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Old Apr 29, 2007, 01:50 AM   #161
Aigburth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter grimes View Post
I find it hard to imagine that they'd be done with Republic in only 13 turns... 30 would seem more appropriate.

but then again, it's been a long time since I've played civ3
They made that estimate of 13 turns about 2 turns into their research, Republic is 840 beakers, to research in 15 turns would require 56 bpt, we are currently outputting 64 bpt so it seems about right. their bpt should be steadily increasing so they may me able to shave a turn or two of that estimate especially if they build some library's.
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Old Apr 29, 2007, 10:58 AM   #162
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Wow - it seems like it took a couple dozen turns to research during the last MTDG. Ahh, those were the days
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Old Apr 30, 2007, 03:21 PM   #163
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Addressing a topic from the Saber Embassy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donsig
I'm still not sure it's even in our best interest to trade any more with SABER. Not only does construction for currency and mysticsm mean negotiations with FREE over revising MAAP (and the possibility of us having to compensate them) but SABER benefits more than we do. We can research currency ourselves while FREE learns mysticsm and we can do it faster than SABER can research construction. We're trying to build an edge here but the proposed trade chips away at it.

If we really want to put our cards on the table let's tone down the suggestion and just flat out tell SABER that The Council is not of one mind on this yet.
Rather than tell Saber that we just can't make up our minds, I think it'd be better to make them wait just a tiny bit longer, and then go ahead and make up our minds on whether or not we think a trade for Currency & (HBR/Myst?) is worthwhile.

I'd argue that it really is a good deal, as it gets us into the MA much more rapidly than any of our enemies are going to be able to. Yes it gets Saber there a bit sooner also, but really, the teams we're afraid of (especially if they get the Great Lighthouse) are Babe and Gong… and we'll be leaving them FAR in the dust with each extra trade we can make.
In my opinion, making another trade with Saber is the best thing we can do to take out an "insurance policy" against the prospect of Babe or Gong getting the Torch.
There's also the side benefit of helping to keep a better relationship with our Saber Neighbors.

The biggest hang-up is getting FREE to agree to the trade and finding a way to make things balance.
I don't think this is going to be too difficult. Off the top of my head, we can just offer to split any gold we stockpile while waiting for FREE to finish their end of the AA research with them.

It breaks down like this:
Saber gives Currency & Horseback Riding
Council beaker advantage = 660

Solution = The Council Researches Polytheism (giving us a 60 beaker heavier load than FREE), so FREE gives us 50% of gold they stockpile while waiting for us to finish.

- OR -

Saber gives Currency & Mysticism
Council beaker advantage = 390

Solution = The Council Researches Polytheism & FREE researches Horseback Riding (giving us a 30 beaker heavier load than FREE), so FREE gives us 50% of gold they stockpile while waiting for us to finish.

- OR –

Solution = We can just leave the MAAP as is, and when The Council Finishes early, we just stockpile gold and feed 50% of it to FREE.
All-in-all, I think we've got plenty of flexibility to make things work with FREE.

And Bottom line – this trade benefits the Alliance, because no matter which of my proposed solutions you choose, The Council (and FREE) will reach the Middle Ages faster, and with extra gold in our pocket (vs. doing all the research ourselves.)

We could send these proposals to FREE, but I think there's still some dispute among the Council on whether or not we want to aggressively purse this trade with Saber.
I urge The Council to reach some kind of consensus on this soon – or else we can just break down and hold a vote so that we can proceed.

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Old Apr 30, 2007, 04:01 PM   #164
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Umm, Epsilon?

I think I agree with you though, a trade is better than no trade under these circumstances.
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Old Apr 30, 2007, 05:02 PM   #165
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I also agree a trade is better than no trade, both because we speed up our research (still leaving SABER somewhat behind) and because we can get good relations with SABER. We also should start to think about the Middle Ages, as our tech deal with FREE ends when we swap MA techs. The MA has two tech paths with some small branches. So 2 partners is too much... Do we want a long term research treaty with one of them, or a more flexible approach? Of course if SBER is far behind then they will not be able to contribute much...

Btw, 1 beaker is worth slightly less than 1 gold, because we have libraries but no markets (and will probably not build them for a while). The exchange factor is somewhere between 1 and 1.5, so in case research effort has to be evened I would prefer to receive rather than give gold.

I think SABER will not like to research HBR or Myst. Most likely they are researching either CoL or Lit, and want to head for Republic. Maybe we can aim to get Currency (480) + 60 gold for Construction (600).

Mysticism, HBR and Poly are monopolies as far as we know. It would be good if we could have at least two of them on our side of the research division, so that would be Poly + Myst, with HBR shifting to FREE. This almost evens out the research effort I think, maybe slightly more on our side.

We need to know what to do at the latest in about 8 turns (when construction finishes). So there's not a lot of time, especially with FREE's response times.
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Old Apr 30, 2007, 05:36 PM   #166
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Good points zyxy.

So, we could send a proposal to FREE giving them options like this:
Saber gives Currency & Horseback Riding
Council beaker advantage = 660

Solution = The Council researches Polytheism (giving us a 60 beaker heavier load than FREE), so FREE gives us 50% of gold they stockpile while waiting for us to finish.

- OR -


Saber gives Currency & Mysticism
Council beaker advantage = 390

Solution = The Council researches Polytheism & FREE researches Horseback Riding (giving us a 30 beaker heavier load than FREE), so FREE gives us 50% of gold they stockpile while waiting for us to finish.

- OR –


Saber gives Currency & 60(?) Gold
Council beaker advantage = 480 + 60 gold


Solution = We split the 60 gold. Then The Council researches Mysticism and Polytheism & FREE researches Horseback Riding (giving us a 150 beaker heavier load than FREE), so FREE gives us 50% of gold they stockpile while waiting for us to finish.
And then, obviously, we'd send these 3 options to Saber also.


I really doubt FREE will object to the 50% split of the gold (because I don't think they're paying that close of attention) – but if they do, we can either agree to taking 40% of what they stockpile, or else object that A) we deserve some credit for making these deals happen with Saber and/or B) That because our research is faster we're doing the alliance a favor by taking on the extra load of beakers and it's only fair for them to compensate by coughing up a bit extra gold.

Looking good?

EDIT: if gold is worth a max of 1.5 beakers at this stage, shouldn't it be at least 80 gold for Saber to add to Currency to get Const from us?
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Old Apr 30, 2007, 06:17 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zyxy View Post
I also agree a trade is better than no trade, both because we speed up our research (still leaving SABER somewhat behind) and because we can get good relations with SABER. We also should start to think about the Middle Ages, as our tech deal with FREE ends when we swap MA techs. The MA has two tech paths with some small branches. So 2 partners is too much... Do we want a long term research treaty with one of them, or a more flexible approach? Of course if SABER is far behind then they will not be able to contribute much...
I'm still not so sure a trade with SABER is better than no trade. I understand that it gets us to the middle ages faster while still leaving SABER a bit behind us. I just don't have a handle yet on whether getting to the middle ages as fast as we can is good or not. I'm concerned about the barbarians - we don't want to face a horde of uncivilized horsemen - though it would be very nice if the Iroquois and Celts (and even Ottomans) had that trouble. I guess I need to know why we're racing headlong into the middle ages.

Can't think much right now - still have a final project due for school - but I think we want to be more flexible after MAAP. We have the Sistine Chapel as a goal but other than that, what are our research goals? Education and astronomy?
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Old Apr 30, 2007, 06:39 PM   #168
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Donsig, off the top of my head, here's a list of reasons why getting to the MA faster is better.
  • Once we get Medieval Infantry (with Feudalism) we're much safer from any Gallic or Mounted Warriors
  • Engineering is another big boost in our defense. Rapid movement across rivers, and Trebuchets (read: pre-builds for Hwach'a)
  • We get cheap universities, and the sooner we can get them, the better (just like Libraries)
  • Navigation or Magnetism will let us trade luxuries with Free and/or even Saber – making our Republic even more productive and beneficial! Also safe sailing for our ships.
  • Two words… Metallurgy = Hwach'a

All of these things can be accurately described, I believe, as "the sooner the better!"

Yes, there's the pesky matter of the uprising, but we'll be prepared for it, Saber less so, and Gong and Babe not at all.
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Old Apr 30, 2007, 08:11 PM   #169
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Sorry, going back to the 3 trade options with Saber: the Tech we're offering Saber is Construction, right?
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Old Apr 30, 2007, 09:38 PM   #170
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That's right. Construction for one of those 3 options I outlined. (potentially)

Unless you have other ideas?
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Old May 01, 2007, 05:27 AM   #171
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I like the proposed deals, I like to get out of the Ancient Times in a hurry, I don't fear barb uprisings (just leave a border town empty with 10g in the bank...).
General, prepare an offer, please
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Old May 01, 2007, 07:23 AM   #172
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I'm still skeptical but there's not harm in talking to SABER (and FREE) about potential trades. One thing I think we need to be careful of is SABER trading to GONG and BABE. There's no point rushing ahead only to have all our hard work filtered over to GONG and BABE. Remember we're all equisistant from one another whether we have curraghs or galleys. If the other teams haven't figured that out yet they will soon. Contacts between everyone are actually more likely if they all stay away from map making - suicide curraghs are cheaper than suicide galleys and can achieve the same results on this map. Let's see what SABER thinks about trades with GONG, BABE and FREE.
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Old May 01, 2007, 07:41 AM   #173
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SABER had expressed interest in a 'No Trading the Received Tech' clause earlier... But we'd have to get them to make an exception so that we could trade on to FREE.

Maybe something along these lines:
Since we're only able to trade you Construction because Free has made an exception for you, you should make an exception for us (and Free), and not trade these techs [CB, WC, whatever we give them] to Gong or Babe.

It's cumbersome, but it just might work
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Old May 01, 2007, 10:52 AM   #174
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Proposal looks quite good to me. Some questions and comments:
Quote:
Originally Posted by General_W View Post
...so FREE gives us 50% of gold they stockpile while waiting for us to finish...
Why not simply half the beaker difference in gold? Much easier and less open to abuse. Or do you think we will get more this way?

Quote:
I really doubt FREE will object to the 50% split of the gold (because I don't think they're paying that close of attention) – but if they do, we can either agree to taking 40% of what they stockpile, or else object that A) we deserve some credit for making these deals happen with Saber and/or B) That because our research is faster we're doing the alliance a favor by taking on the extra load of beakers and it's only fair for them to compensate by coughing up a bit extra gold.
FREE paying 50% is more than fair, I don't see why we should accept anything less. After all, we have made efforts to meet people, and lost a few ships in the process, whereas all they have done is paddle around their continent . And don't forget, they are not our junior partner (yet): they research about equally fast, and they probably have more cities and workers than we do. EDIT: and they are second in score.

Quote:
EDIT: if gold is worth a max of 1.5 beakers at this stage, shouldn't it be at least 80 gold for Saber to add to Currency to get Const from us?
No, the other way around I think. Normally (without libs/markets) you would pay half the beaker difference in gold. With libs but no markets, 1 gold is worth more than 1 beaker. You can try this by playing with the sliders and looking at the gold and beaker output of The Chamber.

@donsig: I want to research as fast as possible because I want to launch a spaceship . And there's only one barb camp on our land, which we can disperse about 15 turns from now (with a settler), which should be before the age change .
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Old May 01, 2007, 11:15 AM   #175
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Ok – sounds like we're all pretty much in agreement on this now!

Before the letter, some quick clean-up responses…
Quote:
Originally Posted by zyxy
Why not simply half the beaker difference in gold? Much easier and less open to abuse. Or do you think we will get more this way?
Well, I picked the way I did because I think it's likely to be more fair. (though, as you note, it is potentially more open to abuse, if FREE lies to us). The reason it's more fair, is because it's difficult to say exactly how fast either team is researching. 50% of the beaker cost difference, may take almost all of the money FREE stockpiles… making them upset. Or, on the flip side, it may only end up being 20% of what they manage to accumulate… a pretty poor deal for us.
The way I've written it (as long as everyone is honest) both teams will enter the MA at the same time and with the same amount of bonus gold guaranteed.

I'm going to go ahead and leave the proposal this way, but I'm ok with changing the distribution to just 50% of the beaker difference if The Council feels that is better.

And I agree with the rest of the stuff you said zyxy. Thanks for the clarifications!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Grimes
SABER had expressed interest in a 'No Trading the Received Tech' clause earlier... But we'd have to get them to make an exception so that we could trade on to FREE.
I totally appreciate the sentiment here, but I think it's really not going to be worth the effort.
At the end of the day, we're just ensuring that Saber is real clear that we're going to essentially double the knowledge they give up by turning around and immediately trading it. This alone may kill their willingness to trade with us – even without us rubbing their noses in it.
Further more, if we try to say "look, we're going to immediately trade your knowledge to get us even more knowledge, but we want you to agree to not trade with anyone" – they will rightly just laugh at us and decline the deal.
If we want to have any hope of Saber accepting our proposed trade, I think we need to stay as far away from this topic as possible.

And with that - here's a draft of the letter I'd like to send a bit later today. I think we're all agreed on the major themes here, but if you see anything specific to the letter, please speak up, and I'll modify it before sending!


Spoiler for version 1:

Dear Allies at FREE,

Warmest greeting from The Council!

We're still waiting to hear back from you about future details with Saber, so in the meantime, we've drafted some more concrete proposals that we hope you'll agree will greatly benefit our alliance.

We'd like to approach Saber and offer to trade them our knowledge of Construction (which we hope to have in about 9 turns).

In exchange, we're hoping to get knowledge of Currency (which Saber already has) and either Horseback Riding, Mysticism, or 60 gold.
Here's how we could balance out our MAAP deal with you after this trade.
(Note: this balancing also includes the previous trade with Saber which left us with a 30 beaker advantage on the MAAP)
Option 1: Saber gives Currency & Horseback Riding
Council beaker advantage = 660

Solution = The Council researches Polytheism (giving us a 60 beaker heavier load than FREE), so FREE shares 50% of gold they stockpile while waiting for The Council to finish the last AA tech.

- OR -


Option 2: Saber gives Currency & Mysticism
Council beaker advantage = 390

Solution = The Council researches Polytheism & FREE researches Horseback Riding (giving us a 30 beaker heavier load than FREE), so FREE shares 50% of gold they stockpile while waiting for The Council to finish the last AA tech.

- OR –


Option 3: Saber gives Currency & 60(?) Gold
Council beaker advantage = 510 + 60 gold


Solution = We split the 60(?) gold. Then The Council researches Mysticism and Polytheism & FREE researches Horseback Riding (giving us a 150 beaker heavier load than FREE), so FREE shares 50% of gold they stockpile while waiting for The Council to finish the last AA tech.
No matter which of these 3 options Saber picks, (assuming they're willing to pick any of them), Our Alliance will enter the Middle Ages that much faster, and with an equal amount of extra gold in both of our pockets to fund rapid initial research. We still won't be helping Saber to get to Republic, and they'll still be far behind us.

We believe this is a real win-win for both of us, but per our agreement with you, we'll need your approval before we do anything with Saber.

Please respond as soon as possible so that we don't let this opportunity slip by. Our chances to make a good deal with Saber will go down significantly if they manage to meet another team.

Please note – if you agree to this, this will certainly be the last deal we conduct with Saber in the Ancient Era.

Looking forward to hearing back from you!
Your brothers in blue,

General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


Look good?
EDIT: please read version 2 below!
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Old May 01, 2007, 01:13 PM   #176
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Just got a letter from FREE!

Quote:
Dear General_W and the wise peoples of The Council,

Please forgive my tardiness in responding to your last message. Managing the FREE Empire has taken away time I did devote to communicating with our friends in The Council. I've been posting and PMing and playing and getting elections set up and have neglected my personal messages. This is my lapse, not yours.

I have just posted your last communique for FREE to read.

We have received your gifts of The Wheel and Warrior Code. They have revealed to us places of amazing beasts we call 'Horsies' and shown us a good use for these things. (Note: Some of FREE insist we should build something called a 'race track' and wager golden coins on which of these beasts will run faster than the other. Others want to climb on top of the Horsies and stand up on the backs of them while they are running. One or two desire to combine the cows and horses together into something called a 'cattle drive'. )

I'm shooting from the hip, here, not having time to consult with Team FREE. I would suggest to continue to explore the possible trades with SABER. If they can research for us, then let them have that privelge.

I understand keeping the price of Code of Laws high for SABER. Would that prevent the transfer of MapMaking to us? That is, if you have been able to learn it.

I have a question on navigation I would like to ask.

The Chamsuri visited us from our north. We see in that direction a gap of two sea tiles and then coastal waters. Was this stretch of open sea the only one this gallant vessel traversed? We too have a curragh exploring around land and it will soon be braving the open sea. We are just curious to know how lucky the Chamsuri has been in its exploration.

My plan, which I haven't shared with Team FREE yet, (since it only occurred to me last night) is for our curragh are to explore southwards, since exploring north would lead us to you and SABER, while we need to meet GONG and BABE.

(And I promise to check both places for messages on a daily basis. )

CommandoBob
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FREE Turn Player (Temporary)
Let FREEdom Ring
Let the white dove sing...
We could go ahead and still send our draft letter – maybe modified with an "assumed consent" clause.

Something like this?
Version 2.1:
Quote:
Dear Allies at FREE,

Warmest greeting from The Council!
We are intrigued by this horse racing idea… let us know if you can get that set up! Also, we'll be happy to send along the secrets of Map Making with our next save. Sadly, we just missed your note before sending the current turn along.

As for how we found you – we're calling our brave little Curragh the "Unsinkable Chamsuri" – as those brave sailors had to spend 4 turns out in dangerous waters to reach you. We actually sailed south from our landmass to reach the north of your continent. (Due to the North/South wrapping of the World) Weirdly, this puts our land roughly South-West of yours.

Thank you for getting back to us on dealing with Saber! In the meantime, we've drafted some more concrete proposals that we're sure you'll agree will greatly benefit our alliance.

Now that we have your consent to pursue another deal, we'd like to approach Saber and offer to trade them our knowledge of Construction (which we hope to have in about 8 turns).

In exchange, we're hoping to get knowledge of Currency (which Saber already has) and either Horseback Riding, Mysticism, or 60 gold.
Here's how we could balance out our MAAP deal with you after this trade.
(Note: this balancing also includes the previous trade with Saber which left us with a 30 beaker advantage on the MAAP)
Option 1: Saber gives Currency & Horseback Riding
Council beaker advantage = 660

Solution = The Council researches Polytheism (giving us a 60 beaker heavier load than FREE), so FREE shares 50% of gold they stockpile while waiting for The Council to finish the last AA tech.

- OR -


Option 2: Saber gives Currency & Mysticism
Council beaker advantage = 390

Solution = The Council researches Polytheism & FREE researches Horseback Riding (giving us a 30 beaker heavier load than FREE), so FREE shares 50% of gold they stockpile while waiting for The Council to finish the last AA tech.

- OR –


Option 3: Saber gives Currency & 60(?) Gold
Council beaker advantage = 510 + 60 gold


Solution = We split the 60(?) gold. Then The Council researches Mysticism and Polytheism & FREE researches Horseback Riding (giving us a 150 beaker heavier load than FREE), so FREE shares 50% of gold they stockpile while waiting for The Council to finish the last AA tech.
No matter which of these 3 options Saber picks, (assuming they're willing to pick any of them), Our Alliance will enter the Middle Ages that much faster, and with an equal amount of extra gold in both of our pockets to fund rapid initial research. We still won't be helping Saber to get to Republic, and they'll still be far behind us.

We believe this is a real win-win for both of us, but per our agreement with you, we'll need your approval before we finalize anything with Saber.

Since you've given us the green-light to start negotiations, we'll go ahead and send a letter to Saber, and we'll let you know what they say!

Please note – if you & Saber agree to this, it will certainly be the last deal we conduct with Saber in the Ancient Era.

Looking forward to continuing to prosper together with you!
Your brothers in blue,

General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council
I still plan to send this later today, as I think we're all pretty much agreed on this – but please speak up if there are any specifics you have an issue with!
Thanks!


EDIT: note – we should probably agree to send Map Making along to FREE. We really have no grounds for resisting that.
Besides, delaying giving it to them for another 15 turns won't make a difference in beating them to the GLH anyway.
I'm going to include a note about this in the letter.
EDIT2: Added language about Chamsuri and how we found FREE

EDIT3: Sent 5/1/07
To FREE gmail and to CommandoBob via gmail
Title: "Onward to Great Things!"
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Last edited by General_W; May 01, 2007 at 05:28 PM.
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Old May 01, 2007, 01:28 PM   #177
Aigburth
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What about addressing their questions about exploration and map making in this letter?

I don't think we need to give up all our secrets about the map but we could tell them Chumsuri spent about around 4 turns in dangerous waters and that exploring south would probably just find us!

In the spirit of the alliance should we send them map making? We are asking them to hold onto COL for strategical reasons with no real cost to us as COL is of little immediate value.
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Old May 01, 2007, 01:49 PM   #178
Niklas
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I think it looks good. Sorry about my low input right now, hope to get back in the swing soon enough.
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Old May 01, 2007, 01:56 PM   #179
General_W
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@Aigburth – looks like you x-posted with my edit of the letter. I agree that we should send MM right away, and I've added that language to the letter.

Good point on Chamsuri – though, I guess I'd prefer to just be vague about it. Here's the text I'm going to add above:

Quote:
As for how we found you – we're calling our brave little Curragh the "Unsinkable Chamsuri" – as those brave sailors had to spend 4 turns out in dangerous waters to reach you. We actually sailed south from our landmass to reach the north of your continent. (Due to the North/South wrapping of the World) Weirdly, this puts our land roughly South-West of yours.
I think that's good enough. No reason to reveal everything that all our hard work has revealed… we've got more contacts than we can deal with already.

Thanks for the feedback, looks like we're still on track to send this letter, and the one to Saber, before the day is out!
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Old May 01, 2007, 01:57 PM   #180
zyxy
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Looks like CommandoBob is running the show on his own...

We can tell him that we have MapMaking, and I can send it next turn. EDIT: like the letter says...

FREE doesn't know yet that all teams share a similar landmass! (Or did we tell them?) So we could simply say that Chamsuri travelled the ocean for about 4 turns, and that he has not attempted other crossings yet. EDIT: G_W's text looks good to me.
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