SGOTM 12 - Ivan

[glenmetz]

So, is it decided, India is the target?

[AutomatedTeller]

It is, unless someone is dead set against it.

I'm playing tonight. If Aztecs demand from me my first turn and declare, I may change my mind

[I. Larkin]

Agree. If Aztecs DoW, go there.
Alliance with Japan and RoP iside MA deal. We will need RoP to protect Japan, but want any deal will be over when Aztecs will be finished.
Do not forget "Peace with Rome" anyway.
If India is a target then MA with Portugal well in advance of unload. I mean next turn...
With Maya up to you. They may help, but may interfere. 2-3 turns after?
With D bombardment 3 swords+3 AC may be enough. May be archers may help? We may do 1 per turn.
It is Brown Border: Cartage? Or what? better to return and find out.
Set IBT at big picture research path to Theology, not just Monotheism...
Research on sea, when 15 spt.

[AutomatedTeller]

I played through to 1000 BC.

High points: India is out, we have 2 more size 1 towns (feudalism is a poprush government, and they pop rushed the hell out of themselves)
Paris added *two* more wonders - Glib and lighthouse. We are getting some 34 GPT from paris - we will have to worry about Paris winning a 20K victory.
We are in our GA, 4 turns left, 9 turns left for theology.

write up:

open the save, create an embassy in lisbon for 45 Gold


Portugal is running 40% science. Lisbon has 29 (29! units in it, all but one are vets)

12 shields, making horseman.

Bring them in on against India for construction - they give us 2 gold, as well. I give them construction so they can build aqueducts for us

IBT - I watch 9 units run around in japan.

hit big picture, get...

Engineering. So, go back and start gifting scientific AI's - btw, with a lib, at 100% science, monotheism will take 35 turns.

Trades: MM and CoL to ottomans for 8 GPT
Give them Currency - they get monotheism, but won't give it for engineering. OK.

Currency to Persia for 3 gold, give them construction
They get feudalism, that is close for Engineering and lit

Gift Greece up, they get engineering - no help


Russia CoL for 4 gold, give currency. They get feudalism. now we are cooking

Trade lit and engineering to persia for feudalism,
Monotheism and Feud to ottomans for Monotheism

IBT Egypt asks us to leave.
Roman curragh attacks dromons, loses - we are in a GA
1375 - Theo in 31

we meet the celts - they are down alph, iron, HB and poly, no luxes, horses.

Upgrade our swords to MDI

IBT - Delhi starts building the GLib!!

1350 BC - land pike and AC on mountain
rome still wants poly, writing and math, so I ignore them

IBT - Paris completes the lighthouse

1325 - Workers finish clearing jungle, there is a bg under it!

1275 - we meet china and carthage - we know all civs I disband most of our curraghs to save on money

AC loses to spear
MDI loses to spear
MDI kills spear
AC kill rSpear, 2 HP spear pops up
AC kills spear

1175 IBT - Paris completes the glib.

1050 - vMDI kills spear.
vMDI redlines spear, dies
vMDI kills spear - we take delhi (now size 1)

1025
vAC kills spear

We are average compared to japan

1000 BC - trade engineering to joanie for 3 gold and 34 GPT - they will get it soon, anyway, from the GLIB


A couple of things - I probably should have waited a couple more turns before moving on delhi - I could have taken it at size 5 or 6, I think, if I had.

We can handle a huge army now and should probably take on aztecs.

I did not make peace with Rome - they were a minor irritation, but bombardment tended to keep the curraghs away.

be careful moving the garrison out of delhi/bombay - india was poprushing like mad, so we might send them into disorder.

[glenmetz]

AWESOME!!!!

Looks like Joanie wants to Wonder the world to death. Thats alright, it'll be all the more fun to capture them later. Once she gets right to about 18k culture or so.

[AutomatedTeller]

btw - we are still at war with Rome.

I am not sure what our next target should be - I am sure that what we should do, however, is drop a large stack next to whatever city we want, if possible two stacks next to both cities, so we can hopefully take them before they poprush themselves to death.


I'm trying to push france, greece adn persia (who seem to be strongest) towards invention/gunpowder.

I've also attached our new India land, with rivers and spices

Compared to various civs, we are:

Strong to portugal, Ottomans
Average to Japan
Weak to aztec, Rome, Maya


Our next target is probably either Portugal then Inca (with Mayan help), then maya. We might be able to take down aztec/japan at the same time, though that might be a little tough. We should stay away from Rome for a little while, I think...

[I. Larkin]

hit big picture, get...

Engineering. So, go back and start gifting scientific AI's - btw, with a lib, at 100% science, monotheism will take 35 turns.

Trades: MM and CoL to ottomans for 8 GPT
Give them Currency - they get monotheism, but won't give it for engineering. OK.

Currency to Persia for 3 gold, give them construction
They get feudalism, that is close for Engineering and lit

Gift Greece up, they get engineering - no help

So, did you try to mark Theolpgy at Big picture?
Did not work anyway?

[nerovats]

If we're average to Japan we should probably go there now. In my experience average means sure victory, and the Japanese land looks good, and is close. The rest of the indian island seems to consist of mostly mountains and plains accept for north. Might have time to open save later today, will have time tomorrow for sure. But this is a large step as now we got more cities then the AI, which will help to grow further. Make sure to grow the new cities asap. Did we find Paris yet, we must take care of that. Maybe it's a good idea to start chosing some friends who will elect us in the UN later.

[AutomatedTeller]

I did, yes. I have found that it is truly random which one you get. No biggie - I was able to trade for monotheism and we have a couple of civs off trying to get invention for us.

Actually, I don't remember if I did this or not, but we should probably give fuedalism to france, as well, as they are clearly the best researcher. The only worry I have is if they go up the theology/edu line with us, but I'm not really worried about that.

Joanie has something like 20 wool connected, which apparently has been modified into a luxury item, as well as a food/shield/commerce bonus. Basically, wool is a super resource... for all I know, it can be used as a source of coal, as well

We did find paris, it's a long ways away - off on the eastern edge of the map.
Japan is good, but portugal might be best, if we want to take them out anyway - they are vulnerable right now and we are right there...

My thoughts on friends for the UN are at least most of the scientific civs, since we will want them for gifting. There is something to be said about keeping japan around, interestingly:
There are two civs who have feudalism as their preferred government and japan is one of them. can't remember the other - it's not aztecs.

btw - I moved all our workers over to india, but there are a couple of tiles in constantinople that aren't mined yet, which was a mistake on my part - we are fine for the rest of the GA, but once that is over, we'll be at 27 SPT and we should be able to get to 30, I think, which will help for dromons/pikes, though not for MDI.

[I. Larkin]

Agree with nerovats. "avarage" mean fast victory without any MA.
BTW difficulty with MA that it is useless anyway. If we capture Osaka no help from Aztec. If Aztec capture Osaka, "no thanks." At F8 Rome have superpower, but until MM no danger. Portugal weak, but with poor communication war may be difficult. Who after Japan?
Aztecs?
Portugal?
Inka?
May I assume, that after my turnset we play 10-12 turns each? And stop at key moments?We will have long time researching Astronomy.
May be we will build Granary in Constantinople and ffew workers to come to India?
Another issue of current situation: We are avarage with France, and strond vs Vikings. Also trade to France is blocked somwhere. It was better to learn more about Coastal line.
Most probably they are at war with Vikings and will win soon.
We did not make contact with America, but have disbanded all curraghs.

[I. Larkin]

I played through to 1000 BC.

Well, for GA it is too much. It is unique period and all team should participate here.
It is almost over now... In avarage you spend 4 minutes for turn, turnlog miss many turns and, probably you
miss some good opportunities. I hope Nitfan will take this general things into account.

write up:

Your turns start at 1475?

IBT Egypt asks us to leave.
Roman curragh attacks dromons, loses - we are in a GA

Too early, you know... What year it have happened?
Did we loose any domons?

1375 - Theo in 31 ???

At my calculations it may 34 without GA. Did I miss something?
Or your wrong Micromanagement?

we meet the celts - they are down alph, iron, HB and poly, no luxes, horses.

Upgrade our swords to MDI

Why you did not do it at turn 1?

IBT - Delhi starts building the GLib!!

Good to wait. No poprush in Delhi

1350 BC - land pike and AC on mountain
rome still wants poly, writing and math, so I ignore them

You are right here...


1325 - Workers finish clearing jungle, there is a bg under it!

1275 - we meet china and carthage - we know all civs I disband most of our curraghs to save on money

We did not meet America yet. Anyway, better to sail home in short way to see direct line. One curragh was very close to home.
For trade (after Astronomy) we have to know map of costal line. Find Paris...

AC loses to spear
MDI loses to spear
MDI kills spear
AC kill rSpear, 2 HP spear pops up
AC kills spear

Why no bombardment? 3 dormons is a big force…
I think it was resnable to stop and discuss what to do next.

It is perfectly OK to stop IBT turnset, put Save and Pictures at our thread and ask for advise.

At SGTOM 11 I did it many times and we discussed few days key moments.
1175 IBT - Paris completes the glib.

What else have happend? What was troops motion?

1050 - vMDI kills spear.
vMDI redlines spear, dies
vMDI kills spear - we take delhi (now size 1)

1025
vAC kills spear

We are average compared to japan

You take Bombay here?

1000 BC - trade engineering to joanie for 3 gold and 34 GPT - they will get it soon, anyway, from the GLIB

Not sure, when they contact Persia, but good move anyway.

A couple of things - I probably should have waited a couple more turns before moving on delhi - I could have taken it at size 5 or 6, I think, if I had.

Yes, and Maya could help. And bombard also give information how many units inside.

We can handle a huge army now and should probably take on aztecs.

I did not make peace with Rome - they were a minor irritation, but bombardment tended to keep the curraghs away.

be careful moving the garrison out of delhi/bombay - india was poprushing like mad, so we might send them into disorder.

We are week vs Aztecs, and Japan help may not be efficient. Japan is obvious next target.

[AutomatedTeller]

My apologies for not meeting america - I miscounted when I looked at the civs I had met. There isn't really an excuse for that.

The turns where nothing showed up, nothing happened - I was moving wounded AC and MDI to heal and building up forces for the final assault.

We lost no ships to roman curraghs.

I micromanaged for production in the GA - when we could get 40 SPT, I built MDI, when we couldn't, we had 30 SPT and more gold.

[I. Larkin]

What turns you produce Dormons, how the sails, bombard?
It was brown Border, East of Babs. I thought it is Cartage...

[I. Larkin]

Originally Posted by nerovats

If we're average to Japan we should probably go there now. In my experience average means sure victory, and the Japanese land looks good, and is close. The rest of the indian island seems to consist of mostly mountains and plains accept for north. Might have time to open save later today, will have time tomorrow for sure. But this is a large step as now we got more cities then the AI, which will help to grow further. Make sure to grow the new cities asap. Did we find Paris yet, we must take care of that. Maybe it's a good idea to start chosing some friends who will elect us in the UN later.

I will play today and continue tomorow. If nobody generate bright Idea I will go for Japan.
As I wrote earlear, we have to manage to reduce many weak civs to 4-5 strong ones, who may help with research and development. It is prime task for close future. France is a good candidate for "World leader", but 20 and 100 K... I think with spear cash I'll make embassy at Paris.

[nerovats]

Opend save so here my thoughts:

We're currently stong compared to Portugese. We got some units there and Portugese territory looks resonably good. We will get some extra lux to trade as well. Why not take them first, then move to Japan and Aztecs, we need that island for productivity and the commerce of the Aztec capitol.

As said before MM the new cities for growth, the should be growing faster, connect lux and get some irrigation around Bombay.

For friends I like the idea of keeping the scientific civs in the game. That will let us clear the rest of the former indian island except for the Ottomans, which are convinently on the far side (altough they are likely gona get killed by inca). We can take Japan and Aztecs and Egypt (gems) on the short term, other luxes are further away. Maybe we need some more friends, maybe some civs not worth taking. We'll need a better world map to decide on that.

We could even kill someone like Spain then give the cities to Korea as we won't get any commerce from it accept for scientists, maybe Spain can do more for us that way. Just a thought for now but might be worth thinking it over.

Where is France? I don't seem to be able to spot them. They can do lot of research for us, but we must make sure to kill them in time.

Agree with playing fewer turns from now. Especially during war. During buildup (like next couple of turns) we could play bit more, but no more then like 15.

I think we should start to gift our friends into the MA (getting as much cash as possible of cource), for example Korea is way back as a scientific civ we need them to get strong. Now they are no use at all.

If we keep strait line in science the ai can fill in the gaps and optionals. If we can get some more cities soon, before astronomy that is we can get the scientific wonders as well. I don't think I support going all the way to Shakespear, as it is a mayor detour, just to get 1 city bigger. Better to get to IA asap and hope for Newton and Copernicus.

[AutomatedTeller]

The notes I have are posted. Frankly, looking back, I'm not very happy with the turnset, if for no other reason than I didnt' note everything I did for no reason I can think of. I apologize for not getting more thoughts from the team on what to do during the GA. I do believe we have learned an important lesson, though - we need to hit each city with overwhelming force and take it early, or they will pop rush themselves to death.

I'm not sure I'll be able to continue with this - real life is hectic - though it may clear up by the time my turn set comes around. if it is still this hectic, I'll pass my turn rather than play it sloppily.

[nerovats]

If there's nothing to write as nothing really happend that's ok with me but the next player should get a feel for what has been going on. I'd don't like it when people write to much especially when using lot of words without saying to much as I'm as slow reader, especially in a forreign language.

Wouldn't to miss you in this game. Hope you can at least find the time to think with us.

[I. Larkin]

AT, hope you will have a chance to have a look at future save and make brief remarks.
Your skills for analisys is the best in our team and "extended summaries" was very helpful.
About turnlog write up I think some table with turns number and years may help to estimate length of "nothing happening". So, if you will have time and remember what have happend edit your post with turnlog.
Also, hope, RL issue will be sort out somehow before your turns. We may skip, swap or just play 4-5 turns.

[I. Larkin]

Originally Posted by nerovats

Opend save so here my thoughts:

We're currently stong compared to Portugese. We got some units there and Portugese territory looks resonably good. We will get some extra lux to trade as well. Why not take them first, then move to Japan and Aztecs, we need that island for productivity and the commerce of the Aztec capitol..

Unfortunately this two thinks contrudicts each other. It is wery difficult to improve land and cut forest while to be in war with Portugal. They have no Iron and go nowhere. Also, they will be corrupt. If we will not go to Japan first Aztec may kill them. So Japan is a target I chose and I think I'll finish them in 8-10 turns. Who is the next to be killed? The real worry is Inka. Rough terrain, Iron. Probably Maya may help.

Originally Posted by nerovats

As said before MM the new cities for growth, the should be growing faster, connect lux and get some irrigation around Bombay.

I think we may also bring and settle workers from home to India.

Originally Posted by nerovats

For friends I like the idea of keeping the scientific civs in the game. That will let us clear the rest of the former indian island except for the Ottomans, which are convinently on the far side (altough they are likely gona get killed by inca). We can take Japan and Aztecs and Egypt (gems) on the short term, other luxes are further away. Maybe we need some more friends, maybe some civs not worth taking. We'll need a better world map to decide on that.

Agree about preliminary plan. Where you thnk to have FP?

Originally Posted by nerovats

We could even kill someone like Spain then give the cities to Korea as we won't get any commerce from it accept for scientists, maybe Spain can do more for us that way. Just a thought for now but might be worth thinking it over.
I think we should start to gift our friends into the MA (getting as much cash as possible of cource), for example Korea is way back as a scientific civ we need them to get strong. Now they are no use at all.

Well, I am affraid, that it is "not enough. " For example make Korea effective it needs 8-10 Cities. So "Spain and Portugal" for Korea. And may be something else may help. Also Arab, Irokez for Grees, Cartage and China Russia for.
The reason I think this way that AI research "much faster" as 5/3, so theoretially better to give good Cities with aqueducts to Scintific civs.
Alternative way that we ignore weak and useless AI, grab as much land as possible and research all ourself. Question is how fast we get in 4 turn rate.

Originally Posted by nerovats

Where is France? I don't seem to be able to spot them. They can do lot of research for us, but we must make sure to kill them in time.

Are yuo sure? Now they pay 32 gpt and I belive the similar things will be in a future. I think if we loose 20 or 100 K we loose anyway.
I have 3 laures, but no wooden spoon in my collection. Anyway, France somwhere at the East end of big "continent", this end not far from West Spain.

Originally Posted by nerovats

Agree with playing fewer turns from now. Especially during war. During buildup (like next couple of turns) we could play bit more, but no more then like 15.

Well, I think that I will combine buildup and military phase. I hate, when Army stay with no use. As team captain I have privilege for first 20. So it will be last 20 turset. And next will be 10-15, or even shorter.

Originally Posted by nerovats

If we keep strait line in science the ai can fill in the gaps and optionals. If we can get some more cities soon, before astronomy that is we can get the scientific wonders as well. I don't think I support going all the way to Shakespear, as it is a mayor detour, just to get 1 city bigger. Better to get to IA asap and hope for Newton and Copernicus.

If things will continue as it is there is no way, but get Copernicus. And no risk, I belive. Shekspere looks a bit rediculos (never build it before), but if to look pragmatically Capital with Copernicus and Newton produce half total bpt. Edit: and Shecsp also help. Optional tech may help to trade IBT MA and IA and get second or even third level tech in IA. But let's see.

[nerovats]

Shake's was mentioned by someone, but am glad to see you don't agree as well. We won't get wooden spoon that's for sure, but would like to aim for gold. Paris won't be a problem yet but it will be around 1400-1500AD? 100K is no problem as we will have the largest empire by far. This is just standard size so 4 turn science should be achieve relativle easy, civassist will tell how much commerce is needed, haven't looked that far into the future yet. It will help to get 2 or 3 strong researching AI, 2 or 3 will be enough as we will get 1 line for our selves.

I understand we can't go after both Portugal and Japan, but most of our army is near Portugal, and we're strong so just our army on the Portugese army will be at least average, thus enough to win (but would send another ship over ofcourse). We should be able to win that war in a couple of turns, then move back to Japan, closely followed by Aztecs as then we will hve 7 cities thus lot of unit support. Also the aztecs wil have lot's of units but mostly warriors. Wre need their 6? elephant capitol. The Portugese cities won't be productive but can grow for science farms and will help a bit with unit support.

I alo checked embassy price with Paris it's just 98 gold, seems like good investment to me.

I also never build shake except for 20K.