Team Free Embassy

[tomasjj]

Yeah, you are right, mate.
Am all tense this morning. Sorry.

I was thinking out of a upper or lower branch tech path perspective, and thinking about the long run. Obviously, we won't need to build banks soon, as we need markets first, but we are commercial so I thought maybe we wanted to go that branch. I was, as usual, thinking aloud though.

[zyxy]

Don't worry tomasjj, your contributions are greatly valued! I personally think all reasonable options should be put on the table, so that we can examine them. My opinion is that markets will certainly be valuable, because some 30-40% of our income will go to tax. Banks are perhaps less useful, though they can make a difference in wartime.

I think the division of research is not so important. It depends on quite a few factors as donsig says, and in any case we'll both get all the techs involved. More important perhaps is to decide what conditions we like (nontrading?) and which techs to include (all required techs? Some optionals?)

I think it's ok to include all required techs. As for optionals, I would include MilTrad, and perhaps nothing else. The techs that only give a wonder (like Music or FreeArt) cannot really be included IMO because only one of us can build the wonder...

I would somehow like to develop a relationship with SABER, but really don't know how...

As for wonders we should perhaps also consider which ones will grant our GA.

[sirdanilot]

As for the wonders, well, the great lighthouse is commercial, so we only need a scientific wonder in addition to that.

Has anyone built the mausoleum of mausollos yet?

But maybe we should wait untill we get hwachas...

edit: Are we going for Democracy?

[tomasjj]

I agree on getting some trading going with SABER. What techs are they lacking that we can actually part with without kicking up a big fuzz?

I guess they don't have much we want atm since we popped currency?

[zyxy]

Unfortunately SABER has no techs that we lack . We have a lot of tech to offer to them, and they will probably realize by now we have a full tech alliance with someone else.

I propose to send this letter to FREE shortly to tell them of our research plan:

Dear FREE,

We have received the secrets of Mysticism. Thank you!

We have sent Currency with the latest save. Should you for some reason wish not to receive this technology yet, then you can simply not accept the deal, and we can send it again at a later stage.

We are not entirely sure what you want us to do concerning Polytheism. But as we can research it quicker than you in your present condition and as CommandoBob suggested a swap, we have started research on this tech and expect to have it in 6 turns. We hope this is ok with you!

Best regards,
The Council

EDIT: Sent to Team FREE under the title "Mystified ", 21/5/2007.

[Aigburth]

Note looks good, middle ages in 6 turns!

[General_W]

Looks very good.
I agree with sending that asap.

[zyxy]

I've sent it.

[donsig]

Originally Posted by sirdanilot

edit: Are we going for Democracy?

I think we talked about goverments earlier and concluded that democracy wouldn't be that much of an advantage over republic. But my memory could be failing me.

The optional techs are tricky. I hope we won't need military tradition but we surely don't want to put ourselves into a position where we can't get it. Same for chivalry. We may also want economics (for Smith's) or one of the optional techs for a wonder back-up. I agree we dont' want to include optional techs in MAAP II but I think we must make MAAP II flexible enough to allow either us or FREE to research an optional tech if we want. I have no idea how to go about that - which is another reason to start with a mini-MAAP that just gets us to educatin and invention or gunpowder. An alternative is to ask FREE if they want any optional techs (in addition to military tradition) included in MAAP II. Can we add a paragraph to the letter:

We're also doing some thinking about a new MAAP. We'd like to include military tradition in our new agreement but are unsure if we should include any other optional techs. What are your thoughts on this?

We could also ask them about their thoughts on trading under the new MAAP. I wouldn't hold up the current letter for lots of discussion in this. If this is too sensitive an issue we can send the proposed letter and discuss this for the next note.

EDIT: zyxy and I are cross posting again. Well, let's discuss what to say in our next letter.

[AutomatedTeller]

we should tell FREE when Poly will be done, at least approximately, so as to allow them to deal with barb camps!!

[General_W]

I want to toss in my 2 cents on the MAAP II proposal.

I think a more limited agreement to just get us to Theology and Invention is fine, but I think it should more of a "let's agree to this while we nail down the details of a full MAAP II agreement"

If we come across as only wanting the deal to last for 4 techs – we risk creating more feelings of paranoia on FREE's side that we're not fully committed to the Alliance. Given the recent misunderstanding, I think we really want to avoid that.

Therefore, I think we should draft a full-bodied MAAP II to send to FREE, and if they don't immediately agree to it, we can propose a temporary solution to cover the bridge into the Middle Ages while we finalize a full deal.

I'd propose something like this:

A New Age Dawns
Approximately Turn 95 – We enter the Middle Ages and swap Bonus techs, if applicable.
For the purposes of insuring both sides against risk, we hereby agree to trade our bonus techs without respect to their beaker value… ie, if one team gets Feudalism and the other gets Monotheism, the team that got Feudalism will NOT be considered 120 beakers short in trade balance.

Since The Council is researching the last tech needed to advance to the Middle Ages (polytheism) we will be the first to enter the new age. Unfortunately, game mechanics prevent us from sending our bonus era tech on the same turn as we send Polytheism. Therefore FREE will enter the MA as soon as they get the save, and could possibly draw the same bonus tech as The Council. Also of consideration is that The Council will be suffering from a revolt to Republic immediately after the era advancement, while team FREE will already be in Republic.

Balancing out the Ancient Age
First a bit of clean up from the Ancient Age… Since The Council was able to secure a deal with Saber for Warrior Code (FREE's side) and The Wheel (Council's Side) – and because The Council has taken on researching Polytheism from FREE's side of the tree - the original MAAP deal beaker counts are off.
It is The Council's opinion that in the interest of goodwill, we should just count The Wheel and Warrior Code as being a wash. We don't think it would be very neighborly to expect you to repay us for Warrior Code when we just got it from Saber. Hence, we propose just deleting those items from the MAAP and counting everything as being in balance between us on that knowledge.

[NOTE: not to be included in this letter – what I've actually done on my spreadsheet is left Warrior Code on Free's side, but made it worth 0 beakers. Wheel stayed on our side, and became worth 30 beakers so that the overall trade balance didn't change. You could argue that this actually helps us because we get 30 beakers "for free" because we traded for it – which is actually how I personally view it. The other position is that it helps FREE because they didn't have to do any work for the jump in beakers. I really doubt they'll argue the point, especially since I'm proposing that we're be very magnanimous on Currency. It's a small point, and I think we should just gloss over it as I'm attempting to do here]

That still leaves Polytheism to deal with. Since we're doing it instead of you, that actually has us leaving the Ancient Era with a 720 beaker heavier load than you!
However, in an effort to demonstrate even more goodwill, we've decided not to count our knowledge of Currency on the MAAP either, even though it took quite a bit of work and strategic planning on our side to get it. This is a 480 beaker swing in your favor! and brings the total imbalance down to 210 beakers that you would owe us leaving the Ancient Age.

In practice, it turns out to be pretty difficult to find a tech swapping agreement of MA techs that will balance out 210 beakers. Would FREE consider paying the Council just 40% of that beaker value in gold and then we call things even?

Well, I'm out of time now – my break is over! I will continue this when I get a chance… but I wanted to post what I had done so that others can comment / offer ideas for balancing out the treaty.

Ideas?

EDIT: Note – I spent a fair amount of time on my lunch break playing with a spreadsheet to balance out 210 beakers in MA trades and couldn't find a good way to do it. It's complicated by that fact that we don't know what the Bonus techs will be… but my gut tells me it's probably best to just get the gold and start with a clean slate.
I'd be happy to hear other ideas.

[donsig]

I think the part about gold to correct the imbalance is ok. Won't they have a few turns of no anarchy while we finish polytheism? If so then they can shut off research and make 84g in a couple turns.

I still think we should suggest a formal mini-MAAP up front. I concur with your reasoning General (that FREE could construe it as our attempt to wiggle free from the alliance) but by packaging it with the bigger proposal you've begun we can dampen that. I just don't see how we're going to come up with a full proposal in time.

At the very least we already know we want them to start researching monotheism (or theology if one of us gets monotheism free). Let's get that nailed down.

[Aigburth]

Email in from FREE: -

Dear Council,

We are grateful that you will learn Polytheism, as from what I've been told the scientists in FREE are too lazy to actually do any research.

To even up the ledger a little, we are willing to send you half our gpt once we become a Republic until the time you learn the secrets of Polytheism, including the turn you research it.

Regarding a plan for the Middle Ages, we have early plans for one which is being fine tuned to something that our team would like as we speak.

Lastly, what do SABER know of us, if anything? Do they even know if we exist?

FREE-Council Ambassador;

azzaman333

Any ideas when FREE will be out of anarchy? I'm trying to work out how much gold their proposal will equate to. I don't really understand the 'including the turn you research it' bit, as we play before them, the turn we research poly Free will be able to start research on their first MA tech.

Regarding their query on SABER, no harm in telling them that SABER knows we have another contact but do not know who that contact is. Do we want to give them any more info? such as we know SABER have another contact but apparently are not trading with them.

[donsig]

Originally Posted by Aigburth

Any ideas when FREE will be out of anarchy? I'm trying to work out how much gold their proposal will equate to.

They say they will be in anarchy for 9 turns. (I have never seen an anarchy last that long!) They were in anarchy as early as May 16 (turn 84 or 85) but it may have been sooner. My hunch is they are offereing more than we were going to ask for (40% of 210 or 84g.) If so we should obviously take it.

We should tell them we've been mum about who are contact is. Should we tell them though that our reluctance to make certain trades will most likely have cause SABER to figure out who we've met?

Another question is, do we hold off on proposing any MAAP II and just wait to see their proposal?

[sirdanilot]

The key to diplomacy is to wait what the other offers, obviously. So don't send anything about the second MAAP untill they define their own proposal. I think we should make an email with that SABER knows we have another contact, but not that we know that SABER has one too.

[AutomatedTeller]

I'd like to hold off until they make a proprosal. give them a chance to most of the heavy lifting

I'm fine with telling them that SABER does not know who our contact is. I don't see any reason to speculate as to what SABER might or might not have figured out.

We have 6 turns of research to do on polytheism - how many turns of that will they be out of anarchy?

[zyxy]

I agree that the free techs should be swapped without further compensation. This is already covered in the MAAP.

Concerning the AA cleanup: I think we shouldn't even mention the WC-Wheel deal. This was settled long ago to everyone's satisfaction, and was certainly not a bad deal for FREE.

I don't quite understand the calculation concerning Poly and Currency . But anyway, I think we don't need to "compensate" FREE for Currency, and they don't seem to think so either. Then the cleanup of the AA is reduced to the swap of Poly (360 beakers) to our side. This means FREE would have to do 360 beakers extra in the MA.

FREE's anarchy was first noted on turn 84 and so should end on turn 93. We would have Poly on turn 94, so in their proposal we would get half their gpt production for 2 turns? Not enough I think. I prefer to get the beakers repayed in a new tech deal. Btw, their letter is not completely clear that they want a new trade deal with us.

EDIT: Oh, and btw, FREE leads in score, so they don't need our help.

[AutomatedTeller]

perhaps a better return is that they start researching something while *we* are in anarchy.

[General_W]

Good points – I forget about how far ahead FREE is… if anything, we should be getting extra consideration from them!
Let's just see if we can get a full 360 beakers compensation for Polytheism and not mention the rest of it.

I disagree with just waiting for FREE to propose the MAAP II agreement. There's a tremendous amount of power in the being the one to write the first draft. It sets the tone and starting point for the negotiations – and if it's reasonably fair, it will be hard for FREE to find someone willing to put in all the hard work and effort to redraft a balanced proposal.
Witness their acceptance of our original MAAP almost without complaint.

Still – it might be best in the meantime to just propose that FREE work on path to Theology after the Era jump, and we'll nail down a MAAP II after we see the Bonus techs.

@AT – are you suggesting that we shut off our research and stockpile gold during anarchy like FREE will be doing? It's an interesting idea, but I don't see how that really helps the situation, as we'll still have to balance our trades out in the MA, and that solution just puts both teams behind in the research game. Am I having a brain freeze on this?

I'm going to keep working on some potential MAAP II ideas so that we can be ready to roll once we hit the MA.
If everyone still thinks we should just wait for FREE this time, I'm ok with that… but as mentioned, I think it's better to control the initial stage for negotiations.

[zyxy]

I agree it is better to take the initiative.

Problem with tech division is that a lot depends on the free techs that we get. But part of the division can be solved if we start from the end:

• Physics + ToG is just as much as Metallurgy + Magnetism. Besides, these 4 techs have to be researched last, so they will have to be equally divided. Unless we include MilTrad, then the division can be altered.
• It will probably be quite inconvenient to have a lot of switches for any team from the lower branch to the upper or vice versa. This means one of us will do Mono+Theo+Edu+Astro (5280 beakers) and the other will do Feud+Eng+Inv+Gunp+Chem (6600 beakers). Obviously the real price of each path will depend on the free techs, and Banking (1560) and MilTrad (if we want to include it) can be used to even things out, I hope.

This suggests that if we both get Mono as free tech, then perhaps FREE should start on the lower branch because it's more expensive. Otherwise they can probably start on the upper.

Maybe the best option is to first nail down the principles of MAAP II, and fill in the techs when we know the free techs?

We perhaps need to decide whether to include MilTrad. I would be inclined not to do that, since we can defend our shores by blocking, and hence only need cavs for offensive adventures.