The Immortal Challenge 2: For the Fatherland

[bardolph]

I think that the Specialist economy starts to lose steam as the game gets late, GP's get more expensive, and the beaker requirements for modern techs get really high. I say cottage over some farms, let them grow super-fast with Emancipation, and use your Great People on Golden Ages. (2 GA's is worthwhile, 3 is probably not).

In modern times, Golden Age is way better than shrines/academies/settling, because Golden Ages scale with the size of your empire, and the benefits can be put to use immediately.

I'm not sure I agree with the civics switch out of Emancipation. Is 2 turns of anarchy over your entire empire (plus the penalty) really worth 2 whips in one city?

[carl corey]

Originally Posted by aelf

I think it will depend on whether Brennus has gotten Rocketry by then (likely) and whether he will be spamming SAM infantry (which the AI loves to do).

Yeah, that would be a problem. I think I'm really showing my level of play here. On Monarch when I roll with Tanks I love to have huuuuge stacks of planes, but at that point I already have a huge empire with lots of cities set on fighters/bombers. I realize you can't plan wars the same way on Immortal.

The thing about building the Pentagon is it also keeps the wonder off the hands of the AI. I have a sneaky feeling Brennus would be the one getting it if we don't. Having it would also allow us to run Free Religion while building level 3 troops everywhere.

It would indeed suck if Brennus got it... Nappy would be a much better option. See any way to make that happen? I'm still not sold on building it. By the way, I must have missed it, but why are you planning on switching to Free Religion? I've seen other people's reasons but I think I haven't seen yours. The only important improved relations would be with Nappy (I think), but you'd lose any chance to make Izzy tech-trade-able. What are your current relations with the French?

I'm not sure anymore about a Golden Age. It's true that it would provide a short boost, but you still have quite a few techs to research until starting the war... Personally I'd go for a GA most of the times, especially when building such important infrastructure, but I haven't taken a look at the save to see how much of an impact it would really have right now...

[cabert]

a Golden Age now is good if you don't plan to go for space
I personnly would use the GE for pentagon.
I'm not a big fan of this wonder, but you should have a lot of late warring to do...

[Syndrome Zed]

I was initially thinking flight/radio should be put on a relative back-burner for now and using the collateral damage promotion (can't remember the name right now) for the panzers to make up the difference (with arty, though, to do collateral damage and absorb punishment), but between the AI's penchant for gunships and the size of Brennus' military, I think it's a pretty important tech combo after all.

I agree with those who suggested getting Brennus fighting Huayna, then . It's fun watching the power graphs of the two AI's drop precipitously while they accomplish so little most of the time...then jumping in and watching them lose city after city. Here's hoping that's what happens next. Anyway, time to use those diplomatic chops you're so skilled with. Even trying to get Louis into the mix might be a good idea. He may not be effective as a warmonger, since the AI is so lame in its intercontinental fighting skill, but it will certainly divert his "attention" towards war production and away from Outer Space.

I can't think of any ways other than the proposed resource gifting to get Issy to Friendly - you're already Buddhist and that's usually the "big" one for her as far as Diplo bonuses.

Any way to adjust your specialists to get away from GA's for a little bit?

Lastly, I can't believe how badly you screwed up with Washington!! Why, you could have had ARCHERY for God's sake!!

Good round in general though - now go get us some Tiger IV's and let's turn our thoughts southward as the economy rebuilds.

[aelf]

I'm in the middle of playing the next round. It looks like we will have a tough time ahead at best. As expected, the AI's tech pace and power rating are just crazy. We will have to win with extreme brute force. And I won't be surprised if we face mech inf when we attack Brennus.

Maybe this game will be a loss?

[Melior Traiano]

Originally Posted by aelf

I'm in the middle of playing the next round. It looks like we will have a tough time ahead at best. As expected, the AI's tech pace and power rating are just crazy. We will have to win with extreme brute force. And I won't be surprised if we face mech inf when we attack Brennus.

Maybe this game will be a loss?

Hi Aelf et al.,

Great job with the Emperor & Immortal challenges. Very instructive & entertaining. I've recently moved up to Immortal myself, but am only having mixed success using default settings & random leader.

I wouldn't take such a dim view about the prospects of victory, even though it'll be tough slogging if you're going the military route. Maybe an Internet-driven space race might be a better option? With all the production from the UB, building spaceship parts should be relatively quick, once you're caught up on tech.

Your power rating is dangerously low though, & building up a larger standing army would be a good idea just for self-defense, never mind an invasion of Celtia. Also, you might want to donate your obsolete units to your vassals. Hopefully, they'll upgrade the units & the other AIs might see you as a more formidable adversary if your vassals have bigger armies? In any case, better than simply deleting those units.

[aelf]

I've played the next round. Seriously, I don't think we can win this. I also think that going for space might be a better idea, but even the chances are looking slim there. Brennus is just insane. Everybody complains about how difficult playing as him is, but the Brennus AI sure is one hell of an s.o.b. His power ratings are out of this world and his tech rate is the same.

But I don't know where to begin pointing out the mistakes made in this game that led to this. Was it purely the circumstances? Diplomacy-wise, we certainly didn't make any headway, but that is largely because most of the AIs present are hard to get along with.

I'm tempted to roll another map and start all over.

[NaZdReG]

Aelf,


I think you had a tough break in the beginning, and agree that the situation may be unwinnable. seing as how you haven't lost a reported game yet it was due eventually but not because of a lack of skill etc. immortal is beyond my skill level so I have nothing but respect for your attempt at taking it on.

as long as firaxis takes the path of letting the AI cheat to win I don't see how you could consistently win on this difficulty. the research, maintanance, and diplo advantages the AI get are only beatable if you are extremely lucky in opening position, and IMO playing one of the stronger leaders in the pack.

as much as I like playing as germany, I feel they are one of the mid strength civs. perhaps if you do reroll and get a stronger start it will turn out better, and hopefully this game will have been educational in how you can better leverage the situations. personally I'd rather see the struggles of emperor ans they seem more fitting to your skill level.

NaZ

[aelf]

Originally Posted by NaZdReG

seeing as how you haven't lost a reported game

I did. EMC3, first game

Originally Posted by NaZdReG

as much as I like playing as germany, I feel they are one of the mid strength civs. perhaps if you do reroll and get a stronger start it will turn out better, and hopefully this game will have been educational in how you can better leverage the situations. personally I'd rather see the struggles of emperor ans they seem more fitting to your skill level.

Well, diplomacy was a mess in this game. Hardly utilised it at all, couldn't. I think we had a pretty good start, but who the neighbours were and the size of the continent worked against us. I always thought that being on the larger continent is an advantage. Well, not always, it seems.

I guess I could go back and clean up on the SE anyway.

[NaZdReG]

I don't think EMC3 really counts, you got a screwed start on tough settings, and won the reroll'd map anyway.

if you lose at immortal then you do.. the difficulty level requires a LOT of luck in map, resources, and AI to have a chance at winning.

given that the series has shown so many strats I would suggest going back to emperor, or taking on the next immortal with a stronger leader. I don't see how its really possible to keep up with immortal AI tech pace given their bonuses. but I digress. it is always good to read your games, I hope if you do go down that you do in a blaze of glory!!!

NaZ

[bardolph]

So, if you were to wage a long spoiling campaign against Brennus, how likely is it that Louis will grab a Space Victory?

My vote is, go down in a blaze of glory! Fight it out to the bitter end. That could be very instructive as well, and you might just surprise yourself.

(EDIT: Please post the last round and save before throwing in the towel. We might be able to come up with some new ideas that can rescue the position. Also, fantastic work as always, Aelf! Your games have improved my play immeasurably.)

[axident]

Originally Posted by aelf

I've played the next round. Seriously, I don't think we can win this. I also think that going for space might be a better idea, but even the chances are looking slim there. Brennus is just insane. Everybody complains about how difficult playing as him is, but the Brennus AI sure is one hell of an s.o.b. His power ratings are out of this world and his tech rate is the same.

But I don't know where to begin pointing out the mistakes made in this game that led to this. Was it purely the circumstances? Diplomacy-wise, we certainly didn't make any headway, but that is largely because most of the AIs present are hard to get along with.

I'm tempted to roll another map and start all over.

I haven't looked at your save, but never underestimate how bad the AI is at war (or the space race for that matter). Snaaty did it in his Persian campaign, and I'm sure you can do it too. I'd pack a LOT of artillery, though, and bombers when you can get them, and brace for the counter-attack with CG-promoted stuff that you spam into the first Celtic city that you capture. Bring medics, too, naturally.

Once you break the back of Brennus's counterattacking forces by watching them kill themselves on your newly-captured city's stalwart defenses, the rest of his power graph will be mostly inconsequential city garrisons. You may have to weather a few more stacks to completely destroy his offense, though. After that it's just collateral damage + Panzer mop-up crew.

You can also toy with the AI by sending a diversionary force.. basically take out one of his least important cities far away from his heartland, and brace for the counterattack as the AI stupidly sends virtually all of its non-garrision army to that city. Even if you lose that city, it doesn't matter as long as you can hang onto it for a while; the bulk of your army will tear through his heartland in the meantime.

Also, bribing others into helping you take down Brennus would be a good idea, if you can swing it.

[UncleJJ]

In a war of attrition against Brennus you should be able to inflict 4 or 5 times the casualties he will inflict on you if you play defensively. I have fought some very interesting battles against stronger opponents on monarch in this period of rifles, cannons cavalry, infantry, SAMs and artillery. The key is to break the back of their forces on your own territory where your forces move faster and heal quicker. In your cities your forces get a big 40% or 60% defensive bonus and the AI is so stupid that they attack or sit outside for a turn. I expect Brennus will send lots of uncoordinated small stacks to attack your cities or try to move past to pillage deeper in your land. Your concentrated and better coordinated forces will reek havoc.

The main problem you could face is war weariness from his attacks. You will be fighting inside your own cultural borders but your vassal Washington's culture is still dominant. I am not sure if you pick up WW when fighting on your own territory where your vassal's culture is dominant.

If you want to go over to the offensive you will need to solve the WW problem. The sheer number of attacks you make and Brennus will make and potential casualties in this age means WW will be the limiting factor So you will need to run Police State and build Mt Rushmore and also jails in your bigger cities to completely avoid its effects. Researching Facism is therefore essential before you can attack in force and of course with Police State you would lose Representation and a large part of your research potential.

Can you defeat Brennus and then overrun Huaya Capac before Louis can launch? It is possible if Louis is incompetant at the Space Race (and he might be) and if you can disrupt his efforts with spies. Once Brennus is broken you should be able to defeat the Incan with your immense war machine. Expect lots of very intensive battles.

[Melior Traiano]

Originally Posted by aelf

I've played the next round. Seriously, I don't think we can win this. I also think that going for space might be a better idea, but even the chances are looking slim there. Brennus is just insane. Everybody complains about how difficult playing as him is, but the Brennus AI sure is one hell of an s.o.b. His power ratings are out of this world and his tech rate is the same.

But I don't know where to begin pointing out the mistakes made in this game that led to this. Was it purely the circumstances? Diplomacy-wise, we certainly didn't make any headway, but that is largely because most of the AIs present are hard to get along with.

I'm tempted to roll another map and start all over.

Obviously, the next round's report & save hasn't been posted yet, but it sounds like Brennus is the biggest threat, both militarily & scientifically. Maybe you can make happy with the Celt by adopting Taoism as your state religion? You're using Pacifism, but it seems to me that Berlin's doing more of the GP generation & it has Taoism already anyway. Brennus's co-religionist bonus tops out at +8, IIRC. That could bring you up to friendly/defensive pact territory. If you get the DP, Louis (or HC) won't even think of coming after you. Then you can make your run at the Internet-boosted space race. True, you might still come up short, but this is Immortal & a loss at this level is sometimes (often?) not really due to the failings of the player.

[bardolph]

Originally Posted by Melior Traiano

Obviously, the next round's report & save hasn't been posted yet, but it sounds like Brennus is the biggest threat, both militarily & scientifically. Maybe you can make happy with the Celt by adopting Taoism as your state religion?

If Brennus is the biggest threat, then Brennus needs to be attacked, not placated. Perhaps making a DP with Huayna or Louis is in order, or bribing one of them to dogpile Brennus.

Only cozy up to Brennus if you're absolutely sure you can beat him in a space race. Otherwise, man the artillery!

[shyuhe]

Originally Posted by aelf

Brennus is just insane. Everybody complains about how difficult playing as him is, but the Brennus AI sure is one hell of an s.o.b. His power ratings are out of this world and his tech rate is the same.

I've personally experienced this as well. Brennus with AI bonuses is CRAZY. However, human Brennus is quite sucky in comparison (bad starting techs, etc.). I've seen Brennus grow into a monster with powerful vassals in many games. He is not to be taken lightly on the higher levels.

[Melior Traiano]

Originally Posted by bardolph

If Brennus is the biggest threat, then Brennus needs to be attacked, not placated. Perhaps making a DP with Huayna or Louis is in order, or bribing one of them to dogpile Brennus.

Only cozy up to Brennus if you're absolutely sure you can beat him in a space race. Otherwise, man the artillery!

Let's go through this.

Brennus is up rifles, cavalry AND artillery on Aelf already. And on top of that, easily has 5x the Power rating. And on top of that, is one tech from fielding infantry. While it's true that Aelf can field infantry too after researching Rifling, the research & the building of units will take time. Brennus can upgrade all his existing rifles to infantry immediately. And even if Aelf attacks Celtia & actually somehow manages to make headway, Brennus would be in a better position to bribe other AIs than Aelf would be because of the teching disparity. Even supposing Brennus doesn't/can't bribe any of them, HC & especially Louis can backstab Aelf without even blinking.

What can Aelf bribe Louis or HC with? Louis is annoyed & HC is cautious. They're opportunists, not out & out warmongers, so it won't be easy to bribe them to do anything, even if their attitudes were better, never mind now.

Another reason to aim for DP with Brennus: if Brennus does decide to attack anyone while DP is in effect, it'll be either Louis or HC. And if he does start a war with either of those two, then maybe, Aelf can be opportunistic himself and backstab Brennus while Celtia's armies are away fighting either France or Inca. Who knows, if Aelf builds a decent standing army, he could blitzkrieg through Celtia if such an opportunity came up.

At this stage, no one can be sure Brennus wouldn't win the space race. What I'm pretty sure of is that if Aelf doesn't increase his power rating by a lot and/or make happy with Brennus, Brennus will attack. Building a huge army as a deterrent would siphon funds from research, which is desperately needed. That only leaves one option: peaceful space race & pray that the Internet will allow catching up. A disciplined beeline to the Internet might still allow a miraculous come from behind victory. Going head to head with Brennus in a slugging match would be folly IMHO.

[bardolph]

Originally Posted by Melior Traiano

Let's go through this.

Brennus is up rifles, cavalry AND artillery on Aelf already. And on top of that, easily has 5x the Power rating. And on top of that, is one tech from fielding infantry. While it's true that Aelf can field infantry too after researching Rifling, the research & the building of units will take time. Brennus can upgrade all his existing rifles to infantry immediately. And even if Aelf attacks Celtia & actually somehow manages to make headway, Brennus would be in a better position to bribe other AIs than Aelf would be because of the teching disparity. Even supposing Brennus doesn't/can't bribe any of them, HC & especially Louis can backstab Aelf without even blinking.

What can Aelf bribe Louis or HC with? Louis is annoyed & HC is cautious. They're opportunists, not out & out warmongers, so it won't be easy to bribe them to do anything, even if their attitudes were better, never mind now.

How do you know these things? Has Aelf posted a save somewhere other than this thread?

At this stage, no one can be sure Brennus wouldn't win the space race. What I'm pretty sure of is that if Aelf doesn't increase his power rating by a lot and/or make happy with Brennus, Brennus will attack. Building a huge army as a deterrent would siphon funds from research, which is desperately needed. That only leaves one option: peaceful space race & pray that the Internet will allow catching up. A disciplined beeline to the Internet might still allow a miraculous come from behind victory. Going head to head with Brennus in a slugging match would be folly IMHO.

A beeline to Internet isn't a bad strategy, IF Aelf can build it before Brennus launches. If the Internet does get built in time, the best strategy IMO is to turn off tech altogether and launch a spoiling war against Brennus. Use spies to determine which cities need to be captured/razed to prevent a launch. The techs from the Internet should provide access to enough modern units to make this viable.

No matter what, the solution has to involve warfare somewhere along the way. It's the one area where the human advantage is significant to close the gap.

[Melior Traiano]

Originally Posted by bardolph

How do you know these things? Has Aelf posted a save somewhere other than this thread?

See save from last round. I do stand corrected in one thing though: Brennus still only has cannons as of last round's save. That said, I wouldn't want to be warring on the wrong side of the cavalry vs grenadier mismatch.

edit: Brennus has machine guns, not artillery. Grenadiers vs machine guns, shall we say advantage machine guns?

A beeline to Internet isn't a bad strategy, IF Aelf can build it before Brennus launches. If the Internet does get built in time, the best strategy IMO is to turn off tech altogether and launch a spoiling war against Brennus. Use spies to determine which cities need to be captured/razed to prevent a launch. The techs from the Internet should provide access to enough modern units to make this viable.

No matter what, the solution has to involve warfare somewhere along the way. It's the one area where the human advantage is significant to close the gap.

And all this ignores the fact that while you're busy making war on one AI & even turning off research altogether, the other two AIs are peacefully teching & building parts toward space. By going all out to stall Brennus, all you would be doing is handing victory over to another AI, probably Louis. The one thing I do agree with though is using spies to monitor the spaceship progress in all the AIs that are close to launching & sabotage as much as possible/needed to buy time. If you couple good spywork with building up your own spaceship, victory is still possible. But it's pointless to stall if you aren't building your own spaceship. You can stall the AIs for a while, but you can't stall them forever.

[NaZdReG]

well.. blaze of glory thoughts..

aelf can you tech to nukes in time?? if so why not just nuke the crap out of brennus and the french.. atleast their capitols to stop the spaceship launch if at all possible.

and spies would be helpful though I don't know how much damage you could do to the french in this regard.

reduce the world to desert!!! if you cannot have the world why should they??

NaZ