Communal Corruption Questions

[Nitfan]

Obviously Communism can't be beat when it comes to overall production of a huge empire, my question is how do you personally make the most of the communal corruption benefit in your games?

I'm trying to figure out how to make the most effective communist empire for research purposes, and realized that I don't totally understand how the communal corruption works. If you keep adding cities you keep adding corruption to your productive cities is the way that I understand it. Is there an ideal size for a commi government or is the communal corruption trait so strong that you should just build as many cities as possible with little effect on total corruption?

Here's a screenshot of the Deity game I'm playing right now. I decided it was best to keep adding cities down the continent. Is there a point where I should just decide that I have enough cities and anymore will have a negative effect on my production and science?

It's a huge map and I currently have 97 cities. That's well over the OCN for communism with the SPHQ I'm pretty sure. I usually stay in republic but this game seemed ideal for communism and I'm going to need the production to knock out sumeria. The save can be found below as well.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/upload...y_-_1465AD.SAV

[WackenOpenAir]

Make quality cities. If you have only few quality cities and many crappy cities, those reduce the value of your good cities. Just make sure that all cities become good cities.

[Aceman101]

How can they become good cities if they are really far away and have lots of corruption? I know Police stations and courthouses help. But it would take like 80 turns to build a courthouse and more still for a police station and even when you build them the majority of the shield production is... Corrupt.

[Nitfan]

That's the beauty of communism, take a look at the save to get an idea of how the corruption is spread between the cities. A city that is as far away from your capital as possible will probably only be about 30% corrupt without courthouse/ police station if you are doing things right. I don't think any of my cities are over 15-20%, communism can be very effective if you do it correctly.

[MAS]

Originally Posted by Aceman101

How can they become good cities if they are really far away and have lots of corruption? I know Police stations and courthouses help. But it would take like 80 turns to build a courthouse and more still for a police station and even when you build them the majority of the shield production is... Corrupt.

We are talking about communism here, but assuming you have a city that can only produce 1 uncorrupted shield even in communism, you have 4 ways to deal with this:

1: collect gold for a couple of turns and rush-buy courthouses before switching to communism. (assuming your previous gov had gold rushing)

2: irrigate land and use civil worker specialist, they add 2 unmodifiable shields to your courthouse build each. (this process can also be started before you switch)
3:whip-rush the courthouse.
4: unit disband the courthouse, (you can even build units just for the purpose of disbanding them in less productive cities, this way, you core helps your newer cities.)

You can also combine these techniques: whip-rush the last part after switching while building with specialist during earlier gov (The specialist work under anarchy too by the way) Disband some units, whip the rest. Short-rush under earlier gov, specialist build during anarchy, disband one unit, then whip the last part.

You could aid your progress by joining workers created by several 1-turn worker pumps; Something you should do to get them to size 20 quickly, anyway.

[Aceman101]

Originally Posted by MAS

We are talking about communism here...

I know. It is still a problem if corrupt cities turn uncorrupt cites corrupt. Which is why I said "How can you make bad cities good".

Originally Posted by MAS

but assuming you have a city that can only produce 1 uncorrupted shield even in communism, you have 4 ways to deal with this:

1: collect gold for a couple of turns and rush-buy courthouses before switching to communism. (assuming your previous gov had gold rushing)

Do citizens get civil disorder if you only use gold to rush things. I know they get disoder if you pop rush but what about gold???

Originally Posted by MAS

2: irrigate land and use civil worker specialist, they add 2 unmodifiable shields to your courthouse build each. (this process can also be started before you switch)

How can you make police officers. I'm in the ancient ages and i can only make taxmen, entertainers and scientists. Do you need a secret polic HQ or something?

Originally Posted by MAS

3:whip-rush the courthouse.

That would cause disorder. Would it be worth it?

Originally Posted by MAS

4: unit disband the courthouse, (you can even build units just for the purpose of disbanding them in less productive cities, this way, you core helps your newer cities.)

That's a good idea.

Originally Posted by MAS

You can also combine these techniques: whip-rush the last part after switching while building with specialist during earlier gov (The specialist work under anarchy too by the way) Disband some units, whip the rest. Short-rush under earlier gov, specialist build during anarchy, disband one unit, then whip the last part.

That would work. But you have to do that to every corrupt city and that would cause a LOT of civil disorder.

[Siaphi94]

thats even bigger than my empire. mine was on a large map and i had about 70 citites. Communal corruption helped me alot, it was much better than monarchy, but alot of people use republic so it wouldnt be as bad. it limits corruption and waste no matter how far. thats why i think Communism is a great government.

[Nitfan]

I'm actually up to 119 now with no noticeable effect on my core cities, they are all around 10% corruption. I was doing 4 turn research through the MA at positive gpt without any income from other civs. I was able to get ID in 4 running at a deficit.

Sumeria had to switch back to democracy to keep up and they stole 3 techs from me so I'm in the process of wiping them from the face of the planet. At this point I could've won space race awhile ago but my score is 10250 so I think I might turn it into a milk game and go for a personal best.

I had over 500 Modern Armor before the Sumeria invasion started now I'm down to 371 (They had 500 MI when I started) but I've suffered the worst of the losses at this point, I could take them out with my 24 armies if I wanted to. I already razed their Apollo Program so I just have to take them out before they get to 160K culture.

I agree Communism is a great government if you are large enough to make it useful. I also had great land with a lot rivers which helps a lot too. I abandoned Paris just to see how much Smith's Trading Co was saving me and it turned out to be ~480gpt. I'd be interested to see how I would've faired if I stayed in Republic but I doubt it would've been nearly as well.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/upload...y_-_1720AD.SAV

[MAS]

Originally Posted by Aceman101

Do citizens get civil disorder if you only use gold to rush things. I know they get disoder if you pop rush but what about gold???

No, gold rushing mans you pay for overwork. Pop-rushing means you work citizens to death under force of a "whip." Thats why republic and demo have gold rushing, but despotism and communism have pop-rushing

How can you make police officers. I'm in the ancient ages and i can only make taxmen, entertainers and scientists. Do you need a secret polic HQ or something?

I was talking about civil engineer, not police man. Police reduce corruption and waste, civil engineer add +2 shields to city improvement construction. (not units) They are both available in the industrial age. I'm not sure but I think the police man comes at the same time as the police station, and the civil engineer comes with factories. (though your city doesn't need to have either a police station or factory, they can be used in empty cities too.)

More about how to use them here: The Role of the Specialist Citizen
The lower part of this guide is about conquest, but the principles are the same for all versions.

That would cause disorder. Would it be worth it?

That would work. But you have to do that to every corrupt city and that would cause a LOT of civil disorder.

It causes unhappiness, disorder only happens when you have too much unhappiness.

If you have enough happiness sources to cope with it, it may be worth it, it depends on the situation....

[WackenOpenAir]

Originally Posted by Nitfan

I'm actually up to 119 now with no noticeable effect on my core cities, they are all around 10% corruption. I was doing 4 turn research through the MA at positive gpt without any income from other civs. I was able to get ID in 4 running at a deficit.

Sumeria had to switch back to democracy to keep up and they stole 3 techs from me so I'm in the process of wiping them from the face of the planet. At this point I could've won space race awhile ago but my score is 10250 so I think I might turn it into a milk game and go for a personal best.

I had over 500 Modern Armor before the Sumeria invasion started now I'm down to 371 (They had 500 MI when I started) but I've suffered the worst of the losses at this point, I could take them out with my 24 armies if I wanted to. I already razed their Apollo Program so I just have to take them out before they get to 160K culture.

I agree Communism is a great government if you are large enough to make it useful. I also had great land with a lot rivers which helps a lot too. I abandoned Paris just to see how much Smith's Trading Co was saving me and it turned out to be ~480gpt. I'd be interested to see how I would've faired if I stayed in Republic but I doubt it would've been nearly as well.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/upload...y_-_1720AD.SAV

If you stay in republic and do everything well, you could have won with any victory condition you like well before 1720 AD

Communism is great indeed if you build an empire like that. Republic plays a totally different game though, with a moderatly small productive core and ICS in the rest of the empire.
Since build this republic style empire long before you get to communism, you can't just swich, the republic style empire will not work in communism.
Building a communism ready empire in advance of it being available wastes too much in the middle ages.

[Aceman101]

Originally Posted by MAS

No, gold rushing mans you pay for overwork. Pop-rushing means you work citizens to death under force of a "whip." Thats why republic and demo have gold rushing, but despotism and communism have pop-rushing

That's good then.

Originally Posted by MAS

I was talking about civil engineer, not police man.

I know but I'm just curious (And excited) about the new specialists in civ3c. But civil engineers are units... .

Originally Posted by MAS

Police reduce corruption and waste, civil engineer add +2 shields to city improvement construction. (not units) They are both available in the industrial age.

I thought civil engineers were units . Civil engineers don't sound that useful. Only +2 shields... But then again if I had an uncorrupt city that had a huge surplus in food. It would be allright. But getting red of corruption with policemen sounds more usefull. Unless police men only clear 2 corruption from that city they are in?

Originally Posted by MAS

I'm not sure but I think the police man comes at the same time as the police station, and the civil engineer comes with factories. (though your city doesn't need to have either a police station or factory, they can be used in empty cities too.)

Do you need a police station to build police men? I'm guessing not.

Originally Posted by MAS

More about how to use them here: The Role of the Specialist Citizen
The lower part of this guide is about conquest, but the principles are the same for all versions.

Good article I've read it before.

Originally Posted by MAS

It causes unhappiness, disorder only happens when you have too much unhappiness.

Having to pup rush tens of cities would cause civil disorder??? wouldn't it . Unless you put the lux slider to 100% but that wouldn't be good.

Thanks for helping me with the last few posts . It's people like you that help me get more experienced.

[Siaphi94]

isnt communal corruption better than nuisance which is in republic?

[MAS]

Originally Posted by Siaphi94

isnt communal corruption better than nuisance which is in republic?

If you make a 1 on 1 comparison between a well developed communist empire and a well developed republic empire, the communist empire would be more powerful. Maybe not for research in C3C, (because nothing beats the 3 beaker scientist in science farms for that) but it will be able to produce more units per turn.

However, communism comes in the industrial age. So you have to use a different government before that. regardless of what that government is, your best city placements will be the same. Size 12 for your core, and CxC for your outland!

But such a city plan is very bad for communism. If you wanted to use communism, you'll need all your cities to be well developed size 20 metro's.

So you have 2 options:
1: remodel your empire. A waste of resources, and a lot of work, you'll be better of sticking with what you have, the game is almost won anyway by this time.
2: model your empire from the start for communism. This way, you'll be much weaker in the early turns, I mean, the AA and MA. And the early turns are the most important turns.
In fact, if you use republic, and model your empire for republic, you'll be able to win the game even before you even reach the industrial age.

[Nitfan]

I completely agree that usually it's too much work to revamp your empire to make communism effective. The game just kind of unfolded the way it did and the wide city spacing just gave me a reason to go commi. After all ICS is definitely how your are going to win the game but developing a communist juggernaut on Deity was definetly more fun! And that's why we all play the game in the first place so winning asap isn't always the objective.

Beating up on Sumeria instead of just launching my ship was very satisfying, and I can't stand when civs steal techs from me.

A quick question regarding spy experience levels...If you are in communism with veteran spies is it harder for other civs to steal things from you or does it just increase your chances of stealing things from someone else?

[PrinceMyshkin]

Originally Posted by AceMan101

Do you need a police station to build police men? I'm guessing not.

No. You gain the ability to use police officers when you know nationalism. Police stations come with the communism tech and civil engineers are available with replaceable parts.

Originally Posted by AceMan101

Having to pup rush tens of cities would cause civil disorder??? wouldn't it . Unless you put the lux slider to 100% but that wouldn't be good.

Just don't whip cities that are near disorder. Eventually they will "recharge" their happiness and you can whip again. Or just use specialists in these cities to make sure they don't go into disorder on the next turn, rather than turn the lux-slider up empirewide.

Originally Posted by Aceman101

I thought civil engineers were units . Civil engineers don't sound that useful. Only +2 shields... But then again if I had an uncorrupt city that had a huge surplus in food. It would be allright. But getting red of corruption with policemen sounds more usefull. Unless police men only clear 2 corruption from that city they are in?

Civil engineers are often very useful. A size 12 city only needs to work two or three irrigated-railroaded tiles to maintain size. That's potentially nine or ten civil engineers for 18-20 shields. These cities can build couthouses in three or four turns. Fully irrigated-railroaded metros can build many improvents in one or two turns with civil engineers. IIRC factories also multiply these shields so that each engineer adds three shields.

Originally Posted by MAS

4: unit disband the courthouse, (you can even build units just for the purpose of disbanding them in less productive cities, this way, you core helps your newer cities.)

Just to add one little trick to MAS excellent advice in this post. Under communism, you can also draft two units per turn per city or metro. These can often be "gang-disbanded" to build improvements you want, often in one-turn. Just manage happiness or let them "recharge" if you use this too much.

I agree with MAS about communism not helping with an early win. I used to play huge, random continents and had a personal rule to never go to war unless attacked. I wasn't necessarily going for the fastest victory, but a nice advanced empire in the modern age. In these games I switched to democracy if my empire was less than 40-50 cities and communism if greater or if I thought my empire would grow through war. Wars were often not fought until the modern age, when I had all improvements I wanted in all but my newest cities. Then I often captured fully developed metros if a civ attacked. Acquiring all eight luxuries and building maketplaces and other happiness buildings/wonders can be important in maintaining a large empire with many metros. These empires can also maintain spcecialist farms as well. If one were playing such a game a few turns of anarchy are worth a switch to democracy or communism for their powerful benefits in the long run, imo.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Oops, cross-post.

Originally Posted by Nitfan

A quick question regarding spy experience levels...If you are in communism with veteran spies is it harder for other civs to steal things from you or does it just increase your chances of stealing things from someone else?

I usually took all the other civs money in trades for backward tech so they didn't have the money to steal. Veteran spies do help your chances in espionage methods in my experience.

[MAS]

I agree with the playing for fun part, I am currently working on a variant game where the rule is OCP. (optimal city placement, meaning: no or minimal overlap of radius)

I'm not planning for communism for this game, but this kind city placement It sure isn't the best way to win... It does, however, create a very 'pretty' looking empire....

[Aceman101]

Originally Posted by PrinceMyshkin

No. You gain the ability to use police officers when you know nationalism. Police stations come with the communism tech and civil engineers are available with replaceable parts.

So it's when a civ researches nationalism. Good to know

Originally Posted by PrinceMyshkin

Just don't whip cities that are near disorder. Eventually they will "recharge" their happiness and you can whip again. Or just use specialists in these cities to make sure they don't go into disorder on the next turn, rather than turn the lux-slider up empirewide.

That's True. But waiting 20 turns before they are happy again is not always that easy. But that is the sacrifise you have to make to get corrupt cities uncorrupt.

Originally Posted by PrinceMyshkin

Civil engineers are often very useful. A size 12 city only needs to work two or three irrigated-railroaded tiles to maintain size. That's potentially nine or ten civil engineers for 18-20 shields. These cities can build couthouses in three or four turns. Fully irrigated-railroaded metros can build many improvents in one or two turns with civil engineers. IIRC factories also multiply these shields so that each engineer adds three shields.

Yes - I just havn't tried civil engineers so I am probably underestimating them. But how much corruption do police officers clear up? is it a certain percantage of total corrupt shields?

Originally Posted by PrinceMyshkin

Just to add one little trick to MAS excellent advice in this post. Under communism, you can also draft two units per turn per city or metro. These can often be "gang-disbanded" to build improvements you want, often in one-turn. Just manage happiness or let them "recharge" if you use this too much.

Yes - And if there are still barbarians around would it be a good idea to train up conscript troops?

[PrinceMyshkin]

Originally Posted by Aceman101

Yes - I just havn't tried civil engineers so I am probably underestimating them. But how much corruption do police officers clear up? is it a certain percantage of total corrupt shields?

Take a look at the following screenshots from a recent Russian emperor game in Republic government.


The first screen shows a typical developed metro from this empire with five corrupt shields in the production box and eight corrupt commerce. Note this city produces modern armor every three turns and 82 beakers a turn with the slider at 100% science. The second screen shows what happens with one police officer. The police officer takes one corrupted shield and commerce out of the box for no net change on modern armor production time and science is still 82 beakers. The third screen shows the effect of four police officers removing four corrupted shields and commerce from the box. Now Samara has exactly enough shields to produce modern armor every two turns with only a two beaker drop in science output. The last screen shows with five officers all corruption is removed in production and Samara now has only 3 corrupted commerce for no real difference in city output or production rates. It seems that each police officer removes one corrupted shield and one corrupted commerce as applied to science. It takes quite a bit of MM to get the most out of police officers. Just change each specialist one by one and use your own judgement as to what produces the best effect. In a fully corrupt city under Republic gov't even many police might make no difference.

Originally Posted by Aceman101

Yes - And if there are still barbarians around would it be a good idea to train up conscript troops?

I doubt any barbarians still around by the time your empire has nationalism would be any problem for your civ to handle without drafting.

[Aceman101]

Originally Posted by PrinceMyshkin

Take a look at the following screenshots from a recent Russian emperor game in Republic government.
Attachment 150041 Attachment 150042 Attachment 150043 Attachment 150044

The first screen shows a typical developed metro from this empire with five corrupt shields in the production box and eight corrupt commerce. Note this city produces modern armor every three turns and 82 beakers a turn with the slider at 100% science. The second screen shows what happens with one police officer. The police officer takes one corrupted shield and commerce out of the box for no net change on modern armor production time and science is still 82 beakers. The third screen shows the effect of four police officers removing four corrupted shields and commerce from the box. Now Samara has exactly enough shields to produce modern armor every two turns with only a two beaker drop in science output. The last screen shows with five officers all corruption is removed in production and Samara now has only 3 corrupted commerce for no real difference in city output or production rates. It seems that each police officer removes one corrupted shield and one corrupted commerce as applied to science. It takes quite a bit of MM to get the most out of police officers. Just change each specialist one by one and use your own judgement as to what produces the best effect. In a fully corrupt city under Republic gov't even many police might make no difference.

Thanks for that . That showed me a good idea of how effective police officers are.

Originally Posted by PrinceMyshkin

I doubt any barbarians still around by the time your empire has nationalism would be any problem for your civ to handle without drafting.

Yes - that's true.