The Immortal Challenge 2: For the Fatherland

[The Green Man]

This may be of no importance, but I don't think your black-dot barbarian city belongs to the barbs anymore: I noticed in Izzy's trade window that Phrygian is listed as one of her cities, which was the name of that town iirc.

I would've built Salamanca one square north (in the desert), but I think it's alright where it is. Resettling it north trades some coast tiles for two more hills you could mine and forested grassland on a river (though it also means a little overlap with Munich). Keep it as-is if you want the commerce, maybe?

[aelf]

Round 4: 325AD - 840AD

You know, there are times when I just don't know how to begin an update, and this is one of them. So let me just start with the capture of Valencia:



An easy kill with meagre returns, no more, but fun nonetheless It was razed, of course.

Anyway, since Washington seemed to be top contender, I resolved not to trade Philosophy to him. When Brennus broke out of his WFYABTA-induced reticence and offered this trade, though, I didn't need to think very hard:



The AIs had a number of good techs on us (Feudalism, Currency and Metal Casting). If we hoped to be able to get those off them anytime soon, we had to use Philosophy as a bargaining chip. We would just not trade it to Washington. And since Brennus was going to revert to WFYABTA once we make another tech trade, making a deal with him first made sense.

On the next turn, I tried to get both Currency and MC from Huayna for Philosophy and Feudalism, but he refused. Evidently, he was close to getting Feudalism himself. I decided to wait for CS to see if we could get a better deal.

By the time we discovered the tech, Brennus had gotten it as well (making him the top contender now), so trading it to Huayna didn't seem so bad:



He actually offered Archery as well, but that is useless to us and would only exacerbate WFYABTA, so I took it out. I couldn't take Compass because it was redded out.

Well, yes, this made both Huayna and Brennus better candidates for the Liberalism race than Washington for the moment. But I wasn't too worried, since we had a GS that could lightbulb Paper:



Being able to go straight to Education ensured that we had a lead over them. However, there was no way of telling if Washington was about to get Paper as well (he did get CS 10+ turns earlier than us), so trading Philosophy to him was a no-no.

We also made a civics change on that turn:



Bureaucracy was quite obvious, but OR instead of Pacifism? I can already hear some of you screaming Well, Berlin was still waiting for the missionary being built in Madrid (I took UncleJJ's advice and whipped a Buddhist monastery in Madrid instead of a library), and we could make use of OR's building bonus and the ability to build more missionaries anywhere for now. Besides, we still had a relatively large army, which would quickly drain our coffers under Pacifism. I prefer to wait until more of our troops have died

Anyway, I had decided to save the GG for a Medic III chariot, which I thought would be more useful for our current campaign and the next one, and it finally appeared:



And, as you can see, we were suddenly researching Machinery instead of Education. Why was that so? I wanted to wait for another GS to appear to lightbulb part of Education without wasting beakers. I had decided to build the NE in Berlin after all (since we've agreed that we don't really need more than one shrine), and it was very nearly completed. The next GS would appear soon, but not soon enough to be fully useful if we were to continue researching Education. So, to solve this problem of timing, I decided to research another good tech in the meantime.

Back to the war, our SoD finally besieged and laid waste to Santiago:



And, two turns later, the same thing happened to Phrygian, the former barb city:



They were both razed to the ground, as proposed. A city would be built 2W of Santiago's location, a much better spot, to grab the wine and the corn.

Then look who came again:



Trying to be sneaky, eh, friend? We aren't that stupid.

We discovered Machinery on the same turn and resumed researching Education (but not at at 100% science rate to avoid wastage - only a few turns more to the next GS). We will win the Liberalism race, folks. No one can stop us!

[to be continued in the next post...]

[aelf]

[continued from previous post]

Next, the Santiago-replacement was settled:



Yup, building a city from scratch at this stage is a pain, even if it has improvements all around from the start. Having a population to whip to begin with is just too convenient.

Salamanca, meanwhile, was spared the sword:



As I have mentioned, this coastal city, with its iron, hills and food (pigs) to power production can be our naval yard in the future.

By the time we got to the city, Isabella had finally managed to get longbows. Quite expectedly, the toll was heavy - we lost two catapults, 3-4 axemen and 1 swordsman trying to kill two defending longbows. This practically exhausted our army. Thankfully, we've met all our war objectives anyway, so it was time to negotiate peace:



Yes, she was actually confident enough to be yawning! Being in possession of 3 good cities (Barcelona, Seville and Cordoba), the Spanish still had a presence, one strong enough to rule out capitulation. I took the deal after taking Archery out as usual. There's not much we can do at the moment. The best option is to build more catapults and some macemen before resuming our attack.

Next, Brennus paid us another visit:



Still at loggerheads with Washington, I see (Taoism, having somehow spread to his cities, probably helped). Since we would eventually attack the Americans anyway, I was tempted to agree to this demand. However, the Spanish aren't dead yet and our military isn't exactly in excellent shape at the moment. The last thing we need is the Americans having any pretext to declare war on us before we finish the Spanish off. I had to refuse.

And, finally, our next GS was born:



After lightbulbing, Education took only 2 turns to discover at 100% science rate. I stopped playing after that. There are some decisions we need to make at this point.

Now that the war is over and we've (just) built all the Buddhist missionaries we need for the moment, it seems the time is ripe for another civic switch. Some of you probably think that the switch to Pacifism is overdue. We will indeed switch to that civic. However, if we are going to build up our army for another war with Spain shortly, it might be wise to switch to Vassalage as well (only 1 turn of anarchy for both civics):



And there's actually a sort of strange synergy between the two civics. Pacifism increases unit support costs, but Vassalage gives you 9 additional free units, thus negating some of the former's costs. This makes it a rather attractive combination. The only downside is we'd get to Liberalism a little slower (10 turns at the current rate) due to the loss of Bureaucracy's commerce bonus. What do you think of this?

Here's the current tech situation:



Too bad Washington wouldn't trade Engineering (probably building the Hagia Sophia). Otherwise, we might be able to get it for both Philosophy and Paper. Theology and Music are both still untradeable, since their respective wonders have not been built. That's too bad as well, since we could easily get both from the Spanish (we have all those techs on them). The only thing we can do at the moment is trade Philosophy to Washington for Compass, world map and 230 gold, but I'm not sure we want to do that.

Here's the power graph:



Not very good, obviously. Isabella's rose a little thanks to the introduction of longbows, while ours fell due to the losses we sustained towards the end of the campaign.

The GNP:



Better, but nothing amazing since we've only surpassed the Spanish. However, we're running a hybrid economy (it is undeniably one by now) so this isn't really worrying.

And here's the current map of the continent:



We've secured our corner on the landmass, but I'm afraid Madrid is suffocated by the cultures of Cordoba (where a Great Work was created?) and Barcelona, so the peace should probably not last long. I wouldn't wait for trebuchets. Building several more catapults and a few macemen would probably suffice for the opening of the next campaign. I would go for Barcelona, then Seville and then down to Cordoba (there may be another city between the last two, though), after which Isabella should be willing to capitulate. What do you think of the plan?

One more thing: I think a conversion to Taoism might be called for in the future. The religion has spread to Berlin and we have a free missionary for any border town that might need immediate culture. This means we would be reaping virtually all the benefits of a state religion under Pacifism while keeping Brennus off our back as we take on Washington. We might even be able to bribe the Celt to declare war on Huayna.

I hope you guys are satisfied with this update until I come back on Friday or Saturday I'll try to come online to add to the discussion during this time.

[cabert]

what techs do you have on huyna?
can you get engineering without giving up paper or education?

Anyway, you shouldn't plan on the next war now. You have catapults and macemen to build before this, while also building those cheap universities.
I wouldn't change civics now. Rush to liberalism, then decide what you need (a turn of anarchy now is not worth it).
You should be able to get engineering and compass by trade (even trading education when you're one or 2 turns from lib).
At any rate, you shouldn't declare war on buddhist isabella before being ready to crush America.

[aelf]

Originally Posted by cabert

what techs do you have on huyna?
can you get engineering without giving up paper or education?

We only have Paper (and Education) on him.

I'm fine with giving away Paper for Engineering. Unless you're thinking about getting Sankore. But then we might as well grab Nationalism with Liberalism and build the Taj with our marble. Come to think of it, that's something we need to discuss too:

What should we pick as the free tech?

Originally Posted by cabert

At any rate, you shouldn't declare war on buddhist isabella before being ready to crush America.

I wouldn't be too worried about American intervention, since Washington has a hostile Brennus to contend with.

[cabert]

Originally Posted by aelf

We only have Paper (and Education) on him.

I'm fine with giving away Paper for Engineering. Unless you're thinking about getting Sankore. But then we might as well grab Nationalism with Liberalism and build the Taj with our marble. Come to think of it, that's something we need to discuss too:

What should we pick as the free tech?



I wouldn't be too worried about American intervention, since Washington has a hostile Brennus to contend with.

engineering costs more than paper. So if you don't have a huge pile of money, you won't get it for this. Maybe you could trade paper for compass + gold, then go to huyna and try to get engineering for paper + gold (it should cost you something like 800 gold if he is not hostile to you).
I'd take nationalism for free alright and go for the taj.

Alternatively, you could trade
- paper for compass+gold from
- paper for bribing huyna on washington
- education for engineering from huyna or GW and for optics (I'm sure one of the AIs will have it before you finish lib) and go for circumnavigation.
- take printed press for free, research (or, unlikely, trade for gunpowder) then lightbulb chemistry

[aelf]

Originally Posted by cabert

engineering costs more than paper. So if you don't have a huge pile of money, you won't get it for this.

Well, I did say Paper and Philosophy.

Originally Posted by cabert

Maybe you could trade paper for compass + gold

Oh, yes. I completely forgot that we could trade Paper to Washington.

Originally Posted by cabert

Alternatively, you could trade
- paper for compass+gold from
- paper for bribing huyna on washington
- education for engineering from huyna or GW and for optics (I'm sure one of the AIs will have it before you finish lib) and go for circumnavigation.
- take printed press for free, research (or, unlikely, trade for gunpowder) then lightbulb chemistry

I'm not too concerned about circumnavigation. Our continent looks big enough to get us domination without ever having to sail out. Huayna and Washington are good friends so we can't bribe them against each other.

Printing Press isn't as good as Nationalism in this game because we don't have that many cottages. The latter leads to Constitution. I'm not so sure about building the Taj, though. It's always a dubious wonder to me. Is 20 turns or so of construction (with chopping) in our best production city worth one golden age?

[cabert]

Originally Posted by aelf

Well, I did say Paper and Philosophy.

Did you ?
good enough for me then

I'm not too concerned about circumnavigation. Our continent looks big enough to get us domination without ever having to sail out. Huayna and Washington are good friends so we can't bribe them against each other.

finding other trading partners can't be all that bad

Printing Press isn't as good as Nationalism in this game because we don't have that many cottages.

It's trading bait, and it opens up lighbulbing chemistry.
It's also on the path to replaceable parts which is on the way to rifling which is opening the units you would draft
I'm not saying this is what you should do, but it's not a move even for someone running a hybrid economy.

The latter leads to Constitution. I'm not so sure about building the Taj, though. It's always a dubious wonder to me. Is 20 turns or so of construction (with chopping) in our best production city worth one golden age?

Certainly! More so if you go to war soon and have more cities .

[Harbourboy]

Good stuff, aelf. Thanks for showing me how progress can be made even when the game says you are in last place. This tells me to never give up hope (like in WOTM 7......)

[Gryman]

I am still without Warlords and have not seen the save, but a couple general thoughts on the game.

First, Nationalism seems like the best tech available from liberalism only for the fact that it gets you one step closer to Representation. If you are in fact still attempting a specialist economy it seems common sense to prioritize Constitution. The Taj Mahal is questionable at best IMHO in a specialist economy because you are working a majority of farms which see no benefit to a golden age unless on a river or plain. The only GA to consider is one to boost production in order to quickly churn out an army while temporarily firing nearly all specialists in the empire as they see no benefit from GA.

I like the battle plan as mentioned in order to relieve the cultural pressure and hopefully provide a handfull of CRIII Macemen for upgrade in later wars.

I also strongly agree w/ converting to Toaism for reasons mentioned as well as the fact that raising relations to friendly may be the only possibility of continuing trade w/ Brennus in spite of WFYABTA.

Printing Press and Chemistry can both be lightbulbed in order to upgrade to an attacking force of Grenadiers soon followed by a draft of Rifles.

You also might want to consider self researching banking if it does not become available for trade soon. Might want to plan on civics swap to Representation and Mercantalism together. The extra specialists can often quickly justify the invested beakers post Representation.

Game looks to be well on track and I'm looking forward to following future updates. Good Job so far Aelf!

[kniteowl]

Vassalage actually gives you unlimited free units , depending how many units you have that is over the Free Unit cap, well that's what it says in the Civic 's Menu on this website, so if you had 20 units over the cap, Vassalage would say you have 20 Free Units.

I Say don't switch Civics until you've finish the Liberalism Race, I'm notna Immortal Player but any Advantage getting to Lib, before the AI, you should definitely take.

About Civics Changes, Switch Civics After Liberalism, when you pick Nationalism as the free tech, then Switch to Nationhood and Pacifism, you may not get hte Synergy like you did with Vassalage and Pacifism, but at least their both their Civics Cost is Zero so, in that sense their synergetic. Besides Drafting is one of those things that make SE have a high Advantage over CE, as you can Quickly regrow you Pop after Drafting because of all those Farms.

What to Research afterwards, is dependant on what you want to focus on, War or Economy, Constutition and Banking is Obvious to improve your research Rate for Representation and Mertilism or you can go the Warmonger Way for Gunpowder and Military Tradition (remember to trade for Music) it's up to you really.

[EEE_BOY]

pick up nationalism for constitution but not nationhood, as no unit can be drafted at the moment. taj can be given a try, the boost in hammer can produce units or buildings quicker, following quick after washington is never a bad idea. the great artist is not that bad when culture bomb in peaceful building time, besides artist partly lightbulb democracy for early SoL. don't delay the civics change, as u have paper and education in bag, first to libreralism is no worry. extra xp are important for offensive unit. when u get constitution , swith back to bureaucracy with representation and build only defensive units. when u trade for banking and get SoL another civics change with caste system and mercantilism, stick to them to minimize civic swith. by that time i believe the empire size is big enough for peaceful build and beeline to UB and UU, then head to domination.

[Yeekim]

Originally Posted by kniteowl

Vassalage actually gives you unlimited free units , depending how many units you have that is over the Free Unit cap, well that's what it says in the Civic 's Menu on this website, so if you had 20 units over the cap, Vassalage would say you have 20 Free Units.

Is this true? Actually is says "New units receive +2 experience points;
More free units".
I was imagining that the number of free units did have some sort of correlation with the size of your empire/army, but I never thought that it actually was unlimited feee units! I am more of a builder type, therefore it usually seemed to me, that Vassalage only gives some very marginal cost-benefit... This makes Vassalage so much more attractive all of a sudden!Thank you, kniteowl...one learns something new every day

About current game: good job. Obviously take Nationalism from Liberalism, then b-line to Democracy, picking up Banking along the way: SoL+Mercantilism+Representation+UB should give some extremely powerful synergy... we actually saw something like this last time

[kniteowl]

Originally Posted by EEE_BOY

pick up nationalism for constitution but not nationhood, as no unit can be drafted at the moment.

Um... He Can Draft Maces and in the Rare circumstance that he hasn't researched Machinery, he can draft Swords.

Originally Posted by Yeekim

Is this true? Actually is says "New units receive +2 experience points;
More free units".
I was imagining that the number of free units did have some sort of correlation with the size of your empire/army, but I never thought that it actually was unlimited feee units! I am more of a builder type, therefore it usually seemed to me, that Vassalage only gives some very marginal cost-benefit... This makes Vassalage so much more attractive all of a sudden!Thank you, kniteowl...one learns something new every day

Lol Sorry but it's not Unlimited Free Units, I went back to check the XML

Spoiler:

<iBaseFreeUnits>5</iBaseFreeUnits>
<iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>0</iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>
<iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>10</iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>

From What I can interpret, you get the 1st 5 Units Free + 10% of your Population that would go to your Unit Count Which is also free so for aelf, He gets 9 units Free which ain't much, because if he increased his Population, he'd also increase his Civics Cost, So Vassalage for Free Units Aren't exactly a good thing as there is a Financial Cost.

Sorry and a million Apologies If I misled you... the More Free Units is kind of Ambiguous ... Can anyone here who understand the Civ Game Mechanics tell us how the actual calculations for the 10FreeUnitsPopulationPercent is actually Calculated, What does it exactly mean. If I had a Population of "X" how many Free units would I get under that Civic?

I've always Assumed Vassalage just gave you free units, whenever I built new units , the number of Free units in the Vassalage Civics just increased. NOW I can Change and Read XMLs... well a little bit.

[Dirk1302]

As for free tech, research liberalism till one turn is left. Then look at the situation and see if you're in time to research or trade for Optics, you can take
Astronomy as free tech then. It's one of the most expensive techs out there and it gives an enormous boost to your economy after meeting the other continent.

[Tomek]

Originally Posted by Dirk1302

As for free tech, research liberalism till one turn is left. Then look at the situation and see if you're in time to research or trade for Optics, you can take
Astronomy as free tech then. It's one of the most expensive techs out there and it gives an enormous boost to your economy after meeting the other continent.

Absolutely agree. I would even propose to research liberalism while trading optics for sth else - it saves our time - as Aelf said waiting is the worst thing on immortal. I'm afraid that if we are going for the optics first then for liberalism we lose our race for a free tech.

[Yeekim]

[/QUOTE] Lol Sorry but it's not Unlimited Free Units, I went back to check the XML

From What I can interpret, you get the 1st 5 Units Free + 10% of your Population that would go to your Unit Count Which is also free so for aelf, He gets 9 units Free which ain't much, because if he increased his Population, he'd also increase his Civics Cost, So Vassalage for Free Units Aren't exactly a good thing as there is a Financial Cost.

Sorry and a million Apologies If I misled you... the More Free Units is kind of Ambiguous ... Can anyone here who understand the Civ Game Mechanics tell us how the actual calculations for the 10FreeUnitsPopulationPercent is actually Calculated, What does it exactly mean. If I had a Population of "X" how many Free units would I get under that Civic?

I've always Assumed Vassalage just gave you free units, whenever I built new units , the number of Free units in the Vassalage Civics just increased. NOW I can Change and Read XMLs... well a little bit.[/QUOTE]

Dang, I was already hoping Although, Totally Free Army would have been a bit overpowered, I guess
No need to apologize, though. I just hope too, that someone knowledgeable shall be able to explain the mechanics behind this civic a bit. Also...how much does the 9 free units actually save for aelf? Is it 1 gold per unit...or are there some other factors (inflation??)? I can't be quite sure from the top of my head...

[cabert]

No need to apologize, though. I just hope too, that someone knowledgeable shall be able to explain the mechanics behind this civic a bit. Also...how much does the 9 free units actually save for aelf? Is it 1 gold per unit...or are there some other factors (inflation??)? I can't be quite sure from the top of my head...

2 things factor in the cost of those units :
- level modifier : at immortal, it's 90% of unit cost (= 0.9 gold per unit)
- inflation, but this isn't really important now (+ it's changing everyturn, and the same factor applies to the civic cost)

[aelf]

Originally Posted by Gryman

The Taj Mahal is questionable at best IMHO in a specialist economy because you are working a majority of farms which see no benefit to a golden age unless on a river or plain. The only GA to consider is one to boost production in order to quickly churn out an army while temporarily firing nearly all specialists in the empire as they see no benefit from GA.

Good point. That does detract from the value of the Taj. Like EEE_BOY suggests, we might as well save our effort for the SoL later.

Originally Posted by Dirk1302

As for free tech, research liberalism till one turn is left. Then look at the situation and see if you're in time to research or trade for Optics, you can take
Astronomy as free tech then. It's one of the most expensive techs out there and it gives an enormous boost to your economy after meeting the other continent.

But a good free tech does not its cost make. Nationalism is most appealing because it leads to Constitution, which is synergistic with specialists, which are in turn synergistic with Philosophical.

Originally Posted by cabert

2 things factor in the cost of those units :
- level modifier : at immortal, it's 90% of unit cost (= 0.9 gold per unit)
- inflation, but this isn't really important now (+ it's changing everyturn, and the same factor applies to the civic cost)

I assume we also save on the +1 gold to every unit cost under Pacifism, no?

[cabert]

Originally Posted by aelf

I assume we also save on the +1 gold to every unit cost under Pacifism, no?

I don't think so. You can try and tell us