The Immortal Challenge 2: For the Fatherland

Round 1: 4000BC - 2240BC

In view of the excellence of our starting location, I decided to settle in place:



First build was worker while we researched Agriculture and Animal Husbandry, as recommended. We stood to gain from an early worker to improve the corn and the cows. But this would also cause a few problems, as you will see.

I ignored the hut right next to our capital, since chances were our border would pop it anyway. Our scout found another one a little further away:



Gold's not bad. Better than maps.

And our border did pop the neighbouring hut a little later, giving us more gold:



A few turns later, we met our first neighbour:



Ah, everyone's favourite girl (hi, Sisiutil ;)). Maybe it's just me, but I don't find her very intimidating. If it was Monty, yes I'd be worried. But Isabella is easy enough to manage until we kill her.

We got more gold from a hut:



Well, we can't really expect techs, can we? Like I said, gold is better than maps.

After the worker was completed, Berlin built two warriors while growing (one would do some fogbusting while another sits in the city as garrison). This gave the city time to grow up to the happiness cap, which was quick thanks to the food specials, before building a settler.

And we met another leader, a rather sour-looking Washington:



Well, we certainly caught him lying.

On the next turn, we met another one:



Can't say I like this guy. He's like Isabella but less predictable. He can pose a serious threat later on and he doesn't seem near enough to be dealt with early.

AH was discovered, but there were no horses that I could see. Better cross our fingers and pray for copper. It seemed natural to research Bronze Working next, but I realised that our worker (who had farmed the corn) was going to finish building the pasture way earlier than we would discover it. He would then be idle for far longer than I can stomach. Hence, I decided to research the Wheel first so that he could at least start building roads. We will need the tech anyway.

As luck would have it, we found a hut near the Spanish border:



It seems the Spanish hadn't been doing a good job exploring. Starting with a scout is proving to be quite a boon to us in this game.

After the Wheel was researched, we went on with BW. But there's another problem. Berlin had built the two warriors and should have proceeded to build a settler. However, since we delayed BW, copper would not be revealed by the time we built the settler. As it would be prudent to settle our second city where copper is revealed, assuming there is a source in vicinity, I decided to start on a barracks first and time the completion of the settler with the discovery of BW. Unfortunately, this had the effect of delaying the settling of a second city to a little later than usual.

Then we met yet another leader:



Him again! I've developed a strong dislike for him, since he's hard to get along with and might pose a very big threat later on, and it seems the RNG insists on putting him on the map in every game. This isn't going to be a stroll in the park, although the presence of so many civs on the continent (a rare fact considering the 3-civ continents of past games) is a big mitigating factor.

The round ended as the first settler was built and BW was discovered. Berlin is about to run into the problem of overpopulation:



Yes, we can switch to Slavery and whip, but the bad news is there is nothing to whip :eek: We might be forced to halt growth for some time, even if we buy time by building a worker in Berlin next. Another downside to building a worker first, I guess? On hindsight, we could have built a scout first before the worker.

Speaking of which, our useful starting scout has met his demise at the hands of a barb archer. This is what he managed to explore:



The dark part at the centre is where Spanish territory is. There's a holy city in there, no doubt, since Isabella founded Buddhism (did I mention she was predictable?). And, yes, we have copper nearby, thankfully. Here's a dotmap of where we could or should settle cities next:



Site A grabs the copper and a gold resource, although both would need a border pop. There would also be lots of flood plains in the city's fat cross. Why the rush to get gold? Commercial interests aside, we have no other happiness resource nearby (another argument for getting early Metal Casting for forges?). Site B would grab the remaining gold resources and wheat, and by settling it we would also put ourselves closer to the Spanish in anticipation of a future invasion. Site C would grab pigs (bottom left corner) and more flood plains. I think these are the sites that we could settle before going to war for more territory. What do you think?

Now, we have to make a difficult decision. In view of the situation, should we still go for the Pyramids gambit? If that is the case, we would build the Oracle in copper city (since with marble it would need fewer chops to complete) and the forge and the GE-rushed Pyramids in our capital. Or do you think that it would be too late? Do you think it's better to use those forests for a horde of axemen to invade the Spanish and take over their holy city? If we decide on the latter, we might as well research Writing next and chop a library in Berlin to make use of the food surplus by running scientists. On the other hand, if we are still going for the Pyramids, we would have to research Masonry, Mysticism, Meditation, Priesthood, Fishing? and Pottery (not necessarily in that order).

Your input, please :)
 

Attachments

  • ImmortalChallenge2_BC-2240.CivWarlordsSave
    112.4 KB · Views: 139
Great analysis of options and strategic planning. Before reading these threads on the immortal challenges I never realised the in-depth considerations, since I play at lower levels of difficulty and just go along as I feel is appropriate.

Great learning experience here !!:goodjob:
 
Since your capital is a bit late in the overall production scheme and city #2 (location A?) will be founded late as well (and all the pre-techs we are missing), I think the suggested strategy to grab the Pyramids is a long shot.

Since you are building barracks and you have copper nearby, an early Axemen-rush towards Isabella seems quite tasty to me. :)

The advantages:
- holy shrine
- you'll take out/diminish the leading player in the game so far
- get experienced Axemen early -> Macemen etc.
- her territory is close to yours, so your 'empire' shouldn't be overstreched in the early game

Challenges:
- you will need courthouses early to keep the economy afloat with 5+ cities in the early game, meaning Code Of Laws. The good news is that you are Organized and Courthouses only cost half the hammers to build. :D

Going for Writing techwise and a library seems quite nice - perhaps pursue The Great Library and build an überscience city?

If you get the Oracle build, would you go for CoL or perhaps Metal Casting (if possible to get MC at Immortal level - havn't played this level myself, but I usually favor MC over CoL.)

Very interesting game sofar. ;)
 
I'd go for the pyramid gambit, building the oracle in your second city (site A).
Site B is :cool: enough to build a second settler = no growth and something to whip ;)).
The oracle would give your second city the culture for border pop.
Don't be shy on workers!
I'd build worker, settler in berlin, while you go for the oracle in city A.
 
You can take the Risky Path with the Pyramid Gambit or you can take the safe Path and Axe Rush Isabella.

Personally I'd take the Safe path, Rush Isabella, I'd still build the Oracle and Slingshot to COLs for cheap Organized Courthouses and GPP, Get my 1st Great Person as a GS from the Library using Scientist Specialist lughtbulb Philosophy for early Pacifism Civic, since your going to use a SE. Then Spam Priest in your Oracle City by building Temples for GP to build a Shrine or be Get 2 GP to light-bulb Theology and Later CS (remember to ignore Monarchy) CS is a needed tech for your SE to irrigation and Farms that don't require to be near fresh water sources.
 
I would combine chopped pyramids to the rush. You have at least 13 forests to chop to Berlin if you don't found city C or chop settlers (which I don't recommend as you have plenty of food, use whip instead). That's enough to get pyramids soon enough, combined to whipping both start and finish.

I'd found two cities before war, both A and B. A for obvious reasons (copper) and B for gold. It does add maintenance, but the mine will get you on positive side and get you closer to the Izzy. And gold will let Berlin grow one size bigger. I think ten axes is enough to take Madrid, minor cities can be handled by whatever survives the first battle. Build/whip/chop them in cities A and B and focus on Pyramids in Berlin. As you already have barracks in Berlin, why not build 2-3 of them in there if you like gambling. :)
 
why do you need to know where bronze is before getting the city up? Also you can live with an idle worker, it still pays off bigtime... I would certanly get mysticism before masonry, not only do it help with borderpop of your second city, it also cheapens masonery.
 
why do you need to know where bronze is before getting the city up? Also you can live with an idle worker, it still pays off bigtime... I would certanly get mysticism before masonry, not only do it help with borderpop of your second city, it also cheapens masonery.

right about mysticism
+ you need it for getting to priesthood anyway.
 
I would go for Masonry first. Improved Marble will give the same effects as going for "cheaper Masonry" (Mysticism first). I would place the second city 1N1E to copper. Improving roads would last 4 turns. It would connect two cities, connect Copper and connect capital to the river. 4 more turns and copper would be improved. Then Masonry would be researched and your worker would not be idle. In capital I would start producing third settler now, just to grab gold as fast as possible. Hamburg (new city) should start producing second worker, then Axeman. You have plenty of gold, so do not worry about loosing money. Every new city speeds up constructing The Oracle.

Research path: Masonry -> Mysicism -> Meditation -> Priesthood
 
About my idea.

Spoiler :

I made a simulation of my idea. Everything went ok except that barbs destroyed Hamburg, so maybe 2 warriors before building third settler.


And I regret to say, that Forge Gambit is to forget. One risky thing is you could not finish the Oracle on time (while allowing researching Pottery first). Second risky thing is that the Pyramids could be completed faster. I would simply grab Monarchy from the Oracle.
 
I think you have a problem just hooking up your copper. It seems late for Warriors. Maybe you should stack up more of them while researching Archery.
 
Aelf. I would get out a couple more warriors for defense and fogbusting. I think on immortal the barbs break culture around 2000 so you are underdefended. Actually I would have built warriors for fogbusting instead of the barracks.

As for the oracle: with mas you need 4 techs and you are weak on commerce. That means there's a decent chance you get beat anyway.

Long term you also don't want the prophet pollution anyway.

I would focus on the land grab and skip wonders. I would consider archery as you will be a while to get copper if you settle A. You could very well have some barb problems here as there is a lot of fog.

You can win this w/o wonders if you can take Izzie out--you have great terrain and a good strategic position.
 
I'd suggest settling city A 1NW of the dot. You don't have mysticism (yet) and waiting until it is in, an obelisk built and borders expanded takes too much time.
Building 2-3 more warriors would be beneficial to get fogbusting up and running, essential until you have copper connected.

You sure can try slingshotting but with copper nearby and very good production sites available i'd rather do a fast exe and go after spain.
 
Hold, hold! The condemnations have poured in. That's fast ;)

I don't think I made any decision that was necessarily wrong. IMO even the barracks was alright, since most of the barbs are not anywhere close and I'd rather be building promoted warriors than unpromoted ones if I have to.

About the Pyramids gambit, I'm not sure how likely it is, but I don't think we can do any better. I guess it's just that Immortal sets a very tight deadline. I'm still divided on whether we should pursue it. It's a lot more interesting than the safe way, but it is rather risky.
 
Since the last round, nobody has condemned anything.
 
its honestly not that risky aelf. building the oracle for metal casting is good on its own. the production bonus from the forges will help with axe production to beat on isabella. weather you get the pyramids or not, as long as the forge gets online within 7 turns of the oracle.. you WILL get an engineer first. if someone gets the pyramids out before then don't stress too much.. sucks since you're running an SE, but you could take the library with it or whatever suits your needs from there.

NaZ
 
Hold, hold! The condemnations have poured in. That's fast ;)

I don't think I made any decision that was necessarily wrong. IMO even the barracks was alright, since most of the barbs are not anywhere close and I'd rather be building promoted warriors than unpromoted ones if I have to.
Aelf I'm assuming that you have an incredibly think skin to be doing this.

I'm just calling it like I see it and I'd rather build unpromoted warriors earlier to bust the fog so I don't have to fight than build promoted ones which are pretty marginal anyway. I would have gone your way if we were in process of hooking up bronze and would get a few axes out quick. Just my .02.

As for the oracle-MC sling, just count the turns before you get all the techs you need and it looks pretty doubtful to me. Not to mention the other complications.
 
Since the last round, nobody has condemned anything.

Dunno. I just had that impression on a first reading. But it's alright. We are all free to talk, aren't we? :)

CivSetä;5205712 said:
I would combine chopped pyramids to the rush. You have at least 13 forests to chop to Berlin if you don't found city C or chop settlers (which I don't recommend as you have plenty of food, use whip instead). That's enough to get pyramids soon enough, combined to whipping both start and finish.

The problem with building Pyramids the hard way is its inefficiency. We have marble, not stone, so the wonder is going to cost us a bomb. Seems like a waste to me, as compared to the gambit, with which we get the Oracle, Metal Casting, a forge and the Pyramids. And even if we fail to get the last, as Nazdreg said, we can use the GE for something else later.
 
Aelf I'm assuming that you have an incredibly think skin to be doing this.

Don't worry. I've had worse and the threads have gone on, no?
 
Top Bottom