefully, aelf. This is not a mere 1 hammer vs 2 health question.

If you settle next to the oasis, the synergy effects will drag you down this road:

- found early religion

- mine the hill, chop your forests for stonehenge/oracle(CoL?)

- generate GP from wonder/temple priest

- build shrine, run priests and generate another prophet for CoL/Theology

You'll rely on whipping for settlers/workers.

Settling the hill makes you more dependable on the forests and one turn less likely to found religion. You'll whip less, hammer more. You'll probably end up:

- skipping religion

- discovering iron

- rushing early


Scenario 1 has more flavor. Scenario 2 is plain but safe.
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Old Jan 27, 2007, 03:23 AM   #36
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Unconquered Sun is a meaning essentially correct. I disagree with him about what is more relieble way.

Oasis with it 3 food 3 commerce give very high probability of discovering bddusm, I would put about 90% on it.
What I disagree is that scenario 2 is safe. Scenario one give more flexibility,
you if you need relationships, you can allways become nonreligious. But additional happiness, religious civics and other riligion options are more valible.

More happiness = more whipping = more shields.
You would not need to run more then one prophet for shrine, but opportunity to run prophet will exist.

Wanders are subject to avalible resources, thought Oracle is posible even with out Marble.
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Old Jan 27, 2007, 06:10 AM   #37
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I've been experimenting as Monty lately - though nowhere near Immortal level - and I can say his UB is fabulous when the circumstances are right.

At the risk of stating the obvious, here's what seems to work best for him:

Key techs: Farming/AH/Fishing (depending on available resources), Pottery (but NOT for cottages, only for the graneries!), IW and CoL. You'll obviously want to pick up Writing (for specialists) and BW (for Slavery) along the way, but being on the paths to aforementioned techs that's a given anyhow.
I wouldn't bother with early religions or wonders either. Only exception: if you can pull off an Oracle slingshot to CoL do so, but I wouldn't jump through hoops to get there either.

Strategy: forget cottages and mines alltogether, just farm farm farm. Go after food-rich locations first: 2 food resources or a few FP's are a minimum.
Also try to locate horses ASAP and settle near them if you can. Why horses? You'll want to rely on your UU and the best counter against the Jaguar are axemen. Hence, chariots help protect your stacks. Moroever, they make great medic units, excellent barb protection and good scout replacements once the barbs start popping up. Other strategic resources are far less important though, with the possible exception of marble for Oracle.

Get a granary, barracks and library up in your early cities soon. Then play the swapping game: alternate between growth, specialists (primarily GS) and whipping. Amass Jaguars - with an occasional chariot and perhaps a spear thrown in for good measure - along the way.
Expand through war once you're strong enough to pick on your neighbours. Play the Monty we all know and hate (or love): kill, raze, pillage and esp. be utterly relentless. The window of opportunity of the Jaguar is fairly small so you really need to push hard to make the most of them.

If possible, build (or rather, whip) a sacrificial altar FIRST in newly conquered cities, then barracks and granary (the sequence's less important there). Use those cities as advanced troop-generating hubs: they'll most likely won't produce anything worthwhile for a bit in the way of commerce/beakers anyhow. Rely on your core cities & specialists for research instead. With the altars in place maintenance shouldn't be much of an issue as well. Above all, the nifty little things allow for virtually incessant whipping!

After CoL/IW I'd recommend Construction (= catapults) and civic-enabling techs. The latter are mainly useful to optimise the grow/whip/specialist cycle.
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Old Jan 27, 2007, 11:56 AM   #38
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At least in the patched version of Warlords the Altar halves the unhappiness for both units and buildings.
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Old Jan 27, 2007, 12:32 PM   #39
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One thing that nobody has noted yet is that the tropical map, in my opinion, gives an advantage to Financial civs. Watch out, as the grassland that appears once the jungles are cut will give the fiinancial civs lots of cottages.
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Old Jan 27, 2007, 04:45 PM   #40
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Aelf dont forget your offerings to Tlacaxipehualiztli, you will need it ! Else Motecuzōma Xocoyotzin risks the wrath of the Gods !
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