Specialist Economy with Gandhi

[Saketh]

I've been trying to assimilate various strategies in order to find the one that fits my playing style, and my latest is the Specialist Economy. Unfortunately, I'm failing miserably.

From what I hear, the rundown is that I make a capital focused on commerce with Bureaucracy, eventually Free Speech. Then I make food cities focused on GP and Scientist specialists to supplant my research bar, which eventually goes down to zero.

Here's how I do it (with Gandhi, for Spiritual and Philosophical traits):

• In my capital, I build only cottages, with a farm for the occasional resource (such as wheat). I put the city to be focused on Commerce. The capital also ends up becoming my military production center.
• In the surrounding cities, I build nothing but farms. I put the city to be focused on Food and Great People.

Here are my issues:

• City placement - I'm really bad at finding good locations for GP/Scientist research cities.
• Military production - How does war fit in to the SE strategy?
• Cities - How many should I make, what should I make each one do, etc.
• Goals - What is the end goal for the SE strategy?
• Research - Approximately when am I supposed to cut the research bar to zero?

If someone could help me out with this strategy, I would be grateful.

P.S. I've read the guides to this strategy, but they're not explaining certain aspects that confuse me.

Thanks in advance.

[KMadCandy]

i don't know what difficulty you're used to playing at, and my advice may be something you've already thought of. i do this sort of thing all the time to learn radically new strategies but i've found that it doesn't occur to some people.

i'd never done an SE focus until i got involved in hall of fame. reading about g-minor 12 was fascinating to me, all the theorizing on milking scores--the game was chieftain difficulty/huge map/marathon and you had to win by time but leave all victory conditions turned on. the winner by a mile did full SE and i wanted to try it out for myself. i never had, except GA farms in cultural games.

like you, i read the guides but they never quite click for me til i try the stuff out for myself. so i set up a game purely to play around with SE and learn by doing. i played on settler (my aim wasn't challenge, it was education), on great plains on the eastern side (i knew i'd find a lot of food bonuses there). i learned a ton doing that. much of what i learned applies to my real games (tracking GPP points in various cities and sometimes slowing one down and speeding up another to optimize things, how to best combine wonders/types of specialists and optimize the rate of which type of GP i got when, so on and so forth, how to best use the GPs, the best civics and when to change, blah blah). some of what i learned in that artifical set up doesn't apply of course ... GPs won't lightbulb nearly as much of a tech on high levels (stingy bastages), i hadn't had to worry about military at all (i'd even handpicked opponents) so i had to learn that side in a real game, things like that. but it made learning those other things easier in real games since i wasn't overwhelmed by trying to learn ALL that new stuff at once.

so, maybe play a game on GP, using an east side start, and pick the level appropriate for you (i prefer to go lower, in this case WAY lower, than my usual if i'm completely changing a style or tactic, you might want to play your usual, whatever more fits your style). that way you'd not have to focus on the city placement part, and can concentrate on the other things you want to improve. then later in real games, refining city placement will be easier since you can focus on it, having already improved your play in the other respects.

oh one other thing, running through all your cities to babysit their specialists when they grow can be ultra-annoying. i use the HoF mod, the part of it applicable here is based on modified special domestic advisor. note that i haven't tried the stand-alone version in the 2nd link so can't verify that it works. it gives you several tabs in F1, including one that shows you what specialists each city is running, which is a lovely thing.

i type a lot and didn't answer any of your specific questions, sorry. but hopefully some of this rambling might help you or somebody someday.

[§L¥ Gµ¥]

Ok, I'll try to help you out the best I can, given I've just learned a fair bit about this strategy myself and have become somewhat proficient at setting it up.

The first thing is that food is your science. The more food a city can pull in, the higher the population, the bigger the science output. Seems a little basic, but it's the truth. Keeping in mind these science cities must still build some science infrastructure, you are going to need at least some production instead of having to wait 50 turns for your 8th university to build before you wait an additional 100 for oxford to complete. Unless of course you want to run slavery and whip those things into place. Types of terrain I look for are obviously floodplains and health bonuses. Ideally, before planting one of these cities, I look at a tentitive spot and count how much food under optimum circumstances I can pull in. Knowing that it'll take an additional 2 food per specialist, I'm looking for somewhere near 10 extra food per science city [pre biology]. Food bonuses are great, because working one of those tiles can yield a ton of food for a single working citizen and can support those scientists while not completely slowing down growth.

Military Production : Well as I'm sure you're aware, dedicated military cities work best. SE works with the warmonger because it allows for higher culture rates allowing more happiness in cities to combat war weariness. In addition, the fact that your science isn't tied to easily and lucratively pillageable cottages, you are harder to take down over the long term that way. On the flipside, knowing the terrain and makeup of a city you're attacking, you can be free to rape and pillage the suburbs of enemy cities, knowing you're going to farm them afterward, if that city is one you deem fit for that purpose of course. There also is the large surplus of cash you can end up running due to the fact your science slider is set to 0. This will allow for previously troublesome and expensive military upgrades to be completed without having to turn off your science for a couple turns, allowing you to get those city raider riflemen that can dominate the mid-game. As for the number of production military cities, I usually have one extremely strong one going from at least my second city, usually adding a second, third and possibly fourth based on circumstance throughout the game. The general rule of thumb for me, is I never want to set my economy to total war [every city building units], so if I can't outpace my enemy with the number of military cities I've got, then I need one more.

The number of science cities you should have grows as the game goes on, but is still highly dependant on the game you play. I usually play on large worlds, one good science city will keep me going until I get thru all the necessary technologies to set up the SE [CoL, Drama etc], but I want a second one ASAP after that, or if I can, about that time or slightly before. By that time I should have th great library, meaning my first science city should have the national epic, GL, a library, and maybe 5 or 6 additional specialists, hopefully running under representation, while a second science city will have maybe a basic 4-5 specialists running with a library. Normally, by this time if I were you as Ghandi, I'd be running pacifism, caste system, representation, and generally pumping out GS's at a rediculous clip of 1 in under 10 turns each. If you aren't familiar with the Metal Casting slingshot to build the pyramids, I'd recommend reading articles about that as well. At this time the SE is far and away in it's golden age, you should be slaughtering people in tech, and if you use your GSs wisely, you'll never be beaten to liberalism. Use your tech lead to gain new science cities, a couple civ's capitals usually work out pretty well. Make sure, your cities are always growing. Like the time it takes for a cottage to mature, you want additional specialists to be added to each science city. If that means going out and securing more health bonuses, do it. If it means pulling one specialist to work an extra farm, do it, because once you reach that cap, the city is going to lose ground to the CE.

Another key point of the SE is that you still need cottage cities. Not many, but you do need some commerce to support your empire, the beaurocracy in a cottaged capital is always a good idea, but you mentioned that you usually make your capital a cottaged city outright. I would rethink that idea. I have come across less than ideal starts where my capital is much better suited to a military city or a science/gp farm. If that is indeed the case, it may be a better idea to build a cottage city elsewhere and move your capital there to maximize that +50% commerce without sacrificing that 1turn/1unit ratio you could get in your original capital city's location. I usually only build one commerce city, tho, as usually if I find myself running into economic trouble I can go to war, capture a cottaged city or two and fix myself up instead of waiting for cottages to mature. [ok, so I lied, you may not want to pillage ALL the cottages]

The ultimate goal of the SE economy? To win of course, but given the fact the SE works well with warring, it's usually domination wins you're looking at. Keeping in mind that the SE can't beat out the CE in the late game, hopefully by the time you reach the late game you're empire is big enough to offset any glaring inefficiencies of the economy. As a result, if you find yourself unable to rout the computer to the point of a domination win, hopefully the empire is so bloated that you'll still be able to outtech the other civs.

As for cutting th research bar to 0? Generally I cut it out when there's really only about 3 turns difference between discovering a tech with and without. That usually happens for me near the end of the ancient, somewhere around the time of the GL. And as a corollary to that, I'll start adjusting my culture slider when my cities start reaching the happiness limit. Keep em growing.

Anyway, hope some of this helps.

[druidravi]

You do not need cottages in your capital. Your capital should have the biggest production in early game so better use it as a production powerhouse. Your money could come later from cottageswhich already have grown a bit in cities you capture . All your first 2 to 3 cities can be good production cities which can also run specialists once in a while.

As for research slider I personally use reasearch slider at the highest point for a long time with captured cities and trading gold funding deificient research . Its only when I adopt representation in a large empire that I drop it down to 0.

Bascially cottages or inefficient till Emancipation due to the time they require to grow. So I have an arrangement with AI , I let them build cottages in early game and grow them up a bit when cottages are weak then I capture their cities and work matured cottages when cottages are strong .

[30+]

I've never tried a SE/FE on any level other than Emperor so my preferences when using this style of play are geared toward that level .

City placement: 1st city- settle near horse/copper. 2nd city- settle near land which has most food available to be worked. 3rd city- take from AI. 4th city- take from AI. 5th city- take from AI......etc.

Military Production: War is huge in SE/FE. I'd go as far to say if you're a builder then SE/FE will be more difficult for you to maximize it (at least at higher levels). Why??? In SE/FE we are focusing predominently on Farms/Food/Whip/Specialist. This leaves very little room for cottages because they take up farm space. You have to go to war, and do it early, in order to grab the necessary land and cities, and....., the all important cash you get from capturing and razing enemy cities. I would make 2 of your 3 cities production cities and the remainder a specialist city.

Cities: I wouldn't make more than 2 new cities for a total of 3 yourself. I suggest 2 production cities and 1 specialist city. After you capture your first AI city you need to determine the strength of the other cities you plan to attack/raze. I normally have 2 production cities and 3 specialist cities (after I capture my 2nd AI city). Personally, I don't like to have more than 5 total cities before I hit CS and can run beauracracy because city maintenance is so high.

Goal: My personal goal is to tech to Liberalism as fast as humanly possible (this means you MUST LIGHTBULB TECHS), WHILE, conquering enough cities to support your empire on the way and especially once you hit liberalism. There is no point in getting to Liberalism in 400-600 AD if I don't have a strong enough empire to leverage my tech lead. By leverage I am talking about crushing AI's with my superior units I will have.

Research: When to put slider to 0%? Before Liberalism the only time my slider is lower than 100% is when I can't afford it that high. Immediately before war My unit cost is insane, therefore I am usually almost broke, therefore I HAVE to run research at 0-30% (usually). Other than that, keep your research as HIGH as possible untill you research Liberalism (my preference). If you have 0% slider before Liberalism you will not be researching COL, CS (especially) fast enough.

To sum up: Make few cities yourself. Get land by conquering it, and early. Get money by razing cities and tech trading (AN ABSOLUTE MUST) or you will go broke. Hit Liberalism super fast so you can use your tech advantage to War with superior units and sell top notch techs such as PHIL/COL/CS/Pap/ED.

I typically hit Liberalism in 400-500ish AD and my research path with Ghandi usually goes:

Agriculture/BW/AH/Wheel/Writing/Alphabet/Drama/Literature/COL/CS. I do not research pottery on the way to writing because it takes too much time (7-9 turns x 40 years is approximately 300 years extra!!) and delays Liberalism. I will simply trade for it. I research drama before literature because the AI won't trade me polytheism yet, which I need for literature. Once again, that waste time. While researching Drama I can normally pick up IW/Mathmatics which are important ones. And once again, right before drama is finished I can usually get polytheism (Literature Prerequisite) and meditation (necessary to Bulb Philosophy) and priesthood (need so I CAN research COL). After drama I then research Literature directly (begin the GL) and then start COL. The AI won't be ready to trade me Monarchy and Currency until very shortly before or after I finish COL. Whenever I decide I need the extra cash sooner than later for tech trading and research currency myself, the AI decides to trade it to me when I have 1-3 turns left on it (go figure). For that reason I normally think it is saves you research time in the long run to get COL started asap. When I do get Monarchy + some little tech and currency from the AI I always trade literature and or drama to get em' .

[futurehermit]

^^@30+ you've described the basic way i try to play. however, my problem is incorporating warfare into this scenario.

can you describe how/when you mass units and go to war. how many do you build and if you build a lot and your research slider starts to drop (due to unit cost) how do you keep your tech up to research drama + lit fast enough to get the GL (do you get the GL?).

also, if you have copper and a neighbour right next door i understand how going to war will fund your research. but what happens when you don't have a neighbour next door or you don't have copper? what then? these are the things that i'm currently struggling with on emperor. thks in adv...

[darrelljs]

I can't really tell what you might be doing wrong because there is one fundamental point missing...are you settling the scientiest or lightbulbing for tradeable techs? I think Spiritual/Philosophical is a great combination, but unless you get Stone nearby to cheapen the cost of the Pyramids, you are probably better off lightbulbing early on then settling. A couple of other points others might have already addressed (sorry I didn't read any of the other replies):

1. There is no need to build cottages in the capital. If it makes sense, then sure go ahead and do it but then it is more of a hybrid economy. You still get a production boost form Bureaucracy but it becomes a less critical tech (chaining irrigation is probably just as important).

2. For production, you generally get it from slavery, although a city with a lot of hills should work Mines instead.

3. Military comes from whipping and later from drafting. One common trick is to put the Globe in a city with 3+ food resources and then draft a unit every turn.

4. City placement is not really that much different. In the early game you want to work special resources, and you want to make sure that any city has enough food to grow rapidly.

5. I would say the best part of an SE/FE is that it gives you an edge early in both production and technology (especially if you are lightbulbing) and to parley that edge into victory you are best off acquiring land from your neighbors, without delay.

Darrell

[30+]

If you tell me how to upload screen shots future... I'll give you a basic run down with pictures of what I try to do.

[Saketh]

Wow! Thanks for all of the help -- I'm starting to understand what I need to do.

I normally play on Noble (however, I am yet to win with Domination), so I'll take it down a notch to Warlord and try out a game. I'll post the game once I've tried it.

[InvisibleStalke]

Ghandi is your ultimate SE monster. Spiritual and Philosophical are both perfect for this.

Your capital should run max food and as many specialists as you can handle. Usually its more food rich than most cities you are conquering. Don't run cottages - everyone above is correct. You won't get the benefits of bureaucracy for a long time and you will have generated fewer great people and generated them later instead.

You do want a good cottage city at some point, but this can be your fourth or fifth city. Ideally it should be somewhere central (if you are coastal then further inland) and you may want to build a palace there to move your capital as you get to bureaucracy. Or you may forgo the commerce benefits of bureaucracy to keep the production benefits in your existing capital. Either works.

Second and third cities should capture strategic resources and be production cities. If you can capture stone then the pyramids are definitely worthwhile. And you want copper/iron/horses to launch your attacks. Since they are production cities and you are going to use slavery, the next priority for these cities is siting them where as well as the strategic resource they can get good food. Your early armies will be whipped.

Your priority techs are the ones that allow civics switches. Theocracy, Philosophy especially should be targeted and lightbulbed with a specialist. With Spiritual you should be planning on switching your civics every 5 turns. Something like:

Turn 1-5 - run slavery + org religion/theocracy (depending on whether you are whipping units or buildings). This will reduce the number of specialists you run so cities that aren't going to whip will be recovering their pop by working farms or building with mines.
Turn 6-10 - run caste system + pacifism (+representation if you have the pyramids). Max specialists in all cities except those that have a lot of growing to do.
Turn 11 - switch back. Now the slavery unhappy is gone. Rinse and repeat.

You will generate awesome numbers of great people this way - some to lightbulb and the rest to settle. Your cities probably won't get huge quickly - what you want is a lot of them with lots of food, each running scientists during the caste system cycle and whipping troops during the slavery cycle. Which lets you keep taking lots more cities.

[Saketh]

I tried the strategy on Warlord, but ended up in this sad situation. I think because I didn't have Iron for a while, I lost momentum.

See the attached game for details.

[30+]

@Future......

Here is a walk through of a game I started yesterday just for you


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Settings.

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Starting position. Popped a scout! I want to show that you don't HAVE to have lots of money to get the SE/FE started so, in good faith, I won't mine either one of those gold mines in vision. Begin Worker/Warrior/Settler/Worker/Warrior/Settler/Worker

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Tech path.

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Begin pre-chopping for Library.

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2 scientist started in 1840 BC. My preference lately has been to share one of my high food resources from my Capital with my first scientist city. This allows faster research and quick GS'tist. If horse/copper is too far away and I don't believe will settle the land before an AI, then I will make the city you see here my 3rd. I do prefer lately to make it first though. There was bronze in capital and horse near by.

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Tech path. As I said in earlier post, I prefer to research drama before literature, therefore giving the AI's enough time to tech trade me Poly/Meditation/Priesthood/Mathmatics/IW. In this game I was able to trade for all the little techs and the above ones with the exception of sailing.

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Chopping in library in 3rd city. I did hook up the gold for the happiness, but its out of BFC so no worries, not bringing in gold from it! I popped a 2nd copper on an already mined hill.

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1st GS in at 1480 BC. I settle him in Dehli.

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Dehli city screen. I swap my tiles around so I have exactly 12H for Axeman in 3 turns each. I will make axeman non stop and chop some later for my first war. No need to have 2 production cities if I can make Axe in 3 turns or Charriots in 2 turns. Notice also, the whole point of changing tiles to get 12H was so I could get extra 2 commerce from river tiles, which once I get Alphabet and pottery, will become cottages. If I didnt have copper I would make Charriots instead. If a good production city such as this one, I would have 13H a turn and could actually go to war SOONER due to charriots costing 2 turns. Yes, you need more of them, but, 11 Axe x 3 turn is 33 turns. 15 Charriots x 2 turns is 30 turns. But you don't always need that many do you ^^. If you don't have a strong production city then do this- A 9H city will make 8 Axe in 32 turns. This means you need to make 3 more Axes from one other city to equal the production you need from a Single Super city, thus giving you 11 Axe in 33 turns. This hurts research but you have to do what you have to do. If you don't have a neighbor next door still go to war. We talked about this in a thread before I believe. You will need money from somewhere to fund research early. So with far neighbors you would make fewer Axes or charriots because it cost much more for maintenance the further you go. You would simply Raze any cities and take the Cash. It doesn't have to be a capital if its too strong. Raze 2-3 smaller cities which will still provide cash and pillage anything and everything in sight for more money which can make up for the extra money lost in not getting a capital. This means you would need to make 2 more cities yourself. You would need to time the making of the cities to coincide with the razing of cities so you could fund them as you began to set them up for scientist/cottage/etc. This gives you 2 choices. Make 2 settlers from Capital and delay GL for 10-12 turns, or, chop them out from your other 2 cities (my choice).

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Alphabet is in. Slider is at 40% simply to save money 1 turn before the tech was finished. I believe it was at 60 or 70% before 1 turn left.

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2nd city screen. Once again, tile swap the extra citizen on the river commerce tile which has had a cottage added. The same has already been done in capital and city #3. Slider is at 60%, and remember, we are getting more and more axeman adding up, so things are doing ok.

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2nd GS is in. He will pop Philosophy.

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Hannibals capital. I decide I want 11 Axeman when I attack. This should leave me enough left over to take out 2 more cities fast.

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Philosophy is finished. Slider is at 50% and we will go to war soon.

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Literature is finished. Once again, slider is set lower only to save money 1 turn before the tech completed. I am 2nd to last in power scale at 454 Sharpie. I stopped making Axeman about 5 turns before Literature was finished. I started a Library and begun to pre chop all forest for the GL and National Epic.

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Tech path. Things are going smooth. I have been able to trade for all the needed prerequisites so I can directly research the next level tech. I have not been able to get currency though. That's always the tough one.

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I take Hannibals capital. I attacked with 11 Axe and have 6 left. He had 4 Archers with 50% defense and 2 city defense promo's 1.

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I take my 2nd AI city. I have 2 Axeman left. Money is OK, but without currency, I am unable to sell techs for cash. I need to raze a city for a few more $$. I only like to have 5 total cities before CS otherwise city maintenance kills research.

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And there is the target. I have decided to put in theatres in the new captured cities over libraries because they have +3 culture over +2, and, because I plan to do more whipping sooner over later for new structures. Need all tiles working for that so dont need libraries for scientist right now. Also, I will eventually use the culture slider when I begin whipping units back to back to back later on to negate whipping penalty. I am chopping Library in capital still, and I am making archers in my other cities. I find it important to keep your border cities with at least 3 - 4 defenders for a Show of Force so the AI doesn't invade you .

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GL is finished and COL is almost done. Still no currency. Slider is at 50%. Not sure why . Maybe I was saving money till I got currency or I just forgot.

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I get peace, money, and Monarchy (from Hannibal!).

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COL is finished and CS begun. Slider is at 90% and I am at a hefty negative $$. I finally got currency for literature and drama. Things looking ok again.

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Change civics to include getting Taoism and Pacifism. Some dont like to do it because they feel you will get attacked immediately. That's why the archers were being built earlier. Maintain enough raw power in score to avoid being attacked while beelining for faster possible time to Liberalism!! Besides, my SE/FE revolves alot around specific timing of GS and if I don't adpot pacifism I won't be able to have 3 GS waiting for me once CS is finished (which I need for Paper/Education).

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3rd GS is born which wil be saved for lightbulbing as mentioned above. Also you can see the civics being implemented. I have enough food in Capital to run 5 scientist with an 8 population. That will give me almost 100 GPP a turn. We need 400 for 4th GS and 500 for 5th. We have 13 turns till CS is complete and around 4-5 turn before Dehli hits size 8. Timing should be good.

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Foreign advisor. ACK! Lol. Everyone hates us. I will have to give techs away such as alphabet/literature/drama to improve things.

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3 turns till CS is finished. Slider @ 100% and Neg 40 +. Need to sell techs asap. You can see that next GS is due in 2 turns at 399/500. I am getting 96 GPP/turn. I already got my 4th GS (forgot picture). That means we will have 3 GS to pop Paper/Education as soon as CS is finished. We just make sure we get more $$$ from tech trading so we can keep research as high as possible for Liberalism.

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Picture of empire. Nothing grand, but I have focused on GPP and lightbulbing to get to Liberalsim fast.

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Foreign advisor. I have improved relations by gifting little techs.

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CS if complete at 1 AD. I sold COL + drama to get some money which is good, BUT, it takes a while to research Liberalism so I will need some more very soon. I am in the middle of the pack Power wise at 771.

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Chinese just declared WAR on me. I am offering Ottoman empire to start a war with Chinese. If this doesn't work it could screw me badly.

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Mehemmed answer.

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Liberalism is complete. I had to trade techs like drama and COL for horrible horrible cash. I am talking like 80 for drama and 120 for COL. I wasn't able to keep research up to 100% full time. I believe slider was a 20% for last 4-5 turns. Time to Liberalsim is very respectable considering research wasn't 100% and, at the very beginning of game, I promised not to mine the gold hills, which I didn't. If I had done so, I believe 100-175 AD Liberalism would be hit.

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Civics change. I begin whipping all courthouses/granaries(new cities)/aqueducts, barracks. After infrastructure is up I will begin whipping musketmen.

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Foreign Advisor. The war with China is still own but the Ottomans must be taking it to him because I am only being attacked by 1's and 2's. One sword, one horse archer, occasionally a swordsman and horse archer together. Anyways, the war is getting my units good experience points and hasn't effected me more than having to rebuild a stable and farm once.

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Largest civilizations in the World pop up. Also, if you look above the pop up and the the top right of it, you will see musketmen. I also have a sizeable stack of Musketman right underneath the pop up. My Capital is running beaurracracy/military academy/heroic epic and is making musketmen every turn. I just recently had my culture slider at 20% while whipping an insane amount. I was back to back to back to back whipping in every city except maybe the 1st turn every once in a while to avoid production penalty associated with whipping something w/out hammers accumulated on it. With theatres in the cities I had an additional +4 happiness. This allowed me in about 7 turns to produce 12 musketmen or so. If I had bigger population cities I could have drafted them faster!

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Time to bring the war to Mao. I switched tiles in capital to generate more $$ to help support war. Still getting Muskets in 2 turns.

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I have captured my 2nd Chinese city. See that screen shot. Musketman has destroyed a spearman! A spearmen. That's funny. One city had 2 Long bow and one spearman. The other city had 3 Long bow and one spearman. I think I will take alot of his cities . I am second in power now.

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AI tech status as of 800 AD

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AI tech status as of 1050 AD

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I am now 1st in power. I made peace with Mao. I took 5 of his cities. All being 10 population or higher. I now have 10 cities. I switched to Represention as soon as it became available. I won't continue the game as I only did this for Future ^^. So much love, lol. If i did, I would switch to caste system and run scientist from all the cities I have been farming like mad with chain irrigation. Only a few of the Captured AI cities with cottages will not be running scientist. All the cities I have captured but one are still in Anarchy for 4-8 turn still. I would run Caste for about 7-8 turns then switch back to Slavery to whip in needed courthouses etc. Once infrastructure was back up I would culture slider whip whip whip so that I had like 5-7 happiness penalty per city but wasnt effected by it cause culture slider. That means I could potentially whip 24-32 units in 8-11 turns(which could be much much faster if I had more population, + I am still feeling effects of unhappiness due to 1st whip session). I would then keep culture slider up while rallying my new men to Ottoman borders and once happiness was back to normal (alot faster due to Ghandi's UB too) I would Switch back to Caste and go all research while pounding Ottomans into the dust!

All further GS would be mostly settled in whichever city had the highest cottage potential. This would be an AI city (already cottaged) somewhere near the middle of my empire ideally. I would run Beaurracracy when I could and make Oxford there as well (and new capital). I would add necessary cottages to fill up BFC. I would continue the same cycle of Whip infrastructure/Caste research/War etc etc.

Anyways, I am still new. There are plenty of times I don't balance my power in relations to AI before Liberalism and get attacked and owned. But I am getting better with SE/FE. Not anywhere there yet. I still have problems getting into the industrial age just because I normally never finish a game, lol. I try new starts and ideas and usually that takes me up to the point I finished at in this game .

anyways. Night.

[futurehermit]

^^^SWEET, thanks

[30+]

I made an edit to the .8JPG comments. Not sure when you read it. I tried to answer more question you had about how/when/where/why.

[futurehermit]

Couple of things:

1st of all, nice play overall. This should help me.

Do you think that no barbs and pangaea map helps make things a lot easier? No barbs obviously you can make your early cities without any worry. Pangaea = more trading partners (although more possibility of getting declared on...).

My struggles usually come when I'm on a continent with only 2 other civs. You attack one and then you only have 1 trading partner...?

[30+]

In the game I played here I would say No to the Barbs question. When you make your first warrior you simply escort your first settler, found new city, then move warrior back to capital. Repeat the process with founding your 2nd city. Also, the game here I had Carthage close to my left, Ottomans above him, Isabella close right, and China close below. There would be virtually no space left for barbs to spawn in. I find in lots of my games AI settle rapidly therefore making it very very easy to handle barbs if I do have the setting on. This allows me to get one warrior early on top of a forest hill and get level 4 experience super fast, which of course translates in a HUGE production boost with a very early heroic epic.

On the flip side of things, if you were in a more isolated position, then it would be more difficult. You would need to make 4-6 warriors to have good fog busters. This WOULDN'T delay your libraries. You would still chop them in and start scientist. Just make 2-3 warrior in capital and 1 each in new cities. The only delay would be a 6 turn delay in your first war (time to make 3 warriors in capital).

On the bright side you also have the opportunity to capture/raze Barb cities as well. That could be a huge ADVANTAGE because you don't get negative diplomacy points for attacking barbs, and of course, the more cities you can raze the more Cash you will have to support research.

Lately I run 50% of my games with Barbs and 50% without. I'm still undecided which benefits/hurts you most as there are definite pro's and con's to both. Raging barbs would w/out doubt be harder.

I have only played a fractal and or continent map one time. I don't like water. It takes too long to go to war. There seems to be more luck involved when you play any Continent type map (IMO from the post which I have read concerning these map types) due to the fact you may or may not have good trading partners, if any at all. What if you are on a Continet with Toku/Stalin/Ragnar/Shaka ? Good luck ^^. I have read acidsatyr believes war can be tougher on pangea maps due to more AI's.

Point in short, I don't prefer island type maps. I have never tried for a cultural victory, space race, or UN. I have never even built a single space component. It's all about building to war and conquer for me. Also, most games online don't have Barbs (just thought I'd throw that in).I play alot more multiplayer than I do single player. It's faster pace and keeps you on your toes which is more realistic. After all, when you are in single player, and you are at war, you can take as much time as you desire before making a decision. In real life, if you were at war, that's a luxury you wouldn't have.

So to deal with fewer trading parters you need to produce more income yourself. gold/silver/gems/ and Cottages ^^. You would have to tweak a city to prioritize cottages more than likely.

I am slowly aquiring a preference for a CE type game(hybrid really!). This does delay Liberalism a bit more but I find it EASIER to MANAGE and maintain/support my empire than the SE/FE. I don't think it is necessarily stronger, just that it's easier to Use.

I'm also a big fan of Petes games, and as we speak, I am trying a Barb setting (believe or not!) Emperor game with Incas were I go Stonehenge/Oracle .... to something, lol. I want to gear the game towards quick Cottages, quick population, and quick lightbulbing of paper and education (as I don't believe you can do early cottages, big cities, pop philo and paper/education). GL may or may not be involved, but I do find literature useful w/out the GL for heroic epic.

Anyways, WAY off topic. If I figure it out I'll let you know

[Saketh]

I am slowly aquiring a preference for a CE type game. This does delay Liberalism a bit more but I find it EASIER to MANAGE and maintain/support my empire than the SE/FE. I don't think it is necessarily stronger, just that it's easier to Use.

As I am working with the CE and SE/FE strategies, I am becoming convinced that a mix of the two is the best strategy in the long-term. The momentum that SE generates rapidly is lost towards the end of the game, while the CE juggernaut takes a while to get up and running. Blended properly, the SE will accelerate your empire into early dominance, and the CE will ensure long-term stability.

Of course, this is all theory, and I'm still testing it out. I think I need to assimilate some general tips on managing warfare in Civilization.

[lukep]

Originally Posted by Saketh

As I am working with the CE and SE/FE strategies, I am becoming convinced that a mix of the two is the best strategy in the long-term. The momentum that SE generates rapidly is lost towards the end of the game, while the CE juggernaut takes a while to get up and running. Blended properly, the SE will accelerate your empire into early dominance, and the CE will ensure long-term stability.

Of course, this is all theory, and I'm still testing it out. I think I need to assimilate some general tips on managing warfare in Civilization.

I agree a lot on this. I used to run mostly SE/FE and if that was ok on prince and below, on monarch i usually loose ground in late renaissance. In recent games, i had some cities prepared for CE in the ancient eras (more cottage that i can work, switching them as they grow) and this did wonders.

Still SE/FE is key for early expansion, methink.

[MKElderGod]

I think the best way is to go mainly CE hybrid> incorporating SE/FE. Especially MP. I also see that everyone who does SE/FE incorporates CE. I mean in this thread the guy said "In my cap I build only cottages">> seems to me that its a CE.

Ive played a 1 v 1 and with my CE I Found my self expanding at the same rate but out teching my opponent THAT + INCA. I found me having 2 wonders already and units to handle anything. it was 860 to 530 before war. Than he lost.

But i got a Question what is the best economy MP wise? I feel its CE.

[30+]

Once again young one, most people do THIS: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...highlight=poll

Yada yada yada.